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Landeskog vs Zibanejad

View Poll Results: Landeskog vs Zibanejad
Landeskog 125 84.46%
Zibanejad 19 12.84%
Even 4 2.70%
Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-21-2013, 02:00 PM
  #51
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Originally Posted by SilfverFoppaBerg View Post
PS: People saying Landos D and Offensive potential will always be better then Zibbys are wrong, you cannot predict this. Now yes, future? You have no crystal balls.
Well, Landeskrog at age 18 did something that maybe a couple dozen forwards in the NHL have done in the last 10 years. Dominated elite opposition.

Even if Zibanejad's offense is better than Landeskrog's, he won't get a chance to show it as often because Landeskrog spends a ton of time in the offensive end of the ice.

Landeskrog is miles ahead of Zibanejad on defense, and whether the offense is close or not doesn't matter as much.

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04-21-2013, 02:17 PM
  #52
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My bad of the callout for OP's, Sens fans. Figured with the number of them it was a safe bet I wasn't reaching. And with that said, seems rather silly for other team's fans to keep being so enamored with your players. I'll leave it at that though.

Point still stands about the debate though, it is incredibly shortsighted to say that Zibanejad is having a season even on par with Landeskog's prior year. They are actually much closer this season, despite Landeskog's drop in play for various reasons.

If Duchene has taught Avs fans anything, it's that being down on a player for one tough year is misguided and we need to remember to analyze the player better before critically casting them aside has never being able to overcome their hurdles as youngsters. Duchy, until this year, had us worried he would never be able to overcome his mental block and would always be a perimeter player that tried to dance around the opposition rather than command the play using his physical tools and his linemates.

Landeskog last year showed us a complete game that is rarely found in the NHL, let alone in an 18 year old rookie. One tough year isn't going to deter that from happening, so unless he pulls a Myers' and continues regressing we'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the half-season going on right now.

What's wrong if you're curious? Well, aside from the obvious, he hasn't been shooting as often, hasn't been hitting as often and his timing with O'Reilly has looked off. His time spent in Sweden seems to have hurt (he was used as a skill player, not a powerforward) and the captaincy appears to be weighing heavily on him given our terrible season.

One would hope with a new coach and some renewed confidence over the offseason he can recollect himself and recognize that he plays best when he simplifies his game and isn't trying to snipe so much as power his way to the net and grinding people off the puck.

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Old
04-21-2013, 02:18 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by RedWingzz View Post
Zibanejad is better offensively? How so? Landeskog has 67 career points in 114 games, points per game average of 0.59. Zibanejad has 21 in 46 games, ppg of 0.45. So how is Zibanejad better offensively again?
Well regardless of what you think, evaluating offensive ability based on a number that accounts for 0.5-1.5 seasons at the ages of 19-20 isn't really a good way to go about things.

Learn how to evaluate offensive talent and upside. Anyone can read numbers, and they are often proven wrong by people that know how to see talent.

Again, I haven't even seen Landeskog play this year. I have no vote.

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04-21-2013, 02:18 PM
  #54
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Honestly I don't think one is going to be that much better than the other. Landeskog is a little more proven but only slightly. I like them both.

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04-21-2013, 02:21 PM
  #55
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Zibanejad is more skilled offensively and might have a slightly better head for the game offensively (might) but Landeskog is better defensively and provides more of a presence. I am fairly confident both will be 65+ point guys, so I'd have to give the edge to Landeskog but it really is close. Big factor for me is that Zibanejad is a center, and thats what makes it so close IMO.

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04-21-2013, 02:23 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by eklunds source View Post
Well, Landeskrog at age 18 did something that maybe a couple dozen forwards in the NHL have done in the last 10 years. Dominated elite opposition.

Even if Zibanejad's offense is better than Landeskrog's, he won't get a chance to show it as often because Landeskrog spends a ton of time in the offensive end of the ice.

Landeskrog is miles ahead of Zibanejad on defense, and whether the offense is close or not doesn't matter as much.
To be fair, Zibanejad is also spending a ton of time in the offensive end. A lot of people around here aren't fans of Corsi, but it is a fairly good proxy for possession time. Landeskog's Corsi for ratio last year was 55.7(this year its 48.8), Zibanejad's is 55.0. Both were well above their team average.

Since Zibanejad was united on a line with Conacher and Silfverberg, his Corsi for has been through the roof at >65% and Zibanejad has looked like the driving force (I know 29 mins is a small sample though).

Again, I'm not going to argue Zibanejad is better than Landeskog, but these 2 are far closer imo than people are admitting.

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04-21-2013, 02:31 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
My bad of the callout for OP's, Sens fans. Figured with the number of them it was a safe bet I wasn't reaching. And with that said, seems rather silly for other team's fans to keep being so enamored with your players. I'll leave it at that though.

Point still stands about the debate though, it is incredibly shortsighted to say that Zibanejad is having a season even on par with Landeskog's prior year. They are actually much closer this season, despite Landeskog's drop in play for various reasons.

If Duchene has taught Avs fans anything, it's that being down on a player for one tough year is misguided and we need to remember to analyze the player better before critically casting them aside has never being able to overcome their hurdles as youngsters. Duchy, until this year, had us worried he would never be able to overcome his mental block and would always be a perimeter player that tried to dance around the opposition rather than command the play using his physical tools and his linemates.

Landeskog last year showed us a complete game that is rarely found in the NHL, let alone in an 18 year old rookie. One tough year isn't going to deter that from happening, so unless he pulls a Myers' and continues regressing we'll give him the benefit of the doubt for the half-season going on right now.

What's wrong if you're curious? Well, aside from the obvious, he hasn't been shooting as often, hasn't been hitting as often and his timing with O'Reilly has looked off. His time spent in Sweden seems to have hurt (he was used as a skill player, not a powerforward) and the captaincy appears to be weighing heavily on him given our terrible season.

One would hope with a new coach and some renewed confidence over the offseason he can recollect himself and recognize that he plays best when he simplifies his game and isn't trying to snipe so much as power his way to the net and grinding people off the puck.
Zibanejad this year is obviously not on par with Landeskog last year, but I don't think that really means much. Landeskog was much more ready for the NHL than Zibanejad was at the start of this season, both physically and positionally (in terms of adjusting to NHL ice). He had 3 pts in his first 12 games but 17 in his past 26. That's a 54 pt pace and I honestly think he can bring that next year assuming he is provided with the opportunity that he so clearly deserves. I see both Zib and Lando as guys who can win a Conn Smythe down the road. In fact, I think of all the star potential players from their draft class, those are the two guys who have the most similar trajectory and ability. Landeskog has the physical tools and maturity to be a star earlier, but I definitely don't think his upside is any higher. In fact, I don't see much discrepancy between almost any of the guys drafted top 10 that year. Tons of skilled players who will be impact guys in one way or the other. Only Strome, Scheifele and Couturier I could see maybe not being top 90 guys in the league.

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04-21-2013, 02:38 PM
  #58
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Landeskog AINEC.

Only people who will say Zibby are Sens fans, sorry.

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04-21-2013, 02:43 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Minister of Offence View Post
Well regardless of what you think, evaluating offensive ability based on a number that accounts for 0.5-1.5 seasons at the ages of 19-20 isn't really a good way to go about things.

Learn how to evaluate offensive talent and upside. Anyone can read numbers, and they are often proven wrong by people that know how to see talent.

Again, I haven't even seen Landeskog play this year. I have no vote.

Alright, well I assume you consider yourself as "one who knows how to see talent". So enlighten me, on "what you see" in Zibanejad's offensive game that shows he's better offensively than Landeskog. He had 11 points in the AHL in 23 games. That sure looks like an offensive dynamo to me.

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04-21-2013, 02:49 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by The OttoMan Lion View Post
Zibanejad this year is obviously not on par with Landeskog last year, but I don't think that really means much. Landeskog was much more ready for the NHL than Zibanejad was at the start of this season, both physically and positionally (in terms of adjusting to NHL ice). He had 3 pts in his first 12 games but 17 in his past 26. That's a 54 pt pace and I honestly think he can bring that next year assuming he is provided with the opportunity that he so clearly deserves. I see both Zib and Lando as guys who can win a Conn Smythe down the road. In fact, I think of all the star potential players from their draft class, those are the two guys who have the most similar trajectory and ability. Landeskog has the physical tools and maturity to be a star earlier, but I definitely don't think his upside is any higher. In fact, I don't see much discrepancy between almost any of the guys drafted top 10 that year. Tons of skilled players who will be impact guys in one way or the other. Only Strome, Scheifele and Couturier I could see maybe not being top 90 guys in the league.
To play devil's advocate, if Zibanejad's half-season can be halved and projected...

Landeskog's final 30 games of the season (February-April) put him at a 70 point pace over the course of the season. A 30g/38a season to be 'exact'.

Just trying to give the full picture here. Landeskog didn't just do well all season, he hit lightning in a bottle as he started to figure out how to combine his game with the NHL style. It was truly impressive and I hope to see him do it again next season because he has such an amazing understanding of the game.

My personal opinion is that Zibanejad ends up much like Ryan O'Reilly in a few years, a 65 point center that puts up 20-25 goals and 30-40 assists a season with strong 2-way abilities. He won't really be the best at any one thing he does (although O'Reilly may prove himself to be a Selke contender in a few more years if this miserable team ever becomes any good) but overall makes his team that much better.

But I'm not sure you'll find many Avs fans that feel Landeskog will end up worse than O'Reilly, nor do I expect to find many people in general feel Zibanejad will surpass O'Reilly. They may all be 'close' but in a poll where one is asked who is better, the answer in this situation looks to be clearly Landeskog now and for the time being. With young players there is obviously no absolute though, who knows what happens to either of them three years from now when their draft class finally hits the five year benchmark for evaluation.

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04-21-2013, 03:00 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
To play devil's advocate, if Zibanejad's half-season can be halved and projected...

Landeskog's final 30 games of the season (February-April) put him at a 70 point pace over the course of the season. A 30g/38a season to be 'exact'.

Just trying to give the full picture here. Landeskog didn't just do well all season, he hit lightning in a bottle as he started to figure out how to combine his game with the NHL style. It was truly impressive and I hope to see him do it again next season because he has such an amazing understanding of the game.

My personal opinion is that Zibanejad ends up much like Ryan O'Reilly in a few years, a 65 point center that puts up 20-25 goals and 30-40 assists a season with strong 2-way abilities. He won't really be the best at any one thing he does (although O'Reilly may prove himself to be a Selke contender in a few more years if this miserable team ever becomes any good) but overall makes his team that much better.

But I'm not sure you'll find many Avs fans that feel Landeskog will end up worse than O'Reilly, nor do I expect to find many people in general feel Zibanejad will surpass O'Reilly. They may all be 'close' but in a poll where one is asked who is better, the answer in this situation looks to be clearly Landeskog now and for the time being. With young players there is obviously no absolute though, who knows what happens to either of them three years from now when their draft class finally hits the five year benchmark for evaluation.
My division of Zibbys season was to show him adjusting to NHL ice and speed. He didn't even do as well in the AHL as he has here. Also, recovering from concussion symptoms for the first time, really, after about a year of issues. And as I said, Landeskog showed clear superstar ability last year. He showed he could be an 80, maybe 85 point guy who dominates all facets of the game. All I'm saying is, with Zibanejads growth and development, I think he can be around that level too. This coming from a guy who didn't believe he had upside beyond maybe 60-65 points until just a month or two ago.

I do agree, the answer right now is clearly Landeskog.. but I don't think that means much. Hell, I think in 10 years Cowen could be more impactful than Karlsson. The most important thing for star players is work ethic, and that's something that both Zibanejad and Landeskog have in spades. As for Ziba vs OReilly, I think Zibanejad is a much more skilled offensive player, in terms of just tools. Doesn't think the game on quite his level, not nearly as good defensively, but I think he has all the abilities to be a better player than ROR. ROR is a lock to be a great #2C, I think Zibanejad has the ability to make Spezza expendable. He really has blown me away and that doesnt happen regularly.

I'm enjoying this back and forth though, you raise very good points and there's nothing you've said that I disagree with. I apologize for any incoherence on my part, I'm at the raw end of an all nighter.

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04-21-2013, 03:57 PM
  #62
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But the moneymaker, the offense, goes to zibby.
Absolutely not yet clear. Landy has a good shot, is great on the puck, great at forcing turnovers which lead to more high percentage transition scoring chances, and has been working on setting up his linemates when he hasn't been banged up this year. There's nothing that keeps Landy from becoming a PPG player, which is about where I put Zibby's likely ceiling as well.

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04-21-2013, 05:16 PM
  #63
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Zibanejad has been a dominating presence for awhile now. People are quick to discount him, but watching him play - it's hard to find a more noticeable player on the ice with his size, speed and overall game. He's unquestionably the player driving the offense on his line, and I would argue to an extent, is the key offensive driving force to our offense. His effect on the ice is very similar to Landeskog, but more offensive-oriented for sure. Zibanejad wins most of his battles and creates plays, but Landeskog does a ton of little things and brings that defensive awareness and intangibles that should make him an elite winger. The fact that Mika is a centerman could mean he's the more important player on the ice, but Landeskog has the leadership qualities off the ice that make him so valuable to his team.

It's quite close. Landeskog is more proven and is more well-known, but I'd argue Zibanejad has more potential - kid has the same skills package as Hossa, and a good head on his shoulders too. Hard to find a player with his size, speed, shot, skill combination. Think these two young Swedes are a lot closer in potential and value than Zibanejad and Couturier. Look forward to see how this plays out years to come.

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04-21-2013, 05:38 PM
  #64
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Landeskog.

Zibanejad is going to be solid, but really, only a sens fan would pick him over Landeskog. I think the poll results confirm this.

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04-21-2013, 05:44 PM
  #65
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Landeskog.

Zibanejad is going to be solid, but really, only a sens fan would pick him over Landeskog. I think the poll results confirm this.
Sort of to be expected when one guy won the Calder last year and the other guy has under half a season under his belt. Not saying it's right or wrong, but it's closer than being generally unanimous.

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04-21-2013, 05:53 PM
  #66
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Originally Posted by RedWingzz View Post
Zibanejad is better offensively? How so? Landeskog has 67 career points in 114 games, points per game average of 0.59. Zibanejad has 21 in 46 games, ppg of 0.45. So how is Zibanejad better offensively again?
Sorry, I don't read stat lines much to make my arguments so I can't relate. This year zibby has shown to create more offensively and buzzes around the net more. I'm not saying landeskog can't put the pick in the net. Try watching them play instead of searching NHL.com to make you're arguments.

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04-21-2013, 06:04 PM
  #67
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Absolutely not yet clear. Landy has a good shot, is great on the puck, great at forcing turnovers which lead to more high percentage transition scoring chances, and has been working on setting up his linemates when he hasn't been banged up this year. There's nothing that keeps Landy from becoming a PPG player, which is about where I put Zibby's likely ceiling as well.
Finally. Someone who doesn't say "well NHL.com statline shows..." to start their argument. It's refreshing. I definitely think landeskog has a knack for finding the back of the net. I just think zibanejads speed will create more. Speed kills. Also zibanejads aggressiveness in the offensive zone is nuts. Other teams always get hemmed in their zone when the rookie line is on and that's due to zibanejads pressure. People have to remember landeskog had/has an early advantage as he's played in North America before turning pro. People seem to be discrediting that factor a lot.

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04-21-2013, 06:31 PM
  #68
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Zibby's having a better season...

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04-21-2013, 06:47 PM
  #69
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Zibby "buzzes" way more so it's not really an argument. I know it's not a documentated stat yet, but I feel he's top 10 for buzzing.

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04-21-2013, 06:54 PM
  #70
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Originally Posted by RedWingzz View Post
Zibanejad is better offensively? How so? Landeskog has 67 career points in 114 games, points per game average of 0.59. Zibanejad has 21 in 46 games, ppg of 0.45. So how is Zibanejad better offensively again?
Well for starters Mika plays 13:27 per game versus 19:25 per game.

Mika plays 1:51 on the PP versus 2:35 on the PP for Landeskog.

Mika's Points per 60 minutes at ES is 2.26 versus 1.16 for Landeskog at even strength. That's about twice as productive as Landeskog.

On the powerplay, 3.44 for Zibanejad versus 0.76 for Landeskog: approximately 4.5 times better than Landeskog.

He's still learning and growing, but I'm telling you - and the numbers support my statement - that he's going to be a great player.

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04-21-2013, 07:07 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by HotPie View Post
Landeskog.

Zibanejad is going to be solid, but really, only a sens fan would pick him over Landeskog. I think the poll results confirm this.
That could be because people don't get enough viewings. If Zibanejad becomes what he appears to be becoming, this is a legitimate conversation.

Again, I have no vote in this.

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04-21-2013, 07:10 PM
  #72
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overwhelmingly lopsided results. Closed.

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