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Carkner, Boulton, Martin, & C.MAC

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Old
04-19-2013, 09:36 AM
  #1
AndThereGoesGrabner
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Carkner, Boulton, Martin, & C.MAC

Watching the replay of the Isles game this morning, I can't emphasize how important it is to have a few tough SOB's on a team. When the Leafs had a two goal lead & basically started to bully the Isles skilled players, Cark & Boulton lowered the hammer & the game totally changed. It is no coincident that the Isles are playing with more confidence & swag this season, because they know they cn play their game & if any team wants to rough it up, we got our own soldiers. Carkner, C.MAC, & Bolts was a damn good move by Garth.

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04-19-2013, 09:47 AM
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the way Carkner got beat on the 1st goal is ridiculous. You just had to see that coming. There's nothing wrong with toughness but toughness without finesse is a waste.

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04-19-2013, 09:49 AM
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InformTheMasses
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Game didn't change at all. Isles dominated from the start. If it weren't for carkner getting burned and taking penalties Nabby would have been going for a shutout.

Carkner and Bolton are completely useless. I'm not asking for a team full of softies but their effect on the game is being drastically overstated. Even with their presence the only thing Toronto did better than the islanders was throw hits. Didn't matter as they had a parade to the sin bin and chased the puck all night. 'Carks' and 'bolts' as you call them didn't have a thing to do with it.

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04-19-2013, 10:02 AM
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Originally Posted by SpeedDemon View Post
the way Carkner got beat on the 1st goal is ridiculous. You just had to see that coming. There's nothing wrong with toughness but toughness without finesse is a waste.
Exactly, we wouldn't have been in that position if Carkner wasn't such a cone. The best thing about the Carkner fight was getting him off the ice for 5 minutes.

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04-19-2013, 10:14 AM
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Game didn't change at all. Isles dominated from the start. If it weren't for carkner getting burned and taking penalties Nabby would have been going for a shutout.

Carkner and Bolton are completely useless. I'm not asking for a team full of softies but their effect on the game is being drastically overstated. Even with their presence the only thing Toronto did better than the islanders was throw hits. Didn't matter as they had a parade to the sin bin and chased the puck all night. 'Carks' and 'bolts' as you call them didn't have a thing to do with it.
we all know that Carkner is not going to win many footraces. but if he wasn't there last night, maybe Phaneuf would have pounded Tavares into a concussion. then where would we be? you can argue all you want, but in the best league in the world, and on the best teams, tough guys are employed. that tells you something...

i personally hate having intimidation and maiming players as part of the game, but it is what it is right now.

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04-19-2013, 10:18 AM
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we all know that Carkner is not going to win many footraces. but if he wasn't there last night, maybe Phaneuf would have pounded Tavares into a concussion. then where would we be? you can argue all you want, but in the best league in the world, and on the best teams, tough guys are employed. that tells you something...
I didn't notice Phaneuf backing off Tavares at all. I did notice that he's just not good enough to keep up with him.

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04-19-2013, 10:19 AM
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we all know that Carkner is not going to win many footraces. but if he wasn't there last night, maybe Phaneuf would have pounded Tavares into a concussion. then where would we be? you can argue all you want, but in the best league in the world, and on the best teams, tough guys are employed. that tells you something...

i personally hate having intimidation and maiming players as part of the game, but it is what it is right now.
100% correct @ Well said!

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04-19-2013, 10:28 AM
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AndThereGoesGrabner
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Oh BTW, I also watched Carkner punish some guys who were in front of the net last night. Yes, he is not a great skater, but he does his job when needed. He also was pretty darn good against the Rangers in the playoffs last year. For you guys who think hockey is just about scoring and skating up & down the ice, THEN YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!!! Isles won their Cups because they had guys like Morrow, Nystrom, Howett, & a slew of tough SOBS. Intimidation & Physical play seperate the men from the boys. Detroit didn't win their Cups until they got guys like McCarty, Shanahan, Holmstrom,...etc.

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04-19-2013, 10:36 AM
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Oh BTW, I also watched Carkner punish some guys who were in front of the net last night. Yes, he is not a great skater, but he does his job when needed. He also was pretty darn good against the Rangers in the playoffs last year. For you guys who think hockey is just about scoring and skating up & down the ice, THEN YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!!! Isles won their Cups because they had guys like Morrow, Nystrom, Howett, & a slew of tough SOBS. Intimidation & Physical play seperate the men from the boys. Detroit didn't win their Cups until they got guys like McCarty, Shanahan, Holmstrom,...etc.
LOL, thanks for clearing that up, me and so many others are lost without this exact expert analysis. It's exactly what I was getting at by saying Carkner and Boulton are useless. It's all up and down skating and scoring and nothing else. How you made that leap I am not sure, but you're the expert.

Also, Wake me up when Carkner and Boulton turn into Shanahan and Holmstrom.

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04-19-2013, 10:44 AM
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As has been noted earlier, the only reason Carkner felt the need to spark the team with his fight was because he directly put him in the 2-0 hole to begin with. Team toughness is very important, but I want guys who are tough that can actually play. Martin and McDonald fit that description. Carkner and Boulton do not.

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04-19-2013, 10:45 AM
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As has been noted earlier, the only reason Carkner felt the need to spark the team with his fight was because he directly put him in the 2-0 hole to begin with. Team toughness is very important, but I want guys who are tough that can actually play. Martin and McDonald fit that description. Carkner and Boulton do not.
Yeah, I'm sure there is a lot of Milan Lucic out there!

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04-19-2013, 10:47 AM
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LOL, thanks for clearing that up, me and so many others are lost without this exact expert analysis. It's exactly what I was getting at by saying Carkner and Boulton are useless. It's all up and down skating and scoring and nothing else. How you made that leap I am not sure, but you're the expert.

Also, Wake me up when Carkner and Boulton turn into Shanahan and Holmstrom.
I'm not comparing Carkner/Boulton to Shanny or Holmstrom, just talking about that element. BUT YOUR TOO MUCH INTO YOURSELF TO HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION!

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04-19-2013, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Giuseppe Franco View Post
As has been noted earlier, the only reason Carkner felt the need to spark the team with his fight was because he directly put him in the 2-0 hole to begin with. Team toughness is very important, but I want guys who are tough that can actually play. Martin and McDonald fit that description. Carkner and Boulton do not.
I've never really been in favor of having a D-man as one of your fighters. You really tax the rest of the group when you have to play 5 D because he's in the box so much. We only need one of them in the lineup on certain occasions and i'd rather that be Boulton. I just don't see the facination with Carkner and I don't think he's going to be a difference maker in the playoffs.

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04-19-2013, 11:05 AM
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Yeah, I'm sure there is a lot of Milan Lucic out there!
Yeah, cos when I say toughness and skill it automatically means Milan Lucic. It can't mean the two guys I just used as an example - Matt Martin and Colin McDonald.

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04-19-2013, 11:34 AM
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Yeah, cos when I say toughness and skill it automatically means Milan Lucic. It can't mean the two guys I just used as an example - Matt Martin and Colin McDonald.
Oh Please, Matt Martin and Colin Mcdonald is not enough when you play a gooned up team like the leafs or Bruins.
Matt Martin and Colin McDonald who by the way only has 1 FIGHT all year is not going to cut it against teams like the Bruins and the Leafs.
Toronto dresses 3 damn HW fighters every single night. The dress HW goons Orr and Frazer Mclaren on the 4th line every night along with having HW fighter Mark Fraser on d. Matt Martin and Colin Mcdonald can not match up with those big time HW fighting goons who run and bully teams all year.
Anyone complaining about Carnker or Boulton being in the lineup against a team like the leafs is absurd. When the leafs are dressing 3 HW fighters and dirt bags like dion you need Carnker and Blots to even things out. Sorry, Matt Martin can not handle those types of big boys. Please with Colin Macdonald, the guy has 1 damn fight on the who year.


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04-19-2013, 11:35 AM
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the way Carkner got beat on the 1st goal is ridiculous. You just had to see that coming. There's nothing wrong with toughness but toughness without finesse is a waste.
I could swear I heard this on the old TV show Kung Fu, or Mr. Myagi said it.

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04-19-2013, 11:47 AM
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Game didn't change at all. Isles dominated from the start. If it weren't for carkner getting burned and taking penalties Nabby would have been going for a shutout.

Carkner and Bolton are completely useless. I'm not asking for a team full of softies but their effect on the game is being drastically overstated. Even with their presence the only thing Toronto did better than the islanders was throw hits. Didn't matter as they had a parade to the sin bin and chased the puck all night. 'Carks' and 'bolts' as you call them didn't have a thing to do with it.

BS. After that fight they played like a different team. Brad Boyes and Capuano even butch along with others who were interviewed after the game said those fights changes the momentum of the game.
I know we all love to make fun of Butch but the guy has played the game before and knows the importance of toughness. I'll take guys opinions like Butches,Cappy,Boyes and the players WHO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME over any of you arm chair coach opinions any day.

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04-19-2013, 11:54 AM
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OHhPlease, Matt Martin and Colin Mcdonald is not enough when you play a gooned up team like the leafs or Bruins.
Matt Martin and Colin McDonald who by the way only has 1 FIGHT all year is not going to cut it against teams like the Bruins and the Leafs.
Toronto dresses 3 damn HW fighters every single night. The dress HW goons Orr and Frazer Mclaren on the 4th line every night along with having HW fighter Mark Fraser on d. Matt Martin and Colin Mcdonald can not match up with those big time HW fighting goons who run and bully teams all year.
Anyone complaining about Carnker or Boulton being in the lineup against a team like the leafs is absurd. When the leafs are dressing 3 HW fighters and dirt bags like dion you need Carnker and Blots to even things out.
And if you didn't see what a liability it was having those two guys on the ice, then I don't know what to tell you. One guy was directly responsible for putting the team in a 2-0 deficit and the other is go good he's played a grand total of 13 games.

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04-19-2013, 11:56 AM
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Why does this need to be a poster vs poster mano a mano argument?

The truth is, we needed the toughness as in past years we were taken advantage of. That said, when guys like Carkner play, you are conceding skill for protection. And there are not very many tough guys that are also skilled so you take what you can get in that category. So everyone's correct here.

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04-19-2013, 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by AndThereGoesGrabner View Post
Watching the replay of the Isles game this morning, I can't emphasize how important it is to have a few tough SOB's on a team. When the Leafs had a two goal lead & basically started to bully the Isles skilled players, Cark & Boulton lowered the hammer & the game totally changed. It is no coincident that the Isles are playing with more confidence & swag this season, because they know they cn play their game & if any team wants to rough it up, we got our own soldiers. Carkner, C.MAC, & Bolts was a damn good move by Garth.
Totally agree. Anyone who thinks Carnker and Boulton were not needed for last nights game obviously plays too much NHL 2013 and thinks this is a video game. When you have goons like Orr,Mclaren,Fraser you can not go into the game with no one to answer the bell if those guys start bullying teams like they have been doing all year. I dont want to hear a word about Matt Martin, he's great when it comes to the middle weights or the occasional light HW but Martin would be sent to the ER if he were to dare to try to do anything a guy like Orr or Mclaren or Fraser. That is why you need Boulton and Carnker to take care of guys like Orr,Mclaren and Fraser.

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04-19-2013, 12:10 PM
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Totally agree. Anyone who thinks Carnker and Boulton were not needed for last nights game obviously plays too much NHL 2013 and thinks this is a video game. When you have goons like Orr,Mclaren,Fraser you can not go into the game with no one to answer the bell if those guys start bullying teams like they have been doing all year. I dont want to hear a word about Matt Martin, he's great when it comes to the middle weights or the occasional light HW but Martin would be sent to the ER if he were to dare to try to do anything a guy like Orr or Mclaren or Fraser. That is why you need Boulton and Carnker to take care of guys like Orr,Mclaren and Fraser.
Unfortunetly this is true but this is also what sucks about the game. I like a good fight just as much as the next guy but I can't stand goon hockey. I can understand that you have to match up goons for some games esp when it gets down to the end the season .

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04-19-2013, 12:11 PM
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And if you didn't see what a liability it was having those two guys on the ice, then I don't know what to tell you. One guy was directly responsible for putting the team in a 2-0 deficit and the other is go good he's played a grand total of 13 games.
To be fair, I'll agree. Carnker looked Awful on the first goal, i'll admit that, but overall he has played a pretty solid game all year.
He's been great at clearing guys out in front of the net and being that tough nasty big mean dman we have all wanted for years now. Carkner may not be the fastest skater, or most skilled but he brings an element to this team that no one else can. Look no past the end of the Philly game where Harttnal tried to get rough at the end of the game and Carkner came over and you could see the fear in Harttnals face.

Do you realize Carnker is not a finess defender? It should not come as a suprise he's going to look off sometimes. He is here to provide toughness on our blue line, and protection as well as play a sound stay at home game who for the most part has player pretty decent all year.

Who cares if Boulton played 13 games, he was not in the lineup to score goals, if you ever played the game before you would know that.

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04-19-2013, 12:22 PM
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we all know that Carkner is not going to win many footraces. but if he wasn't there last night, maybe Phaneuf would have pounded Tavares into a concussion. then where would we be? you can argue all you want, but in the best league in the world, and on the best teams, tough guys are employed. that tells you something...

i personally hate having intimidation and maiming players as part of the game, but it is what it is right now.
Maybe Phaneuf would have pounded Tavares? That's what we're going with here? Do you honestly believe that Phaneuf sees Carkner or Boulton and says to himself, 'Yeah, I guess I can't hit Tavares tonight'?

Tough guys are employed by cup teams, but those tough guys can actually play the game as well and aren't a huge liability when they are on the ice. How many fights do we see each year in the playoffs? Not many.

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Oh BTW, I also watched Carkner punish some guys who were in front of the net last night. Yes, he is not a great skater, but he does his job when needed. He also was pretty darn good against the Rangers in the playoffs last year. For you guys who think hockey is just about scoring and skating up & down the ice, THEN YOU HAVE NO CLUE!!!! Isles won their Cups because they had guys like Morrow, Nystrom, Howett, & a slew of tough SOBS. Intimidation & Physical play seperate the men from the boys. Detroit didn't win their Cups until they got guys like McCarty, Shanahan, Holmstrom,...etc.
Hickey is one of our better defenseman because he doesn't make mistakes in his own end often, can outskate the opponent, and he turns the puck up ice extremely well. All Carkner does is hit things, sometimes, and then drops the gloves.

Morrow and Nystrom could actually play the game, they weren't goons. The same goes with the Detroit boys.

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I'm not comparing Carkner/Boulton to Shanny or Holmstrom, just talking about that element. BUT YOUR TOO MUCH INTO YOURSELF TO HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION!
You just did compare them. You said that their jobs are essentially the same, and they aren't.




The whole idea of inserting goons into the lineup is annoying and it's really overstated. It's not as important as some people would have you think. Does Tavares really care about playing against a goon? I think he'd lick his chops if the other team inserted a Carkner into the lineup.

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04-19-2013, 12:25 PM
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we all know that Carkner is not going to win many footraces. but if he wasn't there last night, maybe Phaneuf would have pounded Tavares into a concussion. then where would we be? you can argue all you want, but in the best league in the world, and on the best teams, tough guys are employed. that tells you something...

i personally hate having intimidation and maiming players as part of the game, but it is what it is right now.
it wasn't even a foot race. The Isles had numbers back. All Carkner had to do was Luphul to the outside. instead he moves towards the middle and lets Luphul waltz around him like a ballerina. My wheelchair bound great-aunt could have outskated him on that play.

simple fact- if you're gonna be a D-man you have to be able to skate and skate good. It's even more important for a D-man than a forward

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04-19-2013, 02:51 PM
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BS. After that fight they played like a different team. Brad Boyes and Capuano even butch along with others who were interviewed after the game said those fights changes the momentum of the game.
I know we all love to make fun of Butch but the guy has played the game before and knows the importance of toughness. I'll take guys opinions like Butches,Cappy,Boyes and the players WHO ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME over any of you arm chair coach opinions any day.
The fights happened almost 8 minutes into the game.

At that time the Islanders were out-shooting Toronto 7-2.

The two Toronto shots were courtesy of Matt Carkner getting beat twice, once for a goal and once forcing him to take a penalty which led to the second goal.

The play was in Toronto's end of the ice for most of those first 8 minutes or the leafs were chasing the puck in the neutral zone, unable to to slow down the Islanders attacking zone entries.

What turned the momentum was not the fights, the Islanders maintained their pressure and discovered that Reimer has a weak blocker side, and they exposed it pretty bad from there on out. Reimer made about 4 highlight reel saves before the goons tried to earn their paycheck.

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it wasn't even a foot race. The Isles had numbers back. All Carkner had to do was Luphul to the outside. instead he moves towards the middle and lets Luphul waltz around him like a ballerina. My wheelchair bound great-aunt could have outskated him on that play.

simple fact- if you're gonna be a D-man you have to be able to skate and skate good. It's even more important for a D-man than a forward
Yes, speed helps, you are severely hampered by slow footspeed at the NHL level today, no matter what your position or role is on the team is. It can be overcome if you are a heady player that has proper gaps and positioning. Carkner shows no evidence of this either and the Lupul goal is exhibit A. There are countless other examples.

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I'm not comparing Carkner/Boulton to Shanny or Holmstrom, just talking about that element. BUT YOUR TOO MUCH INTO YOURSELF TO HAVE A REAL CONVERSATION!
I can have a real conversation, I just explained to you why I feel my opinion is correct, I even used facts. All I got in response from you to my question as to why you think disliking wastes of space like Carkner and Boulton = Me thinking the games is strictly skating and scoring. It's a mighty leap you made and I'm waiting for further details. All I have gotten from you so far is that I 'Have No Clue' and am 'Too much into myself'. Neither are convincing arguments.


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