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Old
05-11-2013, 11:59 PM
  #676
MajorCanuck
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Its starting to look more and more that the Sedins simply do not have what it takes to produce consistently anymore. They were always slow, and while fairly strong on the puck, are no where near big enough to create space. And worst, it seems their shots (which was already average at best) is heading the wrong way. I honestly do not consider them first liners a championship team anymore because I doubt they will ever hit that 100pt plateau again. Doesnt mean trade them, they could still be very important pieces to an offense, you just cnat build around them anymore imo.

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05-12-2013, 12:10 AM
  #677
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I feel bad saying, but as long as they are our 1st line players we will lose. They had a good run from 2010-12 where I thought differently but this season combined with the playoffs have me bad to thinking like I did after '08.

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05-12-2013, 12:25 AM
  #678
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I'm really interested to see if a new coach can help them succeed in the playoffs. If we don't think they will succeed in the playoffs together, I'll be interested to see how they play if they are on different lines.

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05-12-2013, 01:46 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by MajorCanuck View Post
Its starting to look more and more that the Sedins simply do not have what it takes to produce consistently anymore. They were always slow, and while fairly strong on the puck, are no where near big enough to create space. And worst, it seems their shots (which was already average at best) is heading the wrong way. I honestly do not consider them first liners a championship team anymore because I doubt they will ever hit that 100pt plateau again. Doesnt mean trade them, they could still be very important pieces to an offense, you just cnat build around them anymore imo.
The problem is that this new corner digging style and collapse to the net defense has effected the Sedins game more then any other players. They will have to find a way to innovate their game.

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05-12-2013, 01:49 AM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Assuming that the PP woes were not a direct result of a sub-par year for the twins, and rather some incompetent coaching, is it safe to assume that Henrik could have picked up 5 more points over the course of the shortened season? He's a top 10 scorer if that's the case. Top 5 if he added 10. How many points would he have picked up feeding a shoot-first point man with a bomb for a shot (if only they had someone like that!)?

I know, coulda woulda shoulda. But the death of the twins has been greatly exaggerated.
This.

If im not mistaken, the Sedins out pointed the Wings duo of Zberg and Dsyuk.

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05-12-2013, 01:58 AM
  #681
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Who has higher PPG in the playoffs? Sedin or Toews?

http://hkref.com/tiny/vnOyx

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05-12-2013, 02:49 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by John Swartzwelder View Post
Who has higher PPG in the playoffs? Sedin or Toews?

http://hkref.com/tiny/vnOyx
Wait. So in the past four years Hank is on a slightly higher scoring pace than Datsyuk? But I thought the Sedins sucked in the playoffs.

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05-12-2013, 07:39 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Wait. So in the past four years Hank is on a slightly higher scoring pace than Datsyuk? But I thought the Sedins sucked in the playoffs.
They've been pretty good as THE GUYS starting in 08, but that doesn't change the fact they had a bad year this year. Powerplay looked stagnant and they were a big part of the reason. 5 on 5 in the playoffs they weren't getting killed and outproduced by Thornton/Marleau like some people suggest.

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05-12-2013, 01:17 PM
  #684
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Without the Sedins this team wouldn't have made the playoffs very often over the previous 5 years. Because they are considered a package deal, trading them can only result in net loss; Vancouver would never receive 2 players of equal calibre in exchange.

The best move Gillis can make vis-a-vis the Sedins is to sign them to contract extensions on July 1. Let these guys retire in Canucks sweaters. For the next 3-5 years they will still be legit 1st liners. After that let them take secondary roles ala Trevor Linden.

I expect to see both Sedins inside the top 20 in scoring next year. If the team can add the right complimentary pieces, this core, led by the Sedins, can still compete for/win a cup.


Last edited by Chubros: 05-12-2013 at 02:26 PM.
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05-12-2013, 02:31 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Wait. So in the past four years Hank is on a slightly higher scoring pace than Datsyuk? But I thought the Sedins sucked in the playoffs.
Datsyuk +19, Henrik -6 over that same stretch.

That's 0.5 goals per game.

Henrik has been a very good player, but Datsyuk is quite a bit better.

 
Old
05-12-2013, 03:20 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by John Swartzwelder View Post
Who has higher PPG in the playoffs? Sedin or Toews?

http://hkref.com/tiny/vnOyx
This should put to bed the myth that the Sedins don't show up in the playoffs. They aren't generally spectacular, but they are far from being no-shows. They pretty much do what a reasonable person would expect of them.


Quote:
Originally Posted by MajorCanuck View Post
Its starting to look more and more that the Sedins simply do not have what it takes to produce consistently anymore. They were always slow, and while fairly strong on the puck, are no where near big enough to create space. And worst, it seems their shots (which was already average at best) is heading the wrong way. I honestly do not consider them first liners a championship team anymore because I doubt they will ever hit that 100pt plateau again. Doesnt mean trade them, they could still be very important pieces to an offense, you just cnat build around them anymore imo.
I wasn't aware that championship teams need 100 point players on their first line. I don't remember the Kings, Bruins or Hawks having any. Who do you propose we get that can put up those kind of numbers? I don't think Crosby or Malkin are available...:snakehead


Last edited by Lindt: 05-12-2013 at 03:25 PM.
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05-12-2013, 03:22 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by Chubros View Post
Without the Sedins this team wouldn't have made the playoffs very often over the previous 5 years. Because they are considered a package deal, trading them can only result in net loss; Vancouver would never receive 2 players of equal calibre in exchange.

The best move Gillis can make vis-a-vis the Sedins is to sign them to contract extensions on July 1. Let these guys retire in Canucks sweaters. For the next 3-5 years they will still be legit 1st liners. After that let them take secondary roles ala Trevor Linden.

I expect to see both Sedins inside the top 20 in scoring next year. If the team can add the right complimentary pieces, this core, led by the Sedins, can still compete for/win a cup.
The issue with dropping the twins to 2nd line status is that teams need more versatility from their 2nd liners. Generally, 2nd liners are not afforded the luxury (unless they are young players) of not killing penalties, playing physical, being solid defensively, etc. If dropped down to 2nd liners, can the twins get back to being good PKers? They aren't going to be any more physical at this stage of their careers. Need to be better defensively, if you are't going to be able to produce as much offensively.

Definately time for them to change their game, either play changing themselves or splitting them up and forcing them to not simply reply on a cycle game.

I agree however, that trading them would not net as much as it should on paper. Due to their contracts, when teams would have to take $12.2 million on in cap space. Have to take back player(s) with a cap charge to get something in return.

But, it may be time to cut ties and move on from them. Too much of the same old same old. They turn 34 at the start of the 13-14 season.

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05-12-2013, 03:34 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Datsyuk +19, Henrik -6 over that same stretch.

That's 0.5 goals per game.

Henrik has been a very good player, but Datsyuk is quite a bit better.
sorry that's not how you use the +/- stat.

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Old
05-12-2013, 05:01 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Goldrunner View Post
This.

If im not mistaken, the Sedins out pointed the Wings duo of Zberg and Dsyuk.
I don't think it's necessary to quit on the Sedins yet-unless management decides it's time to rebuild. Having the Sedins in your lineup will gaurantee a playoff spot every year. These are smart, cerebral players who should and WILL adapt to the game.

Like Gillis said, we should be surrounding them with some bigger, stronger and faster players.

Keep the Sedins and Kesler and look at trading Burrows for someone grittier.

I think Philly is probably out best trade partner.

Edler + Burrows for Couturier + Simmonds

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05-12-2013, 05:05 PM
  #690
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sorry that's not how you use the +/- stat.
It's also not how you use PPG, but that clearly ain't stopping anybody.

 
Old
05-12-2013, 05:37 PM
  #691
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Wait. So in the past four years Hank is on a slightly higher scoring pace than Datsyuk? But I thought the Sedins sucked in the playoffs.
Didn't you not notice how much of a liability the Sedins were in the last playoffs? Let alone most of their points came for the Sharks in the big 2011 run, they had 3 points this last playoffs but no goals, take out the Sharks series in 2011 and their stats are more telling. If you really think the Sedins step up in the playoffs where were they against the Bruins? Or this last playoffs? As long as Sedins are our go to guys we'll never win a cup, this team is screaming that its in need of a change and it should be the Sedins we move and go into a new era. I like the Sedins and their time here but if they stay here as the go to guys it's going to lead to more playoff failures for the Canucks, change for both the Sedins and Canucks is good, trade them off to the Sens they have the cap space and assets to make a deal and with Alfredsson there Sedins would love to play with him in his final year and have a chance at a cup.

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05-12-2013, 05:48 PM
  #692
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Originally Posted by Elliot20 View Post
I don't think it's necessary to quit on the Sedins yet-unless management decides it's time to rebuild. Having the Sedins in your lineup will gaurantee a playoff spot every year. These are smart, cerebral players who should and WILL adapt to the game.

Like Gillis said, we should be surrounding them with some bigger, stronger and faster players.

Keep the Sedins and Kesler and look at trading Burrows for someone grittier.

I think Philly is probably out best trade partner.

Edler + Burrows for Couturier + Simmonds
You know Couturier is a bad skater right? Many believe that his skating will keep him from being that top 6 center, I wouldn't pay that big of a price but he would be a great 3rd line center with potential as he is a very strong shutdown guy and would be a great replacement for Malhotra, wouldn't have a issue with him here but not at a price of our #1 D and Burrows, I really don't think Gillis touches Kesler, Bieksa or Burrows those guys are super tight and I would think they would make up the new core with a Sedinless team.

If we trade Edler it does open up a big hole on our D

Hamhuis Bieksa
Garrison Tanev
Alberts Corrado

Compare to

Edler Garrison
Hamhuis Bieksa
Alberts Tanev

Maybe replace Alberts with Corrado

Our D without Edler is pretty small and that will be a problem in our new division.

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Old
05-12-2013, 06:13 PM
  #693
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Originally Posted by Derp Kassian View Post
They've been pretty good as THE GUYS starting in 08, but that doesn't change the fact they had a bad year this year. Powerplay looked stagnant and they were a big part of the reason. 5 on 5 in the playoffs they weren't getting killed and outproduced by Thornton/Marleau like some people suggest.
I was more being facetious. The Sedins were underwhelming this year, although I fault the powerplay on coaching because of how consistently awful it has been a year.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Datsyuk +19, Henrik -6 over that same stretch.

That's 0.5 goals per game.

Henrik has been a very good player, but Datsyuk is quite a bit better.
Not an entirely fair comparison since Hank has been involved in blowout games that were not his fault. Nevertheless, I was again, just being facetious. The way people talk, it's as though the Sedins are worthless and never produce in the playoffs. For Hank to have even a marginal lead on Datsyuk ruins that claim.

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Originally Posted by iFan View Post
Didn't you not notice how much of a liability the Sedins were in the last playoffs? Let alone most of their points came for the Sharks in the big 2011 run, they had 3 points this last playoffs but no goals, take out the Sharks series in 2011 and their stats are more telling. If you really think the Sedins step up in the playoffs where were they against the Bruins? Or this last playoffs? As long as Sedins are our go to guys we'll never win a cup, this team is screaming that its in need of a change and it should be the Sedins we move and go into a new era. I like the Sedins and their time here but if they stay here as the go to guys it's going to lead to more playoff failures for the Canucks, change for both the Sedins and Canucks is good, trade them off to the Sens they have the cap space and assets to make a deal and with Alfredsson there Sedins would love to play with him in his final year and have a chance at a cup.
Henrik was injured against the Bruins, as was the entire team for the most part. To fault them for that series is disingenuous at best. We also have to account for proper context. They matched up against Keith/Seabrook and Weber/Suter respectively. Doing so is undoubtedly going to hinder their productivity.

Trading them is not even a remote possibility. No team is going to offer what we deem a reasonable return due to necessitating both go to the same team. It is a deluded notion to believe we can dump that much cap and get an abundance of pieces back in the process. And if we are not getting said pieces, what motivation is there to move our two best forwards? A theory they underperform in the playoffs? What we end up with is a heap of largely mediocre prospects (if that) and perpetual mediocrity until one of them produces, if they ever do.

If you are expecting Ottawa to move guys like Zibanejad, Silverberg and etc for the Sedins. You will be sorely disappointed.

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05-12-2013, 06:19 PM
  #694
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Didn't you not notice how much of a liability the Sedins were in the last playoffs? Let alone most of their points came for the Sharks in the big 2011 run, they had 3 points this last playoffs but no goals, take out the Sharks series in 2011 and their stats are more telling. If you really think the Sedins step up in the playoffs where were they against the Bruins? Or this last playoffs? As long as Sedins are our go to guys we'll never win a cup, this team is screaming that its in need of a change and it should be the Sedins we move and go into a new era. I like the Sedins and their time here but if they stay here as the go to guys it's going to lead to more playoff failures for the Canucks, change for both the Sedins and Canucks is good, trade them off to the Sens they have the cap space and assets to make a deal and with Alfredsson there Sedins would love to play with him in his final year and have a chance at a cup.
I noticed that Henrik Sedin was by far the team's best skater against the Kings last year and that Daniel Sedin was injured.

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05-12-2013, 06:40 PM
  #695
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I noticed that Henrik Sedin was by far the team's best skater against the Kings last year and that Daniel Sedin was injured.
Similar to when Daniel broke his foot.

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05-12-2013, 06:45 PM
  #696
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I noticed that Henrik Sedin was by far the team's best skater against the Kings last year and that Daniel Sedin was injured.
And I noticed how the Sedins have been declining and have a case against them as possibly one of the worse players on the Canucks this last playoffs, Sedins cost us game two and game four. People want to talking about moving on from Luongo and AV but IMHO Sedins have been doing a worse on ice performance than those two, given the Canucks biggest issues is scoring and the Sedins went scoreless against the Sharks and sucked it up in the SCF, people love to hate on Bieksa but Bieksa played 30+ mins injured and did a much better job than the twins and he shows a lot more leadership and heart. Some fans are so blind with the twins and Canucks will never win with them as our main offensive weapons to depend on. Canucks need change and if we can only move the Sedins or AV, I'd pick moving the Sedins, but this isn't the case and we can move players and coaches, AV needs a change just as much as the twins and Luongo.

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05-12-2013, 06:47 PM
  #697
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I'm really tired of the Sedins. The lack of urgency in their game in the playoffs, the way they will just disappear for most of the game (if not all of it). Their lack of goal scoring ability. The fact that they aren't broken up ever, thus limiting our lineup flexibility. Their lack of grit. You can do whatever simplistic high level analysis that you want, and sure the cover may look good but when you dive in deeper and look at their actual playoff production this novel is not one I want to continue reading. They are very inconsistent and are often exposed defensively. I really wish we would just move on.

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05-12-2013, 07:01 PM
  #698
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I'm really tired of the Sedins. The lack of urgency in their game in the playoffs, the way they will just disappear for most of the game (if not all of it). Their lack of goal scoring ability. The fact that they aren't broken up ever, thus limiting our lineup flexibility. Their lack of grit. You can do whatever simplistic high level analysis that you want, and sure the cover may look good but when you dive in deeper and look at their actual playoff production this novel is not one I want to continue reading. They are very inconsistent and are often exposed defensively. I really wish we would just move on.
Really, really brutally honest opinion. I don't think we move them but if they are on our first line next year then we might as well admit defeat. Their window is closed now as first line players.

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05-12-2013, 07:09 PM
  #699
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Really, really brutally honest opinion. I don't think we move them but if they are on our first line next year then we might as well admit defeat. Their window is closed now as first line players.
I agree with you, although I fully expect they will be here in their current roles next year. Not enough cap space to bump them to the 2nd line, and no young talent pushing them for top line minutes (we traded that away).

My biggest fear is that we extend them.

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05-12-2013, 07:10 PM
  #700
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Really, really brutally honest opinion. I don't think we move them but if they are on our first line next year then we might as well admit defeat. Their window is closed now as first line players.
Oh ye of little faith. I'm glad I'm not one of your flock, Reverend.

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