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The Buff Redemption, Jets win 4-3

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Old
04-19-2013, 10:23 AM
  #176
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I tried to listen to the NHL power hour or whatever on 1290 this morning. Good lord, they're overwhelmingly negative. We've won 5 straight and we're very close to 8th and still in the running for the SE title, cheer up a bit?

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04-19-2013, 10:41 AM
  #177
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I like Buff when he is physical.

And that Pavelec save happened right in front of me. The crowd erupted. It was a great moment.

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04-19-2013, 10:43 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Hammer Slammer View Post
I tried to listen to the NHL power hour or whatever on 1290 this morning. Good lord, they're overwhelmingly negative. We've won 5 straight and we're very close to 8th and still in the running for the SE title, cheer up a bit?
Troy really does not like Byfuglien. Thinks he should play 20 minutes a night and be a big physical bruiser, and forget about offence. They talked about Enstrom going down to the Ott hit and that Buff "didn't do anything about it". Jay said he's glad he didn't because he hates that fighting after a clean hit stuff, Troy said Buff should've fought.

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04-19-2013, 10:56 AM
  #179
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Troy really does not like Byfuglien. Thinks he should play 20 minutes a night and be a big physical bruiser, and forget about offence. They talked about Enstrom going down to the Ott hit and that Buff "didn't do anything about it". Jay said he's glad he didn't because he hates that fighting after a clean hit stuff, Troy said Buff should've fought.
I think he should play 20 a night, but that's where my opinion goes completely in the opposite direction.

I like when he's aggressive, physical, and works hard, and at 20 minutes that's a lot more reasonable to expect from him game in game out.

I also agree that fights after clean hits are dumb.

Buff forgetting about offense is a terrible idea. If he was meant to be a bruiser he'd be a bottom six RW.

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04-19-2013, 11:06 AM
  #180
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Clean hit is such an oxymoron.

Sorry but you don't let a team run you over. All that clean hit no fight nonsense is just that.

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04-19-2013, 11:07 AM
  #181
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Originally Posted by tbcwpg View Post
Troy really does not like Byfuglien. Thinks he should play 20 minutes a night and be a big physical bruiser, and forget about offence. They talked about Enstrom going down to the Ott hit and that Buff "didn't do anything about it". Jay said he's glad he didn't because he hates that fighting after a clean hit stuff, Troy said Buff should've fought.
Troy Westwood is probably a great guy and he likely has a lot to offer in regards to CFL football coverage... but hearing him talk about hockey is a deal breaker for me - I immediately tune out. Surely 1290 can do better than having this guy cover hockey on air all winter.

1290 might as well just hire some random guy they see yelling "shoot" at the next Jets game because that guy probably has more hockey knowledge to share than does Westwood.

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04-19-2013, 11:11 AM
  #182
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Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
These were the numbers of a goalie last night

21 - 24 3 - 3 0 - 0 24 - 27 .889 0 61:16

What these facts tell me is he didnt have a good game at all and he almost cost his team the game.

Facts don't lie
Pavelec was bad last night
Try watching the game instead of staring at stat sheets. Pavelec made a number of out-of-this-world saves that kept the Jets in the game.

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04-19-2013, 11:14 AM
  #183
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I'm not saying he's a scrub. It just doesn't make sense to keep a player we don't need to win games when trading him would likely fill a glaring hole among our top 6 forwards.

Enstrom should net a top line C/RW, plus some prospects or a 1st round pick. Sometimes talented players get traded when things don't fit.
...Except by your same logic we're winning games without that top 6 forward which you want.

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04-19-2013, 11:24 AM
  #184
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Pavelec made a number of out-of-this-world saves that kept the Jets in the game.
I'm getting really irritated with this logic. Those two saves before the standing ovations and pavy chants looked good but were fundamentally flawed. Other goalies would've made those saves look routine, but Pavs makes them look worldly because he is a technically flawed goalie.

First save hes against the post, but turned a little too much, making side to side movement very hard. Puck comes cross crease, he's out of position so he has to dive instead of sliding side-to-side. It wasn't skill that made the save, it was luck. Our d-man was also out of position.

Second save he does his usual flopping like a fish on his stomach. How many other goalies do this in the NHL? Anyone even mildly educated about goalies would tell you goalies should never ever be on their backs or their stomachs, yet Pavs does this routinely.

That being said sometimes these saves do fire up the team and the crowd, there's value in that. But his numbers would improve if he worked on his technique. He's probably the most technically flawed starter in the NHL.

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04-19-2013, 11:30 AM
  #185
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I'm getting really irritated with this logic. Those two saves before the standing ovations and pavy chants looked good but were fundamentally flawed. Other goalies would've made those saves look routine, but Pavs makes them look worldly because he is a technically flawed goalie.

First save hes against the post, but turned a little too much, making side to side movement very hard. Puck comes cross crease, he's out of position so he has to dive instead of sliding side-to-side. It wasn't skill that made the save, it was luck. Our d-man was also out of position.

Second save he does his usual flopping like a fish on his stomach. How many other goalies do this in the NHL? Anyone even mildly educated about goalies would tell you goalies should never ever be on their backs or their stomachs, yet Pavs does this routinely.

That being said sometimes these saves do fire up the team and the crowd, there's value in that. But his numbers would improve if he worked on his technique. He's probably the most technically flawed starter in the NHL.
I was a goalie, all my life, played the position, and played it well. And i still keep a keen eye out on who is where in the league, and in the systems. There are so many things wrong with what youve said here, im not even going to try and argue them.

Yes, he lets in the odd soft goal, just like most goalies. But he has made some outstanding reactionary saves, some great athletic saves, and most of all, he has made some saves that have been in the most important parts of the game.

EDIT what happened to heights?

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04-19-2013, 11:47 AM
  #186
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No idea what happened to heights, I guess they got jacked?

I don't know, I'm not a goalie myself. But you watch the elite tenders of the NHL, and they all work on the fundamentals so they don't have to constantly make athletic saves. With an athletic save you're guessing where the guy is going to shoot, instead of sliding side to side blocking as much of the net as possible. You only have time to get one pad, or your catcher into the path of the shot. Look at the "save of the year" last year, it was pure luck.

He would put up better numbers if he stopped relying on athleticism and luck to make saves. I can't really blame him though, apparently he had his first goalie coach at 17. To be drafted in the 2nd round with that fact is pretty amazing.

My point is, Pavelec has a lot of room to improve fundamentally. I do see improvements, especially this year. I think next season it will "click" and he will have a year in the .920 sv% range.

I would rather have a goalie that is very good athletically but needs work fundamentally than the other way around. Have you watched Montoya play? He is actually the same height as Pavy just a little lighter, but his equipment is way smaller. He is technically a better goalie than Pavs (and he can move the puck), but Pavs is way better athletically.

But that being said, I'd rather have an elite boring goaltender that stays upright. I'm not interested in highlight reel saves.

ps, if you have the time to completely blow my argument out of the water, go right ahead.


Last edited by allan5oh: 04-19-2013 at 12:05 PM.
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Old
04-19-2013, 11:52 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Bartho View Post
Try watching the game instead of staring at stat sheets. Pavelec made a number of out-of-this-world saves that kept the Jets in the game.
I was being Facetious because some where on these boards are people who will die defending that logic without ever watching a game or player

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04-19-2013, 11:56 AM
  #188
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Clean hit is such an oxymoron.

Sorry but you don't let a team run you over. All that clean hit no fight nonsense is just that.
Oh give me a break. If you get dumped because you got caught off balance, get up, and for god sakes don't send some good with clubs for hands to defend your honour because you weren't ready for the hit and got tossed. Last time I checked, this is a full contact sport.

An open ice hit that's within the rules but is devastating, is kind of dirty, but legal. And I'll concede that maybe then do you have a right to get mad, but if you get hit hard? Hit back.

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04-19-2013, 12:05 PM
  #189
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It is a fact that our winning percentage is higher without Enstrom than with him.

It is also a fact that causation does not equal correlation.

For instance, 100% of all serial killers have a debilitating chemical addiction to oxygen, yet it does not mean that the oxygen drives people to kill.
actually causation does equal correlation. impossible for it not to. on the other hand... correlation does not equal causation. tricky that. you have to get the order right... or you're wrong.

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04-19-2013, 12:08 PM
  #190
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Awesome, thanks!

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04-19-2013, 12:14 PM
  #191
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That video proves my point. Instead of pushing off and sliding over, he actually moves forward out of the net. He had maybe 5-10% of the net covered on the weak side. It was pure luck.

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04-19-2013, 12:17 PM
  #192
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Oh give me a break. If you get dumped because you got caught off balance, get up, and for god sakes don't send some good with clubs for hands to defend your honour because you weren't ready for the hit and got tossed. Last time I checked, this is a full contact sport.

An open ice hit that's within the rules but is devastating, is kind of dirty, but legal. And I'll concede that maybe then do you have a right to get mad, but if you get hit hard? Hit back.
Or I could grab you and punch you out and take 5 minutes in the box for it. Maybe you think twice about hitting me again

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04-19-2013, 12:17 PM
  #193
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Man, Pavelec sucks. How was he not in position to make an easier save on that perfect cross ice pass to the guy all alone in front of the far side of the net?

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04-19-2013, 12:19 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by allan5oh View Post
That video proves my point. Instead of pushing off and sliding over, he actually moves forward out of the net. He had maybe 5-10% of the net covered on the weak side. It was pure luck.
Wow. In your world every NHL game would end 0-0 with a neverending shootout.

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04-19-2013, 12:43 PM
  #195
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No idea what happened to heights, I guess they got jacked?

I don't know, I'm not a goalie myself. But you watch the elite tenders of the NHL, and they all work on the fundamentals so they don't have to constantly make athletic saves. With an athletic save you're guessing where the guy is going to shoot, instead of sliding side to side blocking as much of the net as possible. You only have time to get one pad, or your catcher into the path of the shot. Look at the "save of the year" last year, it was pure luck.

He would put up better numbers if he stopped relying on athleticism and luck to make saves. I can't really blame him though, apparently he had his first goalie coach at 17. To be drafted in the 2nd round with that fact is pretty amazing.

My point is, Pavelec has a lot of room to improve fundamentally. I do see improvements, especially this year. I think next season it will "click" and he will have a year in the .920 sv% range.

I would rather have a goalie that is very good athletically but needs work fundamentally than the other way around. Have you watched Montoya play? He is actually the same height as Pavy just a little lighter, but his equipment is way smaller. He is technically a better goalie than Pavs (and he can move the puck), but Pavs is way better athletically.

But that being said, I'd rather have an elite boring goaltender that stays upright. I'm not interested in highlight reel saves.

ps, if you have the time to completely blow my argument out of the water, go right ahead.
You pretty much nailed it right on the head, he didnt have a coach until he was already strong with a particular skillset, however his time working with Flats here in Winnipeg has had him working a bit more with his lateral movement, as well as working on his weak glove side. You might see him cheat a bit more than before with his glove, he starts to lift his left leg a bit early, but it is showing hes learning, and making changes to his game regularly.

He has gotten better with breakaways/shootouts this year as well, hes starting to be more aggressive coming out of his crease, forcing shooters to make a move, as opposed to letting them make a move, and the reacting to it. It was something that Flaherty way back was strong with, and i think Pavs and Flats have some great similarities.

While Pavs can often be seen as out of position, its a result of his coming out of the crease, and cutting down angles. you see alot of shots taken miss him low blocker, which is largely due in part to his playing at the top of his crease. It also falls on his defense to know his playing style, and to assist in either blocking the shot when hes back in his crease, or if hes established in the net, clearing the lane or getting the hell out of the way. if hes moved forward and set up, his defense should be aware, and be ready to take away the pass, and let him deal with the shot.

its an issue that many aggressive hybrid goalies have, but as you said, its better to have the athletic goalie who can be taught better positioning.

Some of the best goalies of all time have been the unorthodox, athletic, "slightly uncontrolled" style, like Fuhr, Belfour, Hasek, Thomas, etc etc etc.

I actually really like the addition of Montoya to the roster, and i think he compliments Pavs very well. they both share the same easy going personality, and want to play as much as they can. Montoya had good numbers coming up, saw alot of rubber everywhere he has played, and has great fundamentals. Hes slightly slower, but i really like what we have in our system. Pasquale is another athletic, laid back guy, and Dekanich is actually a great guy to watch, who has had some bad bad luck with injuries, but could be a great 3rd stringer or backup if we ever needed him.

The thing with pavelec is that hes young, he loves the game, and he doesnt take anything too seriously. Its a good thing because he can bounce back easily, hes not easily rattled, and he enjoys playing as much as he possibly can, but it can also be tough when the team, or defense in front of him is having an off night. He has the abilities and the athleticism to be a VERY good goalie, and i think we will continue to see his numbers improve as the team gets better, and as he matures.

Its tough to see all the armchair gms and coaches calling for his head after a bad loss, or saying hes not an nhl caliber starting goalie, but i guess thats the typical arm chair fan who has played next to no competitive hockey in their life. the truth is, he is a starting goalie, hes made play of the year saves, he makes clutch stops, and the team loves him. i couldnt ask for much more in net for the jets.


EDIT: the video posted above of him stopping Faulk, if you notice from the entire replay, the issue wasnt his positioning, he was firmly against his short side post, with the option to push off and come across to his far side to block Faulk, but he didnt once look to see who was beside him. Hainsey and Stuart were both strong side down low, with Ladd pinching down to cover Hainsey being out of position. in normal play, hainsey should have been top side of the crease, and communicating to Pavs where the winger was, while Pavs kept square to the puck on the other side.

Could he have come over to face Faulk faster? most definitely. but the issue in that play was that he didnt even know how close Faulk was, and once the puck made it through the seam, he reached back to cover the net up. very unorthodox, and lucky, but he got there.


Last edited by spicy: 04-19-2013 at 12:52 PM.
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04-19-2013, 12:54 PM
  #196
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Or I could grab you and punch you out and take 5 minutes in the box for it. Maybe you think twice about hitting me again
Like hell I would. Have you ever played hockey? I did for maybe 8 years ish? Never did I ONCE think about who was on the other team's bench, or even who it was I was hitting before I made a hit, unless I was waiting for a chance to hit a guy exceptionally, and unreasonably hard. If a guy wants to swing at me, let him swing. He can take the minutes in the box. If I ever got gauded into a fight by a guy I ran over, and got beaten up? I'd probably be more likely to line him up even harder next time, rather than pass on the hit.

In a game, you react to the situation. If the hit should be made, you have to make it. End of story.

If you don't hit someone 'cause you don't wanna be punched in the face, you should find a new career, and if you're response to getting hit is to throw punches instead of take a hit like a man in a body contact game, you're wasting your time.

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04-19-2013, 01:23 PM
  #197
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Like hell I would. Have you ever played hockey? I did for maybe 8 years ish? Never did I ONCE think about who was on the other team's bench, or even who it was I was hitting before I made a hit, unless I was waiting for a chance to hit a guy exceptionally, and unreasonably hard. If a guy wants to swing at me, let him swing. He can take the minutes in the box. If I ever got gauded into a fight by a guy I ran over, and got beaten up? I'd probably be more likely to line him up even harder next time, rather than pass on the hit.

In a game, you react to the situation. If the hit should be made, you have to make it. End of story.

If you don't hit someone 'cause you don't wanna be punched in the face, you should find a new career, and if you're response to getting hit is to throw punches instead of take a hit like a man in a body contact game, you're wasting your time.
Exactly right. In fact, if you can hit a guy clean and hard AND get someone on the other team an instigator or roughing penalty, job well done.

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04-19-2013, 01:59 PM
  #198
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Like hell I would. Have you ever played hockey? I did for maybe 8 years ish? Never did I ONCE think about who was on the other team's bench, or even who it was I was hitting before I made a hit, unless I was waiting for a chance to hit a guy exceptionally, and unreasonably hard. If a guy wants to swing at me, let him swing. He can take the minutes in the box. If I ever got gauded into a fight by a guy I ran over, and got beaten up? I'd probably be more likely to line him up even harder next time, rather than pass on the hit.

In a game, you react to the situation. If the hit should be made, you have to make it. End of story.

If you don't hit someone 'cause you don't wanna be punched in the face, you should find a new career, and if you're response to getting hit is to throw punches instead of take a hit like a man in a body contact game, you're wasting your time.
Everyone says that and yes I played hockey for a long time and yes I punched out quite a few guys who thought they could hit anyone on my team with impunity.

I often wonder where all you guys played that was so wonderful that you were never afraid of anyone coming after you. Angels on your wings I guess

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04-19-2013, 02:11 PM
  #199
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Like hell I would. Have you ever played hockey? I did for maybe 8 years ish? Never did I ONCE think about who was on the other team's bench, or even who it was I was hitting before I made a hit, unless I was waiting for a chance to hit a guy exceptionally, and unreasonably hard. If a guy wants to swing at me, let him swing. He can take the minutes in the box. If I ever got gauded into a fight by a guy I ran over, and got beaten up? I'd probably be more likely to line him up even harder next time, rather than pass on the hit.

In a game, you react to the situation. If the hit should be made, you have to make it. End of story.

If you don't hit someone 'cause you don't wanna be punched in the face, you should find a new career, and if you're response to getting hit is to throw punches instead of take a hit like a man in a body contact game, you're wasting your time.
totally agree. the "intimdation" factor might have played into it in 30 years ago, but that's not the way the game is played now. Anyone who gets "intimidated" is weeded out of this game by the end of junior.

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04-19-2013, 02:15 PM
  #200
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Everyone says that and yes I played hockey for a long time and yes I punched out quite a few guys who thought they could hit anyone on my team with impunity.

I often wonder where all you guys played that was so wonderful that you were never afraid of anyone coming after you. Angels on your wings I guess
I was more afraid of the fans throwing beer bottles - stubbies, of course.

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