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Best dmen of the 1950s

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04-11-2013, 08:17 PM
  #1
Kloparren
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Best dmen of the 1950s

Points were not as high for dmen back then back then so can't be used as much of a criteria and I get bored with the usual talk of the same players so why not the best dmen of the 1950s (or a ranking of #2 - 37 after Doug Harvey). Here's a list of guys who played a significant amount of games in the 50s. Obviously the first 20 were all great dmen (dunno much about Jim Morrison or Bob Armstrong though). I'd also say that Talbot, Pilote, Reise, Vasko, Fontinato, and Hillman were significant in terms of the ones from 21-37.

Side question: Who was the worst dman of this group?

Number beside them denotes number of games played in the 50s.

Doug Harvey 742
Fern Flaman 707
Bill Gadsby 702
Tom Johnson 681
Red Kelly 677
Allan Stanley 641
Marcel Pronovost 639
Gus Mortson 619
Jimmy Thomson 603
Jim Morrison 553
Harry Howell 546
Jack Evans 542
Warren Godfrey 533
Dollard St. Laurent 521
Tim Horton 506
Leo Boivin 492
Bob Armstrong 479
Bob Goldham 473
Bill Quackenbush 461
Butch Bouchard 415
Hal Laycoe 391
Lee Fogolin 384
Lou Fontinato 365
Benny Woit 334
Al Dewsbury 324
Leo Reise 323
Jean-Guy Talbot 321
Pierre Pilote 300
Frank Martin 282
Bob Turner 279
Al Arbour 276
Marc Reaume 276
Bud MacPherson 256
Moose Vasko 255
Hugh Bolton 235
Larry Cahan 191
Larry Hillman 196


Last edited by Kloparren: 04-11-2013 at 08:54 PM.
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04-11-2013, 11:26 PM
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Hardyvan123
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Not that it matters a whole lot but are you using 50-59 or 51-60?

Your numbers for GP indicate that you have 1 extra year, 11 instead of 10.

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04-11-2013, 11:37 PM
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Depending on how you consider Kelly playing as a forward alter in the decade, there is a case for Kelly being #1 then Harvey and then quite a gap. If looking strictly only as dmen, ie not including what Kelly did as a forward then it's ballpark,

Harvey


Kelly (on a 51-60 decade, if it's 50-59 then move Kelly up 1 line)


Gadsby
Johnson
Pronovost.... (on a 51-60 decade)

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04-12-2013, 11:23 AM
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Hard to answer since any of these players that I might have seen were at the end of their careers. Certainly a lot of respected names on there that I know from reading, seeing old film clips or playing board games. Howell and Cahan get bonus points for being Seals, as well as Tex Evans for being a Seals coach!

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04-13-2013, 11:44 AM
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DEFSeasons"HHOF Monitor" PTS
Doug "Dallying Doug" Harvey102583.90
Leonard "Red" Kelly 102036.00
Bill "Gads" Gadsby101037.95
Tom "Bow Tie" Johnson10944.85
Marcel Pronovost10631.50
Fernie "The Bull" Flaman10576.10
Dollard "Dolly" St. Laurent10510.95
Allan "Snowshoes" Stanley10493.85
James R. "Jeems" Thomson8468.30
Bob "Golden Boy" Goldham 6413.20
Butch "The Big Beekeeper" Bouchard 6411.25
Jean Guy Talbot6402.60
Bob Turner 5388.00
Bill "Quack" Quackenbush 6323.20
Gus "Old Hardrock" Mortson9292.70
Benny Woit7282.25
Tim "Superman" Horton9276.55
James "Bud" Macpherson6224.40
Leo "Snake Hips" Boivin9224.30
Bob "Beau" Armstrong10218.50
Al "Junior" Langlois3207.90
Leo Jr. Reise 4201.60
Warren "Rocky" Godfrey8201.30
Jim "Moe" Morrison9196.25
Harry "Harry The Horse" Howell8193.60
Larry "Morley" Hillman6188.40
Jack "The Quiet Man" Evans9161.40
Hal Laycoe6152.95
Carl "Skitz" Brewer3149.40
Pierre "The Bantam Bouncer" Pilote5147.30
Doug "Diesel" Mohns3140.85
Hy "The Blueline Blaster" Buller3137.10
Bob "Boomer" Baun4123.50
Al "Radar" Arbour6118.90
Marc Reaume6117.50
Frank "Shane" Martin6114.40
Louie "The Leaper" Fontinato6109.70
Al "Dewsy" Dewsbury6100.05

* - 1950-60

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04-13-2013, 12:39 PM
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Well Harvey first and foremost, followed by Kelly. Then everyone else.

I wouldn't say he was the worst because he was a solid stay at home d-man but Tom Johnson was highly overrated, the star power that was the Habs of that era rubbed off on him, he IMHO is among the short list of least deserving members of the Hall of Fame.

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04-13-2013, 01:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yave1964 View Post
Well Harvey first and foremost, followed by Kelly. Then everyone else.

I wouldn't say he was the worst because he was a solid stay at home d-man but Tom Johnson was highly overrated, the star power that was the Habs of that era rubbed off on him, he IMHO is among the short list of least deserving members of the Hall of Fame.
Was he the Habs #2 D-Man? What kind of ice time did he get behind Harvey? Who was Harvey's D-mate? What about the early 60's?

Interested in Johnson. Anyone have more info?

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04-13-2013, 05:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens Rule View Post
Was he the Habs #2 D-Man? What kind of ice time did he get behind Harvey? Who was Harvey's D-mate? What about the early 60's?

Interested in Johnson. Anyone have more info?
Johnson played for the Canadiens during the 50s and part of the 60s, he was with the team when they won five consecutive championships. A skilled blueliner who was a finesse player, he mostly played even strength and short handed, as Harvey ran the power play as well as any man alive back then.

He was 2nd team nhl all star once, and first team nhl all star once as well, that was the year Harvey was hurt and Johnson played his roll, he won the Norris that year as well.

Johnson was not a slouch, his numbers don't jump off the page but most d-men from that era don't, and he was good enough to win six cups with the team. That is why I feel he is in the Hall of Fame.

IMHO he is in the hall for the same reason Phil Rizzuto is in the Baseball hall. He stuck around forever, won a lot of championships, stayed in the game after his playing career and people generally liked him. Nothing about his numbers suggest the hall of fame, in hockeyreference.com they list his top five comps as:

Earl Seibert- 1930s hall of fame d-man
Jean Guy Talbot, contemporary, decent blue liner played forever
Alexei Zhitnik
Jyrki Lumme
Dave Ellett

Most of us are young enough to remember the careers of Zhitnik, Lumme and Ellett, nice players but not hall of famers in the best day of their career. I really feel that in the same way that Rizzuto rode in on the coattails of DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra and Ford, Johnson road in on the coattails of Richard, Boom Boom, Plante and Harvey, the real hall of famers from the team.

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04-13-2013, 07:36 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Tom Johnson

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Originally Posted by yave1964 View Post
Johnson played for the Canadiens during the 50s and part of the 60s, he was with the team when they won five consecutive championships. A skilled blueliner who was a finesse player, he mostly played even strength and short handed, as Harvey ran the power play as well as any man alive back then.

He was 2nd team nhl all star once, and first team nhl all star once as well, that was the year Harvey was hurt and Johnson played his roll, he won the Norris that year as well.

Johnson was not a slouch, his numbers don't jump off the page but most d-men from that era don't, and he was good enough to win six cups with the team. That is why I feel he is in the Hall of Fame.

IMHO he is in the hall for the same reason Phil Rizzuto
is in the Baseball hall. He stuck around forever, won a lot of championships, stayed in the game after his playing career and people generally liked him. Nothing about his numbers suggest the hall of fame, in hockeyreference.com they list his top five comps as:

Earl Seibert- 1930s hall of fame d-man
Jean Guy Talbot, contemporary, decent blue liner played forever
Alexei Zhitnik
Jyrki Lumme
Dave Ellett

Most of us are young enough to remember the careers of Zhitnik, Lumme and Ellett, nice players but not hall of famers in the best day of their career. I really feel that in the same way that Rizzuto rode in on the coattails of DiMaggio, Mantle, Berra and Ford, Johnson road in on the coattails of Richard, Boom Boom, Plante and Harvey, the real hall of famers from the team.
Tom Johnson was a solid workman like, physical defenseman, a gamer home and away. Ideal second defenseman who could and did step-up to #1 - see 1958-59 when Harvey was injured and 1961-62 after Harvey was traded. Similar to Allan Stanley though a better skater.

Usually partnered with Jean Guy Talbot - check the drop in Talbot's performance after Johnson was injured - eye, and was moved to Boston.

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04-13-2013, 08:44 PM
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What about Jimmy Roberts? He didn't end up in the HOF like Johnson though he was a part of cup teams repeatedly.

Won 5 cups with Mtl and was a regular who played 1006 games between 63-78, finished first in defensive point shares in 65/66 and 6th in 69/70. He's not a HOFer but I wonder how good he must've been in order to maintain his spot on that team though he's now a fairly obscure hockey name. He's listed as both fwd/dman so I dunno how much of each position he played, I think he was primarily a dman.

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04-13-2013, 09:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
What about Jimmy Roberts? He didn't end up in the HOF like Johnson though he was a part of cup teams repeatedly.

Won 5 cups with Mtl and was a regular who played 1006 games between 63-78, finished first in defensive point shares in 65/66 and 6th in 69/70. He's not a HOFer but I wonder how good he must've been in order to maintain his spot on that team though he's now a fairly obscure hockey name. He's listed as both fwd/dman so I dunno how much of each position he played, I think he was primarily a dman.
Roberts did play defense when he came up, moved to forward on a checking line with the Canadiens because of defensive depth and because he had the ability to play about anywhere except goal. He joined the Expansion Blues under Scotty Bowman and a hidden star was born, he played forward when a spark was needed, played defense against other teams top lines to shadow their top forwards. When Bowman was let go and got his dream job with the Canadiens he brought Jimmy Roberts with him. He along with Doug Jarvis and Bob Gainey formed the most famous checking line in Hockey, they dominated other teams top lines for five years.
Roberts followed Bowman to the Sabres as an assistant coach, along with Roger Neilson, Neilson and Roberts took turns coaching the team whenever Bowman lost interest, Roberts also went on to coach the Whalers. He also was the interim coach with the Blues after Mike Keenan left.

Roberts was a tweener, we still have a few around nowadays but not as many as before.
Roberts was a hell of a player but not a hofer on his best day. If you consider him a defensemen his numbers would have been fine 15 years previously, but Orr, Potvin Robinson and a new wave of offensive defensemen dominated the stat line and pushed guys like him to the shadows. As a fourth line checking forward, his thunder was stolen by Gainey. Roberts seemed to like to live in the shadows, let others have the spotlight, both as a player and coach. He was the perfect understudy for Bowman, a man seemingly without ego playing and then coaching under a man who had one of the largest egos in the game. Not a hall of famer but a fun person in the game.

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04-14-2013, 06:59 AM
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Jim Roberts

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Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
What about Jimmy Roberts? He didn't end up in the HOF like Johnson though he was a part of cup teams repeatedly.

Won 5 cups with Mtl and was a regular who played 1006 games between 63-78, finished first in defensive point shares in 65/66 and 6th in 69/70. He's not a HOFer but I wonder how good he must've been in order to maintain his spot on that team though he's now a fairly obscure hockey name. He's listed as both fwd/dman so I dunno how much of each position he played, I think he was primarily a dman.
O6 with the Canadiens 5th/6th defenseman, PK forward, 4th RW in a pinch behind Bobby Rousseau, Claude Provost, Claude Larose,Yvan Cournoyer. Value was that he was one roster spot but could play four positions except forward.

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04-27-2013, 01:25 PM
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if you what to make a discussion about it Doug Harvey beats out Bobby Orr for the number one spot for dman

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04-27-2013, 01:41 PM
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if you what to make a discussion about it Doug Harvey beats out Bobby Orr for the number one spot for dman
For the 50's sure since Bobby's play at ages 2-12 wouldn't hold up.

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04-27-2013, 01:45 PM
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good point i was just reading the firstreply about orr. harvey fist then kelly. and i woul still say harvey ovr orr as the better dman ever

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04-27-2013, 02:37 PM
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Hardyvan123
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good point i was just reading the firstreply about orr. harvey fist then kelly. and i woul still say harvey ovr orr as the better dman ever
Even for all time Harvey doesn't get his first post season all star nod until he is 27 and only competes h2h with Kelly for 6 seasons at most and the last 2 of those 6 some voters were viewing Kelly not exclusively as a Dman it seems.

52 All star voting
Red Kelly, Det 90 (18-0-0)
Doug Harvey, Mtl 71 (12-3-1)
Hy Buller, NYR 47 (1-13-3)
Jim Thomson, Tor 38 (2-6-10)

53 All Star voting
Red Kelly, Det 90 (18-0-0)
Doug Harvey, Mtl 56 (8-5-1)
Bill Quackenbush, Bos 44 (4-7-3)
Bill Gadsby, Chi 30 (3-2-9)

54 Norris voting
1. Red Kelly, Det 162 (76-86)
2. Doug Harvey, Mtl 57 (22-35)
3. Bill Gadsby, Chi 38 (28-10)
4. Tim Horton, Tor 26
5. Bob Goldham, Det 18

55 Norris voting
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 147 (72-75) tied for 5th in Hart with 18
2. Red Kelly, Det 95 (40-55) 8th in Hart with 15
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 32 (17-15)
4. Bob Goldham, Det 16 (7-9)
5. Hugh Bolton, Tor 9 (8-1)
6. Tim Horton, Tor

56 Norris voting
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 156 (78-78) 5th in Hart voting with 11
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 59 (16-43)
3. Red Kelly, Det 44 (17-27) 4th in Hart voting with 25
4. Tom Johnson, Mtl 21 (14-7)
5. Fern Flaman, Bos 11 (5-6)
6. Harry Howell, NYR 8

57 Norris voting
1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 159 (83-76)
2. Red Kelly, Det 42 (20-22)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 35 (16-19)
4. Bill Gadsby, NYR 32 (14-18)
5. Doug Mohns, Bos 23 (17-6)

Note in 56 Kelly received an all star vote at LW so by 56-57 it's quite conceivable that voters no longer looked at Kelly as exclusively as a Dman.

58 Norris voting

1. Doug Harvey, Mtl 153 (75-78)
2. Bill Gadsby, NYR 119 (55-64)
3. Fern Flaman, Bos 17 (13-4)
4. Ron Stewart, Tor 13 (10-3)
5. Marcel Pronovost, Det 7 (3-4)
T6. Red Kelly, Det 3

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04-27-2013, 02:41 PM
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he still played d mon ami just more as a foward in time.

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04-27-2013, 03:44 PM
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he still played d mon ami just more as a foward in time.
?, what are you trying to say here?

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