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05-08-2013, 11:55 AM
  #601
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Quite honestly it isn't the Sedins that are the problem in my view. To be successful in the playoffs you need other people to step up. The canucks have never really gotten that except for Kesler in the Nashville series. And yes the Sedins have stepped up at times. Henrik dominated the Sharks series that playoff year. Over the last 5 playoff years Henrik is a PPG player. You honestly can not ask for much more (and if he wasn't so obviously hurt during the latter portions of the cup run would likely be much higher than PPG). I would say that yes they likely need to be better but quite simply that is difficult to do if no one is stepping up. it allows the opposition to simply key in on them.

The Hawks lead their series 3-1....with ZERO points from Toews. Sharp and Kane have stepped up in his offensive absence.

no to me the problem is that Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond, Roy, Bieksa quite simply didn't step up the last two years. The key to winning in the playoffs isn't the top line but rather the 3 lines that follow it. Kesler, Roy and the wingers were simply invisible for the bulk of this series (Yes I realize Kesler was sick which of course gives him a bit of an out).

The SJ PP hit at nearly 30%....the Sedins have no responsibility for that. The canucks PP hit at 20% which is about right. 5-on-5 play is going to be heavily dictated by the success of all lines of which the Sedins are a part of.

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05-08-2013, 11:57 AM
  #602
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Originally Posted by MajorCanuck View Post
Do you legitimately think the sedins will ever reach the 100 Pt plateau again? Because the way our current offense is built, AV and gillis certainly think so but I'm a lot more skeptical.
Possible but unlikely. I don't look at it as a rebuild but rather a transition unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's anyone to pass the baton to...

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05-08-2013, 12:01 PM
  #603
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Possible but unlikely. I don't look at it as a rebuild but rather a transition unfortunately, it doesn't look like there's anyone to pass the baton to...
Thats why rebuild is likely the only way for this team to get competitive again. teams dont trade players like the sedins, so the other option is the draft.

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05-08-2013, 12:17 PM
  #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Quite honestly it isn't the Sedins that are the problem in my view. To be successful in the playoffs you need other people to step up. The canucks have never really gotten that except for Kesler in the Nashville series. And yes the Sedins have stepped up at times. Henrik dominated the Sharks series that playoff year. Over the last 5 playoff years Henrik is a PPG player. You honestly can not ask for much more (and if he wasn't so obviously hurt during the latter portions of the cup run would likely be much higher than PPG). I would say that yes they likely need to be better but quite simply that is difficult to do if no one is stepping up. it allows the opposition to simply key in on them.

The Hawks lead their series 3-1....with ZERO points from Toews. Sharp and Kane have stepped up in his offensive absence.

no to me the problem is that Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond, Roy, Bieksa quite simply didn't step up the last two years. The key to winning in the playoffs isn't the top line but rather the 3 lines that follow it. Kesler, Roy and the wingers were simply invisible for the bulk of this series (Yes I realize Kesler was sick which of course gives him a bit of an out).

The SJ PP hit at nearly 30%....the Sedins have no responsibility for that. The canucks PP hit at 20% which is about right. 5-on-5 play is going to be heavily dictated by the success of all lines of which the Sedins are a part of.
So we need other people to step up so the Sedins don't have to? I don't agree with that at all.

Take out Henrik's outlier of a series against he Sharks a couple years ago and he is not a PPG player in the playoffs. In fact, even with that there he's still below a PPG, but it just doesn't look as bad.

When you go into any playoff series and your best players aren't your best players, you're in for a very difficult series no matter who you play against. Far too often the Sedins haven't been our best players. Time to move on.

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05-08-2013, 12:30 PM
  #605
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Quite honestly it isn't the Sedins that are the problem in my view. To be successful in the playoffs you need other people to step up. The canucks have never really gotten that except for Kesler in the Nashville series. And yes the Sedins have stepped up at times. Henrik dominated the Sharks series that playoff year. Over the last 5 playoff years Henrik is a PPG player. You honestly can not ask for much more (and if he wasn't so obviously hurt during the latter portions of the cup run would likely be much higher than PPG). I would say that yes they likely need to be better but quite simply that is difficult to do if no one is stepping up. it allows the opposition to simply key in on them.

The Hawks lead their series 3-1....with ZERO points from Toews. Sharp and Kane have stepped up in his offensive absence.

no to me the problem is that Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond, Roy, Bieksa quite simply didn't step up the last two years. The key to winning in the playoffs isn't the top line but rather the 3 lines that follow it. Kesler, Roy and the wingers were simply invisible for the bulk of this series (Yes I realize Kesler was sick which of course gives him a bit of an out).

The SJ PP hit at nearly 30%....the Sedins have no responsibility for that. The canucks PP hit at 20% which is about right. 5-on-5 play is going to be heavily dictated by the success of all lines of which the Sedins are a part of.
Really? Trying to use "Captain Intangibles" as a comparable to the Sedins' lack of playoff success, is just doing the opposite. It points out they're glaring lack of any sort of intangibles.

If the Sedins are shut down, as they regularly are in the playoffs, what else are they bringing to the table?

Toews shows up night in and night out even if he's not putting up points. And at this point I'd trade both Sedins for him.

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05-08-2013, 12:31 PM
  #606
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
Quite honestly it isn't the Sedins that are the problem in my view. To be successful in the playoffs you need other people to step up. The canucks have never really gotten that except for Kesler in the Nashville series. And yes the Sedins have stepped up at times. Henrik dominated the Sharks series that playoff year. Over the last 5 playoff years Henrik is a PPG player. You honestly can not ask for much more (and if he wasn't so obviously hurt during the latter portions of the cup run would likely be much higher than PPG). I would say that yes they likely need to be better but quite simply that is difficult to do if no one is stepping up. it allows the opposition to simply key in on them.

The Hawks lead their series 3-1....with ZERO points from Toews. Sharp and Kane have stepped up in his offensive absence.

no to me the problem is that Burrows, Hansen, Higgins, Raymond, Roy, Bieksa quite simply didn't step up the last two years. The key to winning in the playoffs isn't the top line but rather the 3 lines that follow it. Kesler, Roy and the wingers were simply invisible for the bulk of this series (Yes I realize Kesler was sick which of course gives him a bit of an out).

The SJ PP hit at nearly 30%....the Sedins have no responsibility for that. The canucks PP hit at 20% which is about right. 5-on-5 play is going to be heavily dictated by the success of all lines of which the Sedins are a part of.
Really? Trying to use "Captain Intangibles" as a comparable to the Sedins' lack of playoff success, is just doing the opposite. It points out their glaring lack of any sort of intangibles.

If the Sedins are shut down, as they regularly are in the playoffs, what else are they bringing to the table?

Toews shows up night in and night out even if he's not putting up points. And at this point I'd trade both Sedins for him.

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05-08-2013, 12:33 PM
  #607
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Originally Posted by MajorCanuck View Post
Thats why rebuild is likely the only way for this team to get competitive again. teams dont trade players like the sedins, so the other option is the draft.
You may be right, either I'm right or what I'm suggesting is death by a thousand cuts.

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05-08-2013, 01:28 PM
  #608
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So we need other people to step up so the Sedins don't have to? I don't agree with that at all.
I never said that. I said they also need to be better but they were and have never been even close to the biggest issue.

Quote:
Take out Henrik's outlier of a series against he Sharks a couple years ago and he is not a PPG player in the playoffs. In fact, even with that there he's still below a PPG, but it just doesn't look as bad.
Guess what PPG players don't get a point each and every game. Take away any players best series is simply cherry picking data. Players hit peaks and valleys.

Quote:
When you go into any playoff series and your best players aren't your best players, you're in for a very difficult series no matter who you play against. Far too often the Sedins haven't been our best players. Time to move on.
They weren't even close to be the worst players though. Garrison was likely the best player in the series for the cauncks. Up front i find it difficult to find a forward that was better than the Sedins. I really do. Not so coincidentally the Burrows-Sedin-Sedin line contributed to most of the goals scored by the team and were the top scorers for the team.

Derek Roy 1 point
Hansen 0 points
Higgins 0 points
Kesler 2 points (both in the same period)
Raymond 2 points

That's the primary issue. Not the 9 points the players on the first line put up.

Well that and Bieksa's inability to play position.


Getting rid of the Sedins would accomplish two things:

1) you would no longer get to say they weren't the best players (whether that was true or not)

2) the canucks wouldn't make the playoffs making who shows up not an issue

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05-08-2013, 01:42 PM
  #609
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Originally Posted by canuklehead View Post
Really? Trying to use "Captain Intangibles" as a comparable to the Sedins' lack of playoff success, is just doing the opposite. It points out their glaring lack of any sort of intangibles.

If the Sedins are shut down, as they regularly are in the playoffs, what else are they bringing to the table?

Toews shows up night in and night out even if he's not putting up points. And at this point I'd trade both Sedins for him.
Toews has done very little in the series. As with Kesler, he isn't paid to simply check. He's paid and expected to put up points. If he doesn't they will be bounced in the 2nd or 3rd round, because in most cases having one line score will not result in success. But of course they don't just have one line scoring...they have 4th line players with 2 and 3 points in 4 games. Hmmm that depth scoring....something the canucks lack.

To say they are regularly shut down in the playoffs is a complete misrepresentation. that line isn't going to contribute much more than a goal a game over the course of the playoffs and that is exactly what they've done. Including this series. They aren't Crosby (who btw has had some stinker series as well).

So to sum up...to me the question isn't so much "why can't the Sedins score at a 100 point pace in the playoffs (which is what most are suggesting should be)" or "why do they get shut down by top defenders more in the playoffs than the regular season"

but

"why is it that unless the Sedins or Kesler score at a 100+ point pace in a series does the team stand no chance?"

When a team makes the final they have those depth guys step up and have a phenomenal series or two. In the final appearance the team was on the back of an obviously hobbled Henrik, who hurt his back/leg significantly in the Nashville series, against the Sharks. Kesler put the team on his back against the Preds the series before. The first round was pretty even play and no one really stepped up. The final no one stepped up (maybe no one was capable given the injury situation). Last year Henrik was the only forward that did show up against the Kings. He certainly did what he could with 2 G and 3A in 5 games.

no you can say what you like but the Sedins and, in particular Henrik, have put this team on their back more often than not. Kesler to a certain extent has as well. But you need other guys to do that and it simply doesn't happen for this club. They need to sstop waiting for those three and the goaltender to steal a series and steal one for themselves.

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05-08-2013, 01:51 PM
  #610
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Can the Sedins ever win? I really don't envy those guys sometimes.

If they focus on just playing the game they get called out for not fighting back against chumps like Marchand and not having any toughness/heart/intangibles/etc.

If they do fight back, they get called undisciplined.

If they throw a playoff style bodycheck in a playoff game OT, they go straight to the box.

I'm not even really sure what to suggest that they do anymore.

And I think its worth pointing out that other stars get shut down all the time too. Toews didn't score a single goal against Philly when the Hawks won the cup (and yet he still got the Conn Smythe, interestingly enough). Crosby didn't score either against the Wings when the Pens won. Who clinched the cup for them? Max f***ing Talbot. Sometimes the rest of the team needs to score once in a while. That's why we lost this year as opposed to 2011 where we had guys like Torres, Lapierre, and Higgins scoring big goals to help the team win games.

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05-08-2013, 01:55 PM
  #611
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
"why is it that unless the Sedins or Kesler score at a 100+ point pace in a series does the team stand no chance?"
Raymond, Higgins, and Hansen have combined for 17 goals in 147 playoff games as Canucks.

The Sedins get no offensive suppport. Yes, they need to be better. But they need some help, too.

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05-08-2013, 02:01 PM
  #612
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Raymond, Higgins, and Hansen have combined for 17 goals in 147 playoff games as Canucks.

The Sedins get no offensive suppport. Yes, they need to be better. But they need some help, too.
That's exactly what I'm saying. The question is why does this team absolutely 100% need for the Sedins (or Kesler or the goaltender) to be heads and shoulders the best player on BOTH teams to be successful in a playoff series (hell pretty much any game)? Because that's what people are saying even if they don't realise it.

The others have to step up and get the team important wins. Once the supporting cast does that the team will have success, and until they do it really won't matter what those other 4 guys do anyways. And once the supporting cast does do that you will also see a much more consistent output from the big guys.

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05-08-2013, 02:02 PM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Shorthander View Post
Can the Sedins ever win? I really don't envy those guys sometimes.

If they focus on just playing the game they get called out for not fighting back against chumps like Marchand and not having any toughness/heart/intangibles/etc.

If they do fight back, they get called undisciplined.

If they throw a playoff style bodycheck in a playoff game OT, they go straight to the box.

I'm not even really sure what to suggest that they do anymore.

And I think its worth pointing out that other stars get shut down all the time too. Toews didn't score a single goal against Philly when the Hawks won the cup (and yet he still got the Conn Smythe, interestingly enough). Crosby didn't score either against the Wings when the Pens won. Who clinched the cup for them? Max f***ing Talbot. Sometimes the rest of the team needs to score once in a while. That's why we lost this year as opposed to 2011 where we had guys like Torres, Lapierre, and Higgins scoring big goals to help the team win games.
Toews and Crosby still ripped it up in general throughout their playoff runs. BIG difference. They also make their impact felt in other areas. The Sedins disappear in the playoffs. That's the way it is. They've had a good run the last several seasons in the playoffs, scoring at about a PPG clip. Credit to them for that, but it still seems like they disappear when the going gets tough. They have to do more within the individual tough games. For instance in Game 3 this year, they both assisted on a goal by Burrows. That's it. In a game like that, they need to figure out a way to do more. But that's the story of their careers, they'll find a way to bag an assist here and there, especially on the PP, but they need to have a much bigger impact.

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05-08-2013, 02:03 PM
  #614
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Raymond, Higgins, and Hansen have combined for 17 goals in 147 playoff games as Canucks.

The Sedins get no offensive suppport. Yes, they need to be better. But they need some help, too.
The Sedins get three times the salary, and top PP minutes. Plus, the other guys play hard PK time.

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05-08-2013, 02:07 PM
  #615
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The Sedins get three times the salary, and top PP minutes. Plus, the other guys play hard PK time.
Obvioulsy, the Canucks need more from the Sedins than they do from the guys I mentioned. But ANY production from your second and third line wingers would be nice.

Hell, Kesler only has 12 goals in 57 playoff games.

The Canucks need more production from the Sedins. That's clear. But they also need SOME production from the rest of the roster.

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05-08-2013, 02:12 PM
  #616
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Obvioulsy, the Canucks need more from the Sedins than they do from the guys I mentioned. But ANY production from your second and third line wingers would be nice.

Hell, Kesler only has 12 goals in 57 playoff games.

The Canucks need more production from the Sedins. That's clear. But they also need SOME production from the rest of the roster.
Agreed. The Sedins are the focal point of the scoring issue, but other players need to score too. Although, perhaps we are placing too much blame on the forwards, and letting the D off too easy?

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05-08-2013, 03:01 PM
  #617
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Agreed. The Sedins are the focal point of the scoring issue, but other players need to score too. Although, perhaps we are placing too much blame on the forwards, and letting the D off too easy?
I think the problem is that the Sedins are the focal point of the opposition because they don't need to focus on anybody else. Unless the guy is a generational talent (the Sedins aren't) a team is not going to succeed when you allow the opposition to key in on one line.

But yes we are letting the blueline off easy as well. Quite frankly this series you had Garrison at the top. Then you had Hamhuis. Then you had distant to them Edler and Bieksa. In particular Bieksa. Edler I'm not sure on. He didn't deliver based on his contract but then he was often saddled with Casual Kev which will hamper any D-man. If Edler gets to play game in and game out with the Garrison we saw the last half of the season how much better does he do?

I look for one of them to be moved. Bieksa will have to request a move (NTC correct?). Edler can be mvoed and likely for handsome return, but all things considered I'd move Bieksa. Then you bring in Corrado full time and that #5 guy needs to be a physical PKer IMO.

Hamhuis-Garrison
Edler-Tanev
physical-Corrado
Physical #7

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05-08-2013, 03:10 PM
  #618
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I'm done with the Sedin Experiment. These guys are suppose to be our stand out best players. In the playoffs they don't have what it takes.

Daniel 87 NHL playoff games played = 19 goals, 33 assists for 52 points

Henrik 80 NHL Playoff games played = 18 goals, 41 assists for 59 points

They average less than a goal every 4 games

We should trade them now while they are worth something. Maybe Florida's Number 3 pick?

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05-08-2013, 03:22 PM
  #619
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I'm done with the Sedin Experiment.

Daniel 87 NHL playoff games played = 19 goals, 33 assists for 52 points

Henrik 80 NHL Playoff games played = 18 goals, 41 assists for 59 points

We should trade them now while they are worth something. Maybe Florida's Number 3 pick?
So nice of you to include the 30+ games where they weren't go to guys. But whatever. Under Gillis (when they have been expected to be the offensive leaders with reasonable depth around them):

Daniel Sedin: 53 GP, 18 G, 31 A for 49 points....i.e. damn near point a game

Henrik Sedin: 56 GP, 12 G, 42 A, 54 points....hmm again a point per game.

(not only that but you have the stats wrong for their careers)

Name a canucks that has even come close to that production in the playoffs the last 5 seasons.

kesler: 56 GP, 12 G, 26 A for 38 points. Not bad but certainly nothing to write home about.

No one else is going to even come close to those types of point paces and THAT is the issue. 40 point regular season players become 0 point producers in the playoffs. Hansen 1 goal and point the past 2 series, Raymond 1 goal and 3 points, LaPierre 1 point, Higgins 0 points.

Yeah the blame clearly lies on Henrik Sedin and his 8 points in his last 9 playoff games (5 of which came last year where he couldn't do much more than what he did. He was very very good last year. Shame no one wants to remember that.)

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05-08-2013, 03:33 PM
  #620
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What's the point really? Right now fans will see what they want to see...

Sedins have been very average and the rest of the roster has been piss poor. This team is lacking chemistry - they just aren't gelling right now. Some changes to the core are needed but the Sedins are not one of them.

Later AV, you were awesome while you lasted. The irony is that his success is his ultimate demise.

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05-08-2013, 04:11 PM
  #621
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So nice of you to include the 30+ games where they weren't go to guys. But whatever. Under Gillis (when they have been expected to be the offensive leaders with reasonable depth around them):

Daniel Sedin: 53 GP, 18 G, 31 A for 49 points....i.e. damn near point a game

Henrik Sedin: 56 GP, 12 G, 42 A, 54 points....hmm again a point per game.

(not only that but you have the stats wrong for their careers)

Name a canucks that has even come close to that production in the playoffs the last 5 seasons.

kesler: 56 GP, 12 G, 26 A for 38 points. Not bad but certainly nothing to write home about.

No one else is going to even come close to those types of point paces and THAT is the issue. 40 point regular season players become 0 point producers in the playoffs. Hansen 1 goal and point the past 2 series, Raymond 1 goal and 3 points, LaPierre 1 point, Higgins 0 points.

Yeah the blame clearly lies on Henrik Sedin and his 8 points in his last 9 playoff games (5 of which came last year where he couldn't do much more than what he did. He was very very good last year. Shame no one wants to remember that.)
But, but, but... We need more players that'll play like badass'!

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05-08-2013, 04:17 PM
  #622
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So we need other people to step up so the Sedins don't have to? I don't agree with that at all.

Take out Henrik's outlier of a series against he Sharks a couple years ago and he is not a PPG player in the playoffs. In fact, even with that there he's still below a PPG, but it just doesn't look as bad.

When you go into any playoff series and your best players aren't your best players, you're in for a very difficult series no matter who you play against. Far too often the Sedins haven't been our best players. Time to move on.


Which forwards have been better? The twins haven't been good enough imo, but they're a lot closer to it than most of our group.

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05-08-2013, 04:31 PM
  #623
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Originally Posted by tantalum View Post
So nice of you to include the 30+ games where they weren't go to guys. But whatever. Under Gillis (when they have been expected to be the offensive leaders with reasonable depth around them):

Daniel Sedin: 53 GP, 18 G, 31 A for 49 points....i.e. damn near point a game

Henrik Sedin: 56 GP, 12 G, 42 A, 54 points....hmm again a point per game.

(not only that but you have the stats wrong for their careers)
I do not have their stats wrong.... check it out yourself... hockeydb.com. Don't include the years they weren't playing in the NHL.

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05-08-2013, 04:45 PM
  #624
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Look, let's face it - if you think you it's difficult to trade Luongo, it would be even harder to trade the twins as a package.

We should keep them, try to sign them to a lower or same cap hit, and start building a new 1st line out of Kesler, a prospect (Kassian) and a UFA playmaking winger (Tanguay-type, not actually Tanguay).

Or, put Kassian with the twins, and make a new 1st line out of a prospect, BUrrows and a UFA.

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05-08-2013, 05:21 PM
  #625
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So we need other people to step up so the Sedins don't have to? I don't agree with that at all.

Take out Henrik's outlier of a series against he Sharks a couple years ago and he is not a PPG player in the playoffs. In fact, even with that there he's still below a PPG, but it just doesn't look as bad.

When you go into any playoff series and your best players aren't your best players, you're in for a very difficult series no matter who you play against. Far too often the Sedins haven't been our best players. Time to move on.


He's below PPG in his career as well. Take out his outlier 112 point season and it would be even worse. His playoff production is about right where it should be, especially given the lack of scoring depth this team has shown, allowing top defenders to focus on him all the time.

No forward on the team was better than him this playoff (you can argue for Kesler, but he only showed up for two periods), nobody was better than him last year against the Kings, and nobody was better than him in 2011 (I'd say Kesler was about equal as he only showed up offensively against NSH).

Who have our best players been if not the Sedins?

It's almost as if you expect top players to double their production in the playoffs, and a maintenance or slight decline of regular season performance is a complete failure. Maybe that's why you were OK with Luongo letting in 6-8 goals...


Last edited by Lindt: 05-08-2013 at 05:35 PM.
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