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Taylor Hall to Ottawa

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Old
04-18-2013, 02:54 PM
  #201
missinthejets
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
As hard as I have tried to offer up reasonable deals, most people seem to be focusing on the stupid offers. Wierd.

that's because there is no reasonable deal for Taylor Hall. Oiler fans quite rightly love the kid and would never trade him unless it was an outrageous return and Ottawa fans quite rightly don't want to overpay for a player.

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04-18-2013, 02:56 PM
  #202
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So it's ok for the Sens to offer 3 pieces for Hall but it's not ok for the Oilers to offer 3 pieces for Karlsson. I don't trade Hall for any combination of 3 lesser pieces.

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04-18-2013, 02:57 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
lol. Yes he would... in a heartbeat. Not that Edmonton would do it, but Ottawa most certainly would.
Its easier to get 4 players like them than get a Karlsson.

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Originally Posted by WayneGretzky View Post
So it's ok for the Sens to offer 3 pieces for Hall but it's not ok for the Oilers to offer 3 pieces for Karlsson.
Yes. Karlsson >>>>∞>>>>> Hall

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04-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
Its easier to get 4 players like them than get a Karlsson.



Yes. Karlsson >>>>∞>>>>> Hall
Settle down. Hall is top 5 PPG player in the league and is only 21 years old.

So Hall >>>>>>>>>>>>> Cowen, JS, Lehner or any of the other crap offered for him

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04-18-2013, 03:01 PM
  #205
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Since Oil fans want the moon and Sens fans don't want to give that up for Hall, what would it take for Eberle or Yakupov?

Would Ceci+ 1st+Puempel do it?

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04-18-2013, 03:10 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by WayneGretzky View Post
So it's ok for the Sens to offer 3 pieces for Hall but it's not ok for the Oilers to offer 3 pieces for Karlsson. I don't trade Hall for any combination of 3 lesser pieces.
Unlike Edmonton who has no depth, Ottawa has it in spades, and as such, we are not in a position where a quality for quantity trade makes any sort of sense, and the same applies in reverse, as outside of the big 5, Edmonton has no assets approaching the value of Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad. As discussed earlier, Edmonton could make a quality for quantity trade that improves the team, especially for young impact players like Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad.

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04-18-2013, 03:14 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Egil View Post
Unlike Edmonton who has no depth, Ottawa has it in spades, and as such, we are not in a position where a quality for quantity trade makes any sort of sense, and the same applies in reverse, as outside of the big 5, Edmonton has no assets approaching the value of Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad. As discussed earlier, Edmonton could make a quality for quantity trade that improves the team, especially for young impact players like Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad.
Nah. For example Gagner > Silfverberg, Pääjärvi > Zibanejad and Klefbom > Cowan. Ottawa has no value outside of Karlsson.

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04-18-2013, 03:14 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by Egil View Post
Unlike Edmonton who has no depth, Ottawa has it in spades, and as such, we are not in a position where a quality for quantity trade makes any sort of sense, and the same applies in reverse, as outside of the big 5, Edmonton has no assets approaching the value of Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad. As discussed earlier, Edmonton could make a quality for quantity trade that improves the team, especially for young impact players like Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad.
So outside of the top half of our roster we have no dept. LOL. Three 1st overall picks + Gagner + Eberle + Hemsky + J Schultz + Petry.. yeah no dept at all.

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04-18-2013, 03:20 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
If that is how you want to continue, that is definitely a possibility. In the mean time the team will grow and develop, but at a slower pace than if you put your chips into play.

Trading of Hemsky and Gagne and the 2014 seems like a good idea, but you will not find a match in Ottawa. Which is fine. You should only make trades that make sense. I suggested Zibanejad, but upon reflection it makes Gagner redundant.

I did suggest Cowen and Silfverberg for Yakupov. That one seems fair. It does not really address the need for size up front of course, but it does give you a grade A defenseman and a responsible and skilled left winger to play on the 2nd line.
Yakupov's value to the Oilers has likely increased substantially of late. This is a team that has lacked competitive drive. Yakupov has this in spades. With the possible exception of Hall he is perhaps the most driven player on the team. Over the last 15 or so games he has also added a physical component and a feistiness to his game that we had not seen earlier. Combine this with his skills and the Oilers will not part with him easily.

Yakupov and Hall give the Oilers and interesting pair of bookends. They have a lot of very similar characteristics. I'd actually give the advantage skillwise to Yakupov. He has a better shot, is a very underrated playmaker, and like Hall will be tough to play against going forward.

The kid has a fantastic attitude despite the reputation he had coming in. He looks very coachable. He is learning to play in his own end, and of late his game has been night and day better than it had been earlier.

I just don't see a trade like the ones being suggested here as a step in the right direction. I am an old guy. I am willing to wait for the team to mature since my hope is to see another cup winner not a team that typically shoots to make the playoffs. There is no sure way to make this happen but if it takes a little more time to build around what they have so be it.


Last edited by Fourier: 04-18-2013 at 03:48 PM.
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04-18-2013, 03:26 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by Kulleroinen View Post
Nah. For example Gagner > Silfverberg, Pääjärvi > Zibanejad and Klefbom > Cowan. Ottawa has no value outside of Karlsson.
Zibanejad has more value then Silfverberg and def has more value than Gagner and Paajarvi.

If Eberle is the one more likely to be traded then:

Eberle for Cowen & Silfverberg

a 1st line winger for a #3 defensemen and a 2nd line winger

All players have potential to improve from what they are currently

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04-18-2013, 03:40 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Egil View Post
Unlike Edmonton who has no depth, Ottawa has it in spades, and as such, we are not in a position where a quality for quantity trade makes any sort of sense, and the same applies in reverse, as outside of the big 5, Edmonton has no assets approaching the value of Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad. As discussed earlier, Edmonton could make a quality for quantity trade that improves the team, especially for young impact players like Cowan, Silfverberg, Zibinejad.
If you look at the Oilers core right now and going forward the key components are

Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Schultz, Klefbom, and Smid with the possible addition of Petry, Paajarvi and Gagner, though I expect him to be traded. It also looks like they will be in a position to add another top end player this draft, possibly a guy like Sean Monahan

I would be curious to see who you would list as the Sen's core players going out 3 years. If you go 8-9 players deep do you not include players like Silverberg, Zibinejad and Cowen?

The Oilers don't have to be cup contenders next year. The additions they need to make don't reqeuire them to move top end talent. They can be addressed through trades, FA signings and from within.

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04-18-2013, 04:07 PM
  #212
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
If you look at the Oilers core right now and going forward the key components are

Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Schultz, Klefbom, and Smid with the possible addition of Petry, Paajarvi and Gagner, though I expect him to be traded. It also looks like they will be in a position to add another top end player this draft, possibly a guy like Sean Monahan

I would be curious to see who you would list as the Sen's core players going out 3 years. If you go 8-9 players deep do you not include players like Silverberg, Zibinejad and Cowen?

The Oilers don't have to be cup contenders next year. The additions they need to make don't reqeuire them to move top end talent. They can be addressed through trades, FA signings and from within.
SImilar 8-9 deep players(excluing Alfredsson):

Spezza, Zibby, Michalek, Silfverberg, Turris
Karlsson, Cowen, Methot
Anderson, Lehner

We also have:
Ceci who is comparable to Klefbom
Weircoich who is comparable to Schultz, maybe slightly worse(but not much)

And neither of them are top 10 players for the future

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04-18-2013, 04:14 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by MoreGore View Post
That is not the point of making a trade between Ottawa and Edmonton.

What does Edmonton need that Ottawa can offer. That is how a trade works. It does not work if one team losses pieces it can't replace.

There are two teams here. One is looking really good now and has a lot of quality assets. The other is struggling and while it has a lot of high end talent the team lacks balance.

What pieces can Edmonton lose without a negative impact and then use to fill out your roster.

You can afford to lose a young top winger. Hall, Eberle or Yakupov. Ottawa can't replace Karlsson, Lehner or Spezza. They can afford a lot of other quality pieces.
Funny how that works...

During our 5 game winning streak, Hall had 14 points in 5 games. We have now dropped 6 in a row, and Hall has had 2 points in that span. Hall is literally the straw that stirs the drink or whatever that expression is, he is not comparable to Yak or Eberle. When he's not producing, we do not win, it's as simple as that.

On the other hand, the Senators got full years out of both Spezza and Karlsson last year and they finished 8th in the east. They have both missed most of this season and the Sens are... 6th.

A package like Cowen, Silferberg and Gryba (whatever you offered) will not get you Hall. Eberle? Maybe. Certainly not Hall though.

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04-18-2013, 04:20 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by dss97 View Post
Funny how that works...

During our 5 game winning streak, Hall had 14 points in 5 games. We have now dropped 6 in a row, and Hall has had 2 points in that span. Hall is literally the straw that stirs the drink or whatever that expression is, he is not comparable to Yak or Eberle. When he's not producing, we do not win, it's as simple as that.

On the other hand, the Senators got full years out of both Spezza and Karlsson last year and they finished 8th in the east. They have both missed most of this season and the Sens are... 6th.

A package like Cowen, Silferberg and Gryba (whatever you offered) will not get you Hall. Eberle? Maybe. Certainly not Hall though.
I guess thats because Ottawa has more depth than edmonton.

Add a healthy spezza and karlsson to the sens team and they are instantly a stanley cup contender

You cannot compare the result this year too last years as we have a young team that has a year extra of experience.

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04-18-2013, 04:24 PM
  #215
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Wow, this thread is a disaster...

Hall is obviously not worth 2011-12 Karlsson. Unfortunately, that player may never return due to the severity of his injury this year. Sucks for sens fans, hopefully he does.

There isnt a single other player on the Sens that is worth Hall (especially not to the Oilers). No combination of lesser pieces is going to pry him loose either.

That's about all that needs to be said here.

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04-18-2013, 04:26 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by slapshot12phil View Post
I guess thats because Ottawa has more depth than edmonton.

Add a healthy spezza and karlsson to the sens team and they are instantly a stanley cup contender

You cannot compare the result this year too last years as we have a young team that has a year extra of experience.
My point is that it is wrong of him to assume it is okay to move Hall just because we have Yak and Eberle.

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04-18-2013, 04:26 PM
  #217
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I think Hall and RNH are very unlikely to be moved. Eberle and Yakupov are probably the two that Oilers might trade if the price is righticulous.
right there. mact said our big 5 wont be going anywhere unless our socks are knocked off our feet and it is a no-brainer.

Massive overpayment needed, considering the pain everyone has gone through to get those 5 guys on this team. Which doesnt mean acquisition of guesses and prospects.

MacT would close this thread.

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04-18-2013, 04:32 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by slapshot12phil View Post
I guess thats because Ottawa has more depth than edmonton.

Add a healthy spezza and karlsson to the sens team and they are instantly a stanley cup contender

You cannot compare the result this year too last years as we have a young team that has a year extra of experience.
I dont know about that, sens need a first line winger and eberle would be a better fit imo, not willing to part with zibanejad and cowen though so I dont know if a trade would be possible. I know eberle is worth more than cowen or zibanejad but getting a first line winger and losing a young top 4 dman and second line center does more harm than good for the sens. Would be willing to trade silfverberg + 1st++ though, but like I said oilers wouldnt do that trade

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04-18-2013, 04:33 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by WayneGretzky View Post
So outside of the top half of our roster we have no dept. LOL. Three 1st overall picks + Gagner + Eberle + Hemsky + J Schultz + Petry.. yeah no dept at all.
Ottawa's franchise is top 4 in the league in depth IMO. Edmonton's is bottom 10. It's really not close. Coming from an Oilers/Sens fan.

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04-18-2013, 04:46 PM
  #220
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Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
If you look at the Oilers core right now and going forward the key components are

Hall, RNH, Yakupov, Eberle, Schultz, Klefbom, and Smid with the possible addition of Petry, Paajarvi and Gagner, though I expect him to be traded. It also looks like they will be in a position to add another top end player this draft, possibly a guy like Sean Monahan

I would be curious to see who you would list as the Sen's core players going out 3 years. If you go 8-9 players deep do you not include players like Silverberg, Zibinejad and Cowen?

The Oilers don't have to be cup contenders next year. The additions they need to make don't reqeuire them to move top end talent. They can be addressed through trades, FA signings and from within.
First of all, this all goes back to the question of "Why does Edmonton still suck?" The answer to that question, and I do not feel qualified to answer it, is critical to what decisions Edmonton needs to make going forward. The Edmonton posters seem to imply that the rest of the team is the problem, which strongly suggests a lack of depth and the possibility of wanting to make a quality for quantity trade. If your evaluation is different, then you may want to take a different course of action.

Now, as to the Sens players, Cowen appears on track to be our #2 defenseman after King Karl, and Silfverberg and Zibinejad seem set to become staples in our top 2 lines, so I would include them in our top 9 going out 3 years. Furthermore, Ottawa has demonstrated a very deep roster, and when players are healthy next year, we are going to have problems finding spots for everybody. So from an Ottawa POV, the idea of a quantity for quality trade is very appealing, and we have young players with some proven NHL results to work with. Having said that, I would not include Cowen, Zibinejad or Silfverberg in the group of players that we would want to use for this sort of move, and of course, this means a lowering in the quality we get back (Hall is more than we can get with our other players).

Returning to Edmonton, you suggest that they can acquire the rest of their roster via trade (but you have limited items to trade outside of Hall, Gagner, Yak, RNH, Eberle), via UFA, but that is very expensive, which while not a problem at the moment, will be in a couple of years, or through the organization, which has been a failure at developing non top end talent, and which takes time to get started. So while those are the three ways to fix this depth problem, they are not fast nor easy solutions. Creating a true player development pipeline takes a minimum of 3 good years (Ottawa is a great place to look at creating said pipeline).

Finally, having said all that, I do not believe that you need to trade Hall (or even necessarily any of your high end assets), but I think you should be considering it.

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04-18-2013, 04:46 PM
  #221
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I dont know about that, sens need a first line winger and eberle would be a better fit imo, not willing to part with zibanejad and cowen though so I dont know if a trade would be possible. I know eberle is worth more than cowen or zibanejad but getting a first line winger and losing a young top 4 dman and second line center does more harm than good for the sens. Would be willing to trade silfverberg + 1st++ though, but like I said oilers wouldnt do that trade
As an Oilers fan, Eberle would be the only one that could be traded. The asking price would be Zibanejad and Cowen. That is a very similar return to what Carter and Richards brought in for Philly. The difference is Eberle would be younger at the time of trade and at 22 has a 76 point, 30+ goal season. He also has historicaly scored very clutch goals. The asking price is high, but well justified.

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04-18-2013, 04:49 PM
  #222
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Originally Posted by WayneGretzky View Post
So outside of the top half of our roster we have no dept. LOL. Three 1st overall picks + Gagner + Eberle + Hemsky + J Schultz + Petry.. yeah no dept at all.
So then your elite players suck? If you have really good depth, and really good top end players, why do continue to lose? Cause if you have both of those things, you should be an elite team....

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04-18-2013, 04:50 PM
  #223
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As an Oilers fan, Eberle would be the only one that could be traded. The asking price would be Zibanejad and Cowen.
Not interest in trading away Cowen if Eberle comes back. Hall is like Alfie, he's part of their solution and their best player for the next 2 decades.

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04-18-2013, 04:55 PM
  #224
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Oilers are not trading Hall, RNH, Yakupov, or Eberle for spare parts. For Hall/RNH, it's Karlsson or bust. For Yakupov or Eberle, it's something like 2 of Zibanejad/Silferberg/Cowen/Lehner+1st. We're not trading any recent 1st overall picks or a guy who just last season finished top 10 in the NHL in PPG for spare parts like Gryba, Smith, and Greening.

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04-18-2013, 04:57 PM
  #225
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Not interest in trading away Cowen if Eberle comes back. Hall is like Alfie, he's part of their solution and their best player for the next 2 decades.
Then Zibanejad, Silverberg, and a 2nd/Stone. I would be very surprised if Cowen isn't available for what would be your best forward.

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