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Old
05-27-2013, 08:23 PM
  #876
RobertKron
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
If my plans require 10 feet of rain, yes, absolutely I would be (and should be) worried.

The question was asked a year ago - what does this team look like, especially in the playoffs - if the Sedins are never again more than 70-80 point guys? Management hasn't answered that, yet. If anything, they in effect assumed the "10 feet of rain" scenario by trading away the most offensively gifted assets the team had.

Anyway, I trust the fan base is now clear that the Sedins are playing out their contracts as 70-80 point guys. So the team is going nowhere without another legitimate, consistent scoring line.

Hopefully management has clued in, too.
Was this any less true when they were winning Art Ross trophies?

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05-27-2013, 08:41 PM
  #877
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Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Either you are willfully obtuse or just being obnoxious at this point. Either way, let us attempt a walkthrough to correlate the stats. Here we see a consistency of six, therefore making that the average expected from the Sedins. Nine is the obvious standout and suggests an anomaly in performance. For all intents and purposes they hit lightning in a bottle, won the lottery, got their ducks in a row, the stars aligned. Whatever fancy anecdote you wish to articulate, what we see is they played above the average; a rarity for the most part.
skip the hocus pocus here, we are simply talking about production of hockey players and it's really simple. almost every 1st line player in the NHL has a scoring curve that generally follows age, they start off lower, hit a peak then there is a decline.

The Sedins production has declined for 3 straight years since 10 period. Since they are still getting older and haven't found a time machine it's not unreasonable to expect a further decline in 14 is it?

Take off your Canucks sweater and look at the majority of other players if you can't get past your "what I wish would happen, instead of what logic and history tells us"

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In conclusion, there is no decline, so much as they played above expectations in a season where near everything went our way until Boston.
The Sedins had one excellent series against San Jose and a terrible one against Boston. At best they were average, and that's being charitable in the other two series.



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And as has been explained to your now to the point of redundancy. Offensive zone starts contribute little and the emphasis you insist on perpetuating is marginal at best. Statistics rebuttal your claims because all that changed from past seasons to now is our powerplay free falling into irrelevancy.
Why was Viggy playing that line more in the offensive zone than in the past if it has no meaning or influence?

Just because you say something and maybe even believe it (against logic)doesn't mean it's true.

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Had we maintained our up tempo system and actually scored on the powerplay, the Sedins numbers would have remained near identical to the seasons before. Perhaps not eclipsing 100 points, but that in and of itself was an unsustainable production.
So basically there would have been no decline if the Sedins had scored the same amount of points? it's not them aging or declining it's the change in the system now?



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How about they have no relevancy and AV use to be a forward thinker until he clung to a predictable and stagnate system every other team had long adapted to?
The biggest problem was the lack of new talent and other guys declining from their peak levels of play.



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If that is the case, why do you continue to disregard the downward spiral of our powerplay? It has an enormous impact on the productivity of players who, in seasons past, have feasted on its success. And before you attempt to twist this into a fitting narrative for your agenda, take note the Sedins were not properly utilized and the powerplay was a disaster for reasons that do not include them.
How were the Sedins not properly utilized in PP situations?

The decline in production is a decline at the end of the day it doesn't matter, all that much in which situation it comes in. it might matter in which games the scoring does and doesn't come from but I'm talking about overall seasons and comapring the last 4.



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Only because you are attaching irrelevant hyperbole and hockey cliches like "intangibles" as if they were statistically verifiable and not simple fiction. Toews had an insane 1.3 PPG back in 2010. Three years now and twenty three playoff games later he has mustered twelve points and has been largely invisible throughout that stretch. By your 'evidence' he would be on the decline by virtue he has not maintained a consistent pace since "lightning in a bottle struck."
Regular seasons have similar schedules and opponents, playoffs don't they are more random in nature.

One, regular seasons, are easier and more fair to compare from year to year than the other one, playoffs.

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Incidentally, Henrik has six points in nine games since 2012, while Toews has eight in sixteen. So, who is declining here?
By any metric, Toews total playoff resume is much greater than the Sedins, you really need to give that idea a rest.

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Old
05-27-2013, 08:46 PM
  #878
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Was this any less true when they were winning Art Ross trophies?
Keslord had 40 and coincidentally, we made it to the SCF. Huh.

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05-27-2013, 09:18 PM
  #879
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One thing I noticed looking back on it all is how slow they've played the cycle compared to past years. They aren't throwing as many picks, they aren't making their moves on the outside fast enough to cut inside and in general have not been using their space given to them. It's a bad trend if my observations continue. The cycle game needs to have some agility in it.

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06-03-2013, 08:23 PM
  #880
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So... Malkin and Crosby are basically looking like the Sedins did vs the Bruins in the finals.

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06-03-2013, 10:15 PM
  #881
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
So... Malkin and Crosby are basically looking like the Sedins did vs the Bruins in the finals.
And the rest of their team isn't injured either

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06-03-2013, 10:18 PM
  #882
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So... Malkin and Crosby are basically looking like the Sedins did vs the Bruins in the finals.
minus getting slapped around by a midget. I imagine that makes it easier to take... along with them only being two games in.

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06-03-2013, 11:37 PM
  #883
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One thing I noticed looking back on it all is how slow they've played the cycle compared to past years. They aren't throwing as many picks, they aren't making their moves on the outside fast enough to cut inside and in general have not been using their space given to them. It's a bad trend if my observations continue. The cycle game needs to have some agility in it.
What about the slow speed passes? How many times were they intercepted this last season? The Sedin's seem to have lost quick release on shots, too and it shows.

I love these players and have always marvelled at their abilities but the decline is very evident, IMO. Actually, I am surprised at the spirited defense of the twins. They are aging, how can that be in contention?

I think a second scoring line is needed, too, but I think it should be a first line. I doubt the Canucks agree. Maybe they know and aren't admitting?

The Sedins are a giant block of cap space and I hold, respectfully, that the time has come to move the Sedins for picks or prospects. Detroit looks like a good place for them. I'd trade both of them for Abdelkader. It isn't even a question of who or what you get back, the Sedins have had their kick at the cat. Vigneault's departure signified the end of the Sedin era because no other coach will use them as effectively. That's twelve million poorly spent, if they are kept.

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Old
06-04-2013, 12:59 AM
  #884
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minus getting slapped around by a midget. I imagine that makes it easier to take... along with them only being two games in.
The way the Pens are playing, they might only have two games left.

Not to mention that midget was probably too busy being the first star of the game while the Pens ran around with their heads cut off trying to "PLAY PHYZICAL", similar to a certain Vancouver Canucks team.

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06-04-2013, 01:04 AM
  #885
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When we went to the finals we had the Sedins putting up Art Ross numbers, Kesler scoring 40 goals, an insane amount of production from our defence, the best powerplay in the league....

Right now we have none of that.

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06-04-2013, 02:28 AM
  #886
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All I know is, I want Krejci.

When that series began and I saw Sedin-Kesler vs Krejci-Bergeron, I was convinced we had the edge. A Hart and Art Ross winner vs a barely PPG centerman with no physical edge.

Boy was I wrong, Krejci can elevate his game, Henrik can't. And it's all downhill from here. They blew their one chance.

Should be another 12-18 years before we can compete for a championship again, such is the cycle of being a Canucks fan.

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06-04-2013, 02:49 AM
  #887
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Originally Posted by PoolChamp View Post
So... Malkin and Crosby are basically looking like the Sedins did vs the Bruins in the finals.
At least they're not vilified by the media and every other fan base out there.

Not only did the Sedins get slapped around, they were labelled divers, sissies and chokers.

Worst part is, they were getting the same amount of **** from our own fan base.

I can't even begin to imagine what went through their mind during 2011.

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Old
06-04-2013, 09:25 AM
  #888
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
minus getting slapped around by a midget. I imagine that makes it easier to take... along with them only being two games in.
what does that have to do with playing hockey? seems like a useless thing to say.

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06-04-2013, 09:26 AM
  #889
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Originally Posted by FloydTheBarber View Post
All I know is, I want Krejci.

When that series began and I saw Sedin-Kesler vs Krejci-Bergeron, I was convinced we had the edge. A Hart and Art Ross winner vs a barely PPG centerman with no physical edge.

Boy was I wrong, Krejci can elevate his game, Henrik can't. And it's all downhill from here. They blew their one chance.

Should be another 12-18 years before we can compete for a championship again, such is the cycle of being a Canucks fan.
Henrick is as good as Krejci; it's more a function of teammates that separates their play. Krejci get to play with Lucic and Horton. Henrick only has Daniel and Burrows. It's the teammates too, and those two Bruins are a lot bigger and tougher than Daniel and Burrows. Plus, there is the Chara factor. Having a great D-man like Chara take care of the d-zone allows the forwards to play with more confidence.

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06-04-2013, 09:30 AM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
minus getting slapped around by a midget. I imagine that makes it easier to take... along with them only being two games in.
Marchand is not a midget; he's a troll. Deharnais, Gionta, and Schroeder are midgets. Get it right!

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06-04-2013, 09:34 AM
  #891
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what does that have to do with playing hockey? seems like a useless thing to say.
Hockey (at the NHL level, especially in the play-offs) is a tough game. There is absolutely a battle of wills. Each team in a series is trying to impose their will (style of play) on the other. This includes a lot of nasty stuff, like 'speed bagging' another player's head, who - for some unexplainable reason - refuses to fight back.

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06-04-2013, 02:40 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Hockey (at the NHL level, especially in the play-offs) is a tough game. There is absolutely a battle of wills. Each team in a series is trying to impose their will (style of play) on the other. This includes a lot of nasty stuff, like 'speed bagging' another player's head, who - for some unexplainable reason - refuses to fight back.
Maybe because he (quite reasonably) expected to get his team a PP out of it? It's not a difficult concept. Granted, it doesn't work as often as should because of the piss poor officiating.

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06-04-2013, 02:56 PM
  #893
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Maybe because he (quite reasonably) expected to get his team a PP out of it? It's not a difficult concept. Granted, it doesn't work as often as should because of the piss poor officiating.
What good would a PP be when they were down 5-2 with 1:30 left in the game?

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06-04-2013, 02:57 PM
  #894
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Maybe because he (quite reasonably) expected to get his team a PP out of it? It's not a difficult concept. Granted, it doesn't work as often as should because of the piss poor officiating.
Agreed. The Bruins were able to impose their style of play on the Canucks in that series.

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06-04-2013, 03:00 PM
  #895
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Marchand is not a midget; he's a troll.
What he did to Cooke last night was incredible - as good a troll job as I've ever seen, I think.

 
Old
06-04-2013, 03:01 PM
  #896
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Hockey (at the NHL level, especially in the play-offs) is a tough game. There is absolutely a battle of wills. Each team in a series is trying to impose their will (style of play) on the other. This includes a lot of nasty stuff, like 'speed bagging' another player's head, who - for some unexplainable reason - refuses to fight back.
I don't see Boston relying on Krejci/bergeron for toughness, I don't see Chicago relying on Kane/Hossa for toughness, I don't see Toronto relying on Kessel for toughness. why the hell do the Sedins have to be tough?

only reason would be... because this team is built like complete **** and the Sedins have to do everything..

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06-04-2013, 03:11 PM
  #897
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what does that have to do with playing hockey? seems like a useless thing to say.
The twins have to be willing to push back to play good hockey. Malkin and Crosby are, they're closer to getting something done than the twins were. That was my point.

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I don't see Boston relying on Krejci/bergeron for toughness, I don't see Chicago relying on Kane/Hossa for toughness, I don't see Toronto relying on Kessel for toughness. why the hell do the Sedins have to be tough?

only reason would be... because this team is built like complete **** and the Sedins have to do everything..
I agree, the twins haven't been supported well enough. That doesn't excuse them from sticking up for themselves.

Did you see Bergeron fight Malkin?

Krecji is tough, he's targeted a lot because of the way the Bruins play. Doesn't effect the way he plays in the least... might actually make him play better.

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06-04-2013, 03:13 PM
  #898
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What good would a PP be when they were down 5-2 with 1:30 left in the game?
Yeah. On a purely emotional level, I wish he'd just cross-checked Marchand in the face, but it was largely irrelevant. The lack of perceived emotion irks people, though.

The Sedins are maligned for that sort of thing, but any North American skilled player that receives similar treatment just brings out the "Greztky had Semenko!" nonsense from the knuckle-draggers.

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06-04-2013, 03:17 PM
  #899
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I don't see Boston relying on Krejci/bergeron for toughness, I don't see Chicago relying on Kane/Hossa for toughness, I don't see Toronto relying on Kessel for toughness. why the hell do the Sedins have to be tough?

only reason would be... because this team is built like complete **** and the Sedins have to do everything..
This is a good point. Although Bergeron and Hossa play much more physical games than the twins, I will give you Kane and Krejci. Maybe the difference between the top teams and the Canucks is not the forwards, but the D? The more I read posts like yours (which do make some sense) the more I lean to the Canucks missing a top D-man. Chara, Doughty, Keith, Letang and the list goes on.

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06-04-2013, 03:21 PM
  #900
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This is a good point. Although Bergeron and Hossa play much more physical games than the twins, I will give you Kane and Krejci. Maybe the difference between the top teams and the Canucks is not the forwards, but the D? The more I read posts like yours (which do make some sense) the more I lean to the Canucks missing a top D-man. Chara, Doughty, Keith, Letang and the list goes on.
Most of the Pens board were willing to trade Letang last night.

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