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Old
04-17-2013, 02:59 PM
  #126
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There's 0% chance they move Backstrom, as other have stated it would have to be something along the lines of ....

Carlson + Schultz + Wilson / Kuzya and a 1st for Weber and a pick coming back. Not saying I'd do that for either side but it would be pretty close to that I'd think.
Too many what ifs in that package. The odds we move Weber are pretty low, so it's a moot point anyway.

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04-17-2013, 03:02 PM
  #127
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Doesn't Weber have a Luongo style contract?

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04-17-2013, 03:20 PM
  #128
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I don't get why we are talking about the preds trading weber now,since they can't trade him for a entire year.

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04-17-2013, 03:23 PM
  #129
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All right...so what do you have to back that up? I have my 1 precedent (which in actuality could be 3 if you take all Pronger trades- I just chose to use the one with the highest return)...but I'm still waiting on someone else to bring up anything that is a better comparable than the Pronger trade(s).

The packages some people are talking about do not happen. If I'm wrong, and someone can think of an example, by all means share it.

You're right- Pronger forced his way out. And that's the only way I see Nashville trading Weber. It's all well and good to say Nashiville holds the cards, Weber doesn't have a choice...but c'mon- that isn't reality. Players request trades, they get moved.
There isn't a precedent. Because NO ONE trades their franchise dman unless there is special EXTREME circumstances. The Blues traded Pronger because the owner sold the team and mandated a cut in payroll (same summer that Dimetra was let walk for nothing). That isn't happening in Nashville. With the money sunk into the contract already, they are kind of all in with him.

Edmonton traded Pronger because he demanded it - no choice. There is no signs that he wants out of Nashville. (By signing that contract and with Suter leaving he knew there was a chance Nashville would match).

And honestly, if he was unhappy, the Preds would have moved him last year. You can't payout the money they have had too if you think the player will demand a trade a short time later. Trading him after paying 20 million for 1 season is financailly not do able for any team in the NHL.

Pronger was sent to Edmonton by St. Louis. He didn't pick to go there. He played one year and wanted out. Nashville has been the only NHL home Weber has ever known. I don't see any simularities.

You wanted to get his value when you started this thread. You are being given it by fans who rightfully want a ton for him. When you start pointing to other trades with extreme circumstances (which you have admitted were highly unusual) as a reason to set a bar at a certain level, if those circumstances dont exist, you can't point to that bar and say that is his value or use that as an arguement to lower his value. Those circumstances don't exist here and therefor what Pronger returned was mute point.

Erik Johnson (who wasn't an elite dman yet and still isn't) returned a 2 time 25+ goal scorer and the top young dman the Aves had. Shatty replaced EJ for the Blues (who had Pie in the wings) and Stewie gave the Blues a big goal scorer that was very young.

Weber will return more then that. I would go further and state the Blues filled needs. Nashville will want to do the same.

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04-17-2013, 05:17 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by Wizeman View Post
As a Canuck fan, there is no way we are parting with Kassian as a piece to a package. The only way we part with Kassian is overpayment in a stand alone trade.

I would obviously do Edler, but dont forget Webers contract now is negative value.

Edler
Schroeder
1st in 2014
2nd in 2014


I would trade multiple Kassians if I had them. In a heartbeat. And I really like Kass.
Players like Weber - fully developed, in their prime, big, tough, offensively and defensively talented, mean franchise defensemen, are NEVER available. If he was, which he's not, I would most certainly (and so would Mike Gillis) trade Kassian in the package.

Yes, I know the argument is that players like Kassian only come along once in a while, and are NEVER available for trade. But Kass isn't that player yet. And Weber fills our single biggest hole.

If Weber is available, you make that trade every day of the week, and you add to it on Sunday.

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04-18-2013, 02:54 AM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post
OurGocIsAnAwseomeGoc got it from Sam Carchidi, a Flyers beat writer.

Others (including, I think, Dreger) reported the Schenn + Couturier + + ask.

I believe that the highest the Flyers went was Couturier + Read + Mezsaros + 1st, but I can't remember where I got that from.



Weber's worth every penny.
not true. holmgren wouldn't give up couturier in any deal for weber. nice one holmgren.

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04-18-2013, 08:35 AM
  #132
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not true. holmgren wouldn't give up couturier in any deal for weber. nice one holmgren.
I don't think that's the case.

The issue was always Schenn AND Couturier, as I recall from the reports at the time. If Nashville would have accepted a package with one or the other (as well, of course, as additional pieces), there probably would have been a deal.

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04-18-2013, 09:52 AM
  #133
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Don't confuse Weber's season with the win/loss record in Nashville. Weber is still Weber and has been outside of a slow start.

He still is in the top of defensemen in goal scoring, still playing shutdown physical defense, still fights when he needs too and still skates was well as any big defenseme in the game.

As far as him not playing as well as Suter this season, I'll have to disagree, Suter's team has had a better year, Suter has produced more assist that's about it. But this isn't a Suter v. Weber thread, just wanted to point out that Weber did not get worse because Suter left, Nashville overall did, but Weber's individual play hasn't suffered, thanks to Josi.

Nashville's season has been horrible because of bad starts from vets like Erat, SK and Fisher. Then the injury bug hit us hard losing Wilson, Bourque, Hornqvist, Gaustad, Fisher, Yip, etc. I mean how many teams continue playing well when they lose that many of their top players (Wilson, Bourque, Hornqvist and Fisher). Losing Suter did hurt too, manly by reduce our overall dept on the blueline. Josi has done a fantastic job on the blueline replacing Suter but no one has been able to step in to replace Josi on the 2nd pairing with Klein. Hannan was horrible so we've had to turn to rookies like Ellis, Blum and Bartley. At times this year, we played 4 defensemen that did not have a full season under their belt. The talent is there, the experience isn't, Suter leaving really hurt us there, no doubt about it.

We're not in a rebuild, Erat was traded because he was under-preforming, being pushed by rookies like Bourque, Beck and Wilson, and asked to be traded.

The good news is, we've been able to get some young guys like Beck into the line-up and getting good experience. We've found our Bartley can play in the NHL and might make Ellis or Blum expendable. We've gotten Forsberg over and gotten his feet wet in the NHL.

Again, I know this is off topic but keep this in mind before your "they suck full rebuild" stuff.

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04-18-2013, 11:08 AM
  #134
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Originally Posted by Frenzy1 View Post
There isn't a precedent. Because NO ONE trades their franchise dman unless there is special EXTREME circumstances. The Blues traded Pronger because the owner sold the team and mandated a cut in payroll (same summer that Dimetra was let walk for nothing). That isn't happening in Nashville. With the money sunk into the contract already, they are kind of all in with him.

Edmonton traded Pronger because he demanded it - no choice. There is no signs that he wants out of Nashville. (By signing that contract and with Suter leaving he knew there was a chance Nashville would match).

And honestly, if he was unhappy, the Preds would have moved him last year. You can't payout the money they have had too if you think the player will demand a trade a short time later. Trading him after paying 20 million for 1 season is financailly not do able for any team in the NHL.

Pronger was sent to Edmonton by St. Louis. He didn't pick to go there. He played one year and wanted out. Nashville has been the only NHL home Weber has ever known. I don't see any simularities.

You wanted to get his value when you started this thread. You are being given it by fans who rightfully want a ton for him. When you start pointing to other trades with extreme circumstances (which you have admitted were highly unusual) as a reason to set a bar at a certain level, if those circumstances dont exist, you can't point to that bar and say that is his value or use that as an arguement to lower his value. Those circumstances don't exist here and therefor what Pronger returned was mute point.

Erik Johnson (who wasn't an elite dman yet and still isn't) returned a 2 time 25+ goal scorer and the top young dman the Aves had. Shatty replaced EJ for the Blues (who had Pie in the wings) and Stewie gave the Blues a big goal scorer that was very young.

Weber will return more then that. I would go further and state the Blues filled needs. Nashville will want to do the same.
RE: First bolded...it was Weber's agent who flat out said "If you're signing an offer sheet it probably means you don't want to play for that team..."...that, combined with Nashville not being real competitive lately, I don't think it's completely unreasonable to think he could request a trade in the future. BUT, honestly, that's neither here nor there- I didn't want to make this a 'he's getting traded', 'no he isn't', 'yes he is' type thread. Just wanted to go purely from a hypothetical standpoint.

RE: Second bolded...incorrect. Pronger negotiated an extension with Edmonton before the traded- he absolutely did choose to go there. He changed his mind a year later, it happens.

RE: Third bolded...obviously there are going to be differences with any player comparison, but the league works on precedents as far as trades and contracts are concerned. You can't cherry pick the differences and then throw the entire thing out the window, IMHO.

RE: Fourth bolded...good point- EJ was the only other high profile defenseman trade I could think of, but it's a tough one to try and make comparable. A lot more potential for potential than Pronger was or Weber would be. And EJ wasn't a straight up for those assets- the Blues also gave up a 1st rounder and a decent bottom 6 roster player.

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04-18-2013, 11:19 AM
  #135
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Couple of counter points.

If Shea really wanted out, before he signed the deal he would have given Poile a heads up to either make another deal with Philly or to not match the sheet.

You don't sign a 14 year deal if you have problems playing with either team, especially if the owners had told you straight up they would match either deal, which Nashville owners did.

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04-18-2013, 11:24 AM
  #136
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not true. holmgren wouldn't give up couturier in any deal for weber. nice one holmgren.
that wasnt true

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04-18-2013, 11:37 AM
  #137
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Maybe this year is a little unrealistic for Weber to be moved, but next years draft could be another possibility. Especially if the Preds falter again next year and have another lottery team.

That draft is in Philadelphia as well. Imagine Homer acquiring him at our draft. The building would go crazy. Hopefully Coburn and Couts both have great years next year and makes them more appealing to Nashville. I know it's fantasy, but when I am there and they announce a deal for Weber, I would probably faint lol. Just thinking out loud here haha.

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04-18-2013, 11:38 AM
  #138
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Originally Posted by triggrman View Post
Couple of counter points.

If Shea really wanted out, before he signed the deal he would have given Poile a heads up to either make another deal with Philly or to not match the sheet.

You don't sign a 14 year deal if you have problems playing with either team, especially if the owners had told you straight up they would match either deal, which Nashville owners did.
Yea it seems he just wanted one of the backdiving retirement deals before they became illegal, and used Philly to get it. However, the poison pill nature of the contract (and his agent's comments) suggest that getting out of Nashville was definitely a thought. Don't see him wanting out, but it would be quite the mess if he did.

If he did.... Eberle + Klefbom + 2014 1st & 2nd matches the precedent. Young & proven forward + top pairing potential D + the picks is the kind of package that would be demanded and I'm not sure what other teams could match that quality.

Obviously Nashville fans will say no, but it's the kind of return they're looking at if he wants out. Don't see an argument to them keeping him for 14 years if he's trying to force his way out. That seems....unlikely.

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04-18-2013, 02:10 PM
  #139
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I don't think that's the case.

The issue was always Schenn AND Couturier, as I recall from the reports at the time. If Nashville would have accepted a package with one or the other (as well, of course, as additional pieces), there probably would have been a deal.
ill see if i can dig up links but schenn was available with less pieces added on... couturier was simply not in any deal from holmgren. flyers fan should be able to confirm this.

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04-18-2013, 02:12 PM
  #140
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that wasnt true
yes it was.

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04-18-2013, 02:13 PM
  #141
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Originally Posted by NoNecksCurse View Post
ill see if i can dig up links but schenn was available with less pieces added on... couturier was simply not in any deal from holmgren. flyers fan should be able to confirm this.


I am a Flyers fan.

You might be able to find a few sources that said Schenn-over-Couturier, but the vast majority made clear that the issue was the inclusion of both, in addition to other pieces.

It is one of these myths that has taken hold on HF--and that some Flyers fans perpetuate by responding "If Homer didn't trade Couturier for Weber, he certainly won't for Player X."

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04-18-2013, 02:15 PM
  #142
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Doesn't Weber have a Luongo style contract?
Yes, but a team will get 10+ good years out of him compared to 3-4 from Luongo.

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04-18-2013, 02:23 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Jack de la Hoya View Post


I am a Flyers fan.

You might be able to find a few sources that said Schenn-over-Couturier, but the vast majority made clear that the issue was the inclusion of both, in addition to other pieces.

It is one of these myths that has taken hold on HF--and that some Flyers fans perpetuate by responding "If Homer didn't trade Couturier for Weber, he certainly won't for Player X."
after the offer sheet was signed, holmgren came back with his best offer of voracek, meszaros, read, 2013 1st round pick... no couturier or schenn.. it was widely reported that schenn could be had but holmgren was too high on couturier as were flyers fans. obviously couturier could be "had" for weber.. but not in a package that could actually land weber. for example...

couturier + 2013 1st round pick for shea weber ... obviously holmgren does this.. but when more pieces were involved, holmgren wasnt having it. making any deal with couturier not gonna happen. if holmgren hadnt been so stubborn when it came to cooter, weber is a flyer right now, plain and simple.

couturier + voracek + meszaros + 2013 1st round pick gets it done i think.. but i digress.. homer didn't want to part with couturier within reason and weber is a pred for life.

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04-18-2013, 02:31 PM
  #144
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after the offer sheet was signed, holmgren came back with his best offer of voracek, meszaros, read, 2013 1st round pick... no couturier or schenn...
And Poile responded by asking the Flyers to swap the 1st for Schenn + Couturier, bringing the total package to Schenn, Couturier, Voracek, Meszaros, and Read--a hefty price. [EDIT: That was from Flyers beat-writer Sam Cardchidi, as relayed on here by OurGocIsAnAwesomeGoc]

Anyway, a quick Google search reveals this--though I can't seem to get Dreger's original podcast, so I don't know if he said it.

Quote:
...The Philadelphia Flyers worked hard to engineer a trade with the Preds for Shea Weber. Many deadlines and offers passed before the Flyers offered a contract to the restricted free agent. One such package offered by the Flyers included Matt Read, Andrej Meszaros, and the first three Flyers picks in next years draft....

Trade talks appear to have broken down when the Nashville Predators offered an outlandish counter-proposal to the Philadelphia Flyers. The Preds reportedly requested Sean Couturier, Brayden Schenn, and more for the rights to Shea Weber, perhaps empowered by the strong interest Weber was generating from multiple teams across the NHL. The Flyers balked at the offer before extending a front-loaded contract to Shea Weber....
http://www.rantsports.com/nhl/2012/0...r-trade-talks/

EDIT: here's Dreger's original tweet:

Quote:
Won't spent much time scouring for Weber trade details, but I've heard Preds wanted Couturier, Schenn and something else from Flyers. Ouch.
https://twitter.com/DarrenDreger/sta...10152325742592

I agree with your conclusion: Weber goes nowhere, and any chance the Flyers had of obtaining him passed last summer.

I'm just pointing out that the notion that the Flyers passed on a deal that included only one or the other of Schenn or Couturier is, as far as I can tell, a myth. Such an offer was never made by Nashville.


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04-18-2013, 02:51 PM
  #145
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Yes, but a team will get 10+ good years out of him compared to 3-4 from Luongo.
Weber could easily play until he's 40... unless he gets a stick in the eye like Pronger, or a puck to the eye like Marc Staal. After those terrible injuries and what happened to Luke Schenn, I would be nervous having such an important defensemen on my team who doesn't wear a visor.

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04-18-2013, 03:49 PM
  #146
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yes it was.
No it wasn't. Poile was asking for Schenn, Couturier ++.

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04-18-2013, 05:11 PM
  #147
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Thing is, if they asked for Schenn+Couturier++ for Weber's RFA rights last year from the one and only bidder (after signed OS), why would you expect them to take effectifely less (Coburn+ couple 1sts) now for Weber on a longterm contract with a huge chunk already paid out and without any kind of NTC in a 29 team market? Couturier, Schenn and Coburn all have way more circumspect seasons going than Weber.

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04-18-2013, 06:15 PM
  #148
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Thing is, if they asked for Schenn+Couturier++ for Weber's RFA rights last year from the one and only bidder (after signed OS), why would you expect them to take effectifely less (Coburn+ couple 1sts) now for Weber on a longterm contract with a huge chunk already paid out and without any kind of NTC in a 29 team market? Couturier, Schenn and Coburn all have way more circumspect seasons going than Weber.
I don't think anyone expects them to accept that return.

Most Flyers fans were fine with dealing Couturier + + last year, and would be fine with doing it now...

It won't happen, of course, but if Nashville ever decides to move Weber, and if they are still willing to deal with the Flyers, expect the Flyers to be a strong contender because they have plenty of young, cost-controlled talent and a huge need.

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04-18-2013, 08:47 PM
  #149
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so couturier + meszaros + 2013 1st round pick for weber? what are we talking here? cause sorry but that just sucks.

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04-18-2013, 08:49 PM
  #150
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so couturier + meszaros + 2013 1st round pick for weber? what are we talking here? cause sorry but that just sucks.
What are you talking about?

EDIT: Did someone make that offer recently? I thought we were talking about last year's negotiations.

I think someone on our board suggested Couturier + D. Nurse (projected 8th overall) + 2014 1st + Cousins (or something like that). A few guys didn't like the deal much; others thought it was steal--but I think most Flyers fans have gotten over the Weber-to-Philly thing.


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