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Old
11-22-2013, 09:40 PM
  #276
Sokil
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Who are those "we" you're talking about? Speak only for yourself, please. You've already proved that you know nothing about Russia at all, so don't try to represent your ignorant opinion as if it's well known fact.
we as in everyone on the board. If you think Russia is a democracy or in any way democratic then you know nothing about Russia. My only recommendation would be to read a book before spouting off, perhaps.

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11-22-2013, 10:15 PM
  #277
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we as in everyone on the board. If you think Russia is a democracy or in any way democratic then you know nothing about Russia. My only recommendation would be to read a book before spouting off, perhaps.
Yes, I know nothing about Russia. Almost four decades that I live here is surely not enough. Of course, I need some book to enlighten myself. And I'm sure that it should be a book that has been written by some ignoramus who's probably never been in Russia, just like you. What a ....

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11-22-2013, 10:26 PM
  #278
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I didn't live with the dinosaurs but I believe the rumors

You know someone's a real winner when they bash education, word papers and book learnin' in the name of street smarts

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11-22-2013, 10:41 PM
  #279
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Originally Posted by Sokil View Post
I didn't live with the dinosaurs but I believe the rumors

You know someone's a real winner when they bash education, word papers and book learnin' in the name of street smarts
If you believe in any ******** that you've read, it's only your problem, not mine.

If you cant even understand two lines of writing text, what good could any amount of books give you? Your words have nothing to do with my post, just like your fantasies about Russia have nothing to do with reality.

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11-22-2013, 10:54 PM
  #280
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Are you afraid the FSB is going to bust through your door and arrest you or something? There's no logical reason anyone would be so cemented in denial as yourself.

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11-22-2013, 11:09 PM
  #281
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Are you afraid the FSB is going to bust through your door and arrest you or something? There's no logical reason anyone would be so cemented in denial as yourself.
What denial? Sorry, but I'll sum things up. You don't know Russian language and therefore cant take information from both sides, unlike me who can read on both languages. You've never been in Russia, again unlike me who is living here. And despite all this you're thinking that knows better about my country than me? Do you understand how incredibly stupid it sounds to any sane man?

FSB? Are you sure that you've read books and not just seen some stupid cold war american b-movie?

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11-23-2013, 12:54 AM
  #282
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Democratic or not, Russians enjoy more personal freedom than Americans, that's one for sure. And even though Sokil's views on Russia may be comically stereotypical, still, it's not a place to discuss this.

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11-23-2013, 04:34 AM
  #283
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so russia not being democratic allows us to flaunt swastika in front of its nose, i see

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11-23-2013, 05:35 AM
  #284
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Democratic or not, Russians enjoy more personal freedom than Americans, that's one for sure.


Sure, until a policeman on a Moscow street asks you to show him your passport. Just so.

Just because USA is a democratic country and any, even small, breaches of privacy are being exposed by citizens or whistle blowers like Snowden do not mean that in other countries where democratic principles are less alive state-wide surveillance does not happen... The only problem is that in quasi-democratic societies people are afraid to be like Edward Snowden, firstly because they fear the punishment (of course that applies to US too) and secondly because they do not value transparency and freedom of speech, as well as democratic principles that much to bother. Can you imagine an FSB officer coming out to society with Russia's state secrets? I can't. Firstly, because of the punishment. Secondly, because it wouldn't be ''manly'' and ''patriotic'' and who cares about small surveillance for country's security and thirdly, because the people's attitude in Russia would be the exact copy of nr.2. The guy would be proclaimed a traitor, working for NATO and other ''conspirators'', not a patriot etc. We hear the same in USA about Snowden of course, but there are also tons of people in US who think quite differently about what he did. I remember Russian society's take on Chechen War to know how something like that would come down if it happened in Russia...

I've been in the USA and seen a whole town coming out to protest cutting of a few trees in the town center. I wonder when I'll see something like that in Latvia or Russia (5 people with signs not a protest make). Then I can surely accuse USA and its society as ''not being free'', ''nanny state'' etc. Perhaps people in Scandinavia can accuse USA of that and point to their countries as an example. We, in Eastern Europe, certainly can't! USA has problems with breaches of privacy but it's a complete democratic society and will sort out its issues.

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11-23-2013, 06:24 AM
  #285
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Sure, until a policeman on a Moscow street asks you to show him your passport. Just so.
He has no right to ask for your passport unless they have an APB for a person who looks like you. If you know your rights, and you indeed met a dirty cop trying to extort you, he will back away as soon as he'll see you are not some chump. So I've been asked to show a passport to a policemen a couple of times, one time when I was taking photos of construction sites in Sochi, I chose to cooperate because I thought it was the right thing to do in the light of all the terrorist threats. I have never had any problems. So what it has to do with personal freedom? Have you ever been detained in Moscow? What's your story?

While Sokil jokes about FSB busting through doors, in USA you actually can't even use google without the fear of FBI breaking your door..

And what do you talk about punishment? Look at Manning. Same thing would have happened with Snowden. No one couldn't have done a thing for him in the US, not a handful of protesters nor the internet supporters. You bringing up a Chechen war, while US killed tens of thousand of Iraqis, Drone strike whoever they want and still keep Guantanamo. And what their democratic society does? No one really cares about it in the US. I don't think that regular people are to blame, but I don't think they are doing something exceptional as well. And what can they do? They have a big brother with a limitless stream of dollars fresh out of the printing machine. It is the most powerful Police state in human history.

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11-23-2013, 07:17 AM
  #286
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Guys, wether or not russia and usa is more democratic has nothing to do with Dinamo Riga. Its not even reletaed to the swastika incident. Can we move away from this offtopic(and hopefuly from the incident as well) and return to some normal discussions?

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11-23-2013, 07:44 AM
  #287
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Wise words, s4!

We won 8th on a trot!

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11-23-2013, 02:34 PM
  #288
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Wise words, s4!

We won 8th on a trot!
Hard to think about hockey right now but the team makes me proud, as well as Latvian people as a whole in those past few days!

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11-26-2013, 11:28 AM
  #289
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KHL fined Dynamo Riga for 1M rubles (30k dollars) for that swastika incident. Isn't a little bit late? I mean it looks like they did it because someone told them to do. Hope this will be the final point for that matter. Hate when politics messes in sport.

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11-26-2013, 11:34 AM
  #290
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http://www.khl.ru/news/2013/11/26/220789.html

1 000 000 rubles fine and the threat of being excluded if they do it again. Freaking told you.

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11-26-2013, 11:52 AM
  #291
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KHL fined Dynamo Riga for 1M rubles (30k dollars) for that swastika incident. Isn't a little bit late? I mean it looks like they did it because someone told them to do. Hope this will be the final point for that matter. Hate when politics messes in sport.
Yeah, there was definitely some outside influence at play here. An independent panel already concluded the obvious, that nothing wrong happened, but some old commie war criminal's grandson flexed his muscle and added this token fine to appease the remaining ignorant idiots in the Motherland.

As someone pointed out elsewhere, Spartak didn't receive a fine or warning for allowing this, so implementing a fine for showcasing a national symbol that only somewhat resembles a swastika is ridiculous:


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11-26-2013, 12:09 PM
  #292
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Yeah, there was definitely some outside influence at play here. An independent panel already concluded the obvious, that nothing wrong happened, but some old commie war criminal's grandson flexed his muscle and added this token fine to appease the remaining ignorant idiots in the Motherland.

As someone pointed out elsewhere, Spartak didn't receive a fine or warning for allowing this, so implementing a fine for showcasing a national symbol that only somewhat resembles a swastika is ridiculous:

Haha, cry some more. History is written by the victors. Nazi symbols are banned worldwide, Soviet are not. If they do not agree they can protest the ruling.

Btw, they found a picture of one Spartak football "fan" or rather an instigator, holding a swastika flag in the stands, on the away game in Yaroslavl. So the next two home games Spartak played without viewers. Now that's a harsh punishment.

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11-26-2013, 12:14 PM
  #293
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Haha, cry some more. History is written by the victors. Nazi symbols are banned worldwide, Soviet are not. If they do not agree they can protest the ruling.
Gotta love you ignorant masochistic Russians, who after all these years still look at the murder and imprisonment of your own people and dozens of millions of others as a "victory".


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11-26-2013, 12:18 PM
  #294
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Yeah, there was definitely some outside influence at play here. An independent panel already concluded the obvious, that nothing wrong happened, but some old commie war criminal's grandson flexed his muscle and added this token fine to appease the remaining ignorant idiots in the Motherland.

As someone pointed out elsewhere, Spartak didn't receive a fine or warning for allowing this, so implementing a fine for showcasing a national symbol that only somewhat resembles a swastika is ridiculous:

Man, you aren't right. Just imagine they showed that "national symbol" on a soccer game vs some Israel team. What would happen then? I bet UEFA or FIFA would act much harsher than KHL. And nobody could blame both organizations for being anti-democratic (ok, British media would perhaps blame FIFA, but they blame FIFA in anything for awhile)

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11-26-2013, 12:20 PM
  #295
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Haha, cry some more. History is written by the victors. Nazi symbols are banned worldwide, Soviet are not. If they do not agree they can protest the ruling.
Well, remarkably they're banned in several former Eastern block countries, including Latvia, so...

KHL put a fine and warned for that in future, so the discussion is over. It's a Russian league = Russian rules. Don't have any reason to argue with that.

This discussion is fruitless, we should better talk sport.

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11-26-2013, 12:22 PM
  #296
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Gotta love you ignorant masochistic Russians, who after all these years still look at the murder and imprisonment of your own people and dozens of millions of others as a "victory".
The victim of the north american education system... Straight to the ignore list.

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11-26-2013, 12:26 PM
  #297
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Well, remarkably they're banned in several former Eastern block countries, including Latvia, so...

KHL put a fine and warned for that in future, so the discussion is over. It's a Russian league = Russian rules. Don't have any reason to argue with that.

This discussion is fruitless, we should better talk sport.
I'm not so sure that this story is over. The KHL is trying to distance itself now, there is gotta be a reason. The thing is this story is gonna stick to Dinamo Riga for quite some time.

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11-26-2013, 12:26 PM
  #298
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Man, you aren't right. Just imagine they showed that "national symbol" on a soccer game vs some Israel team. What would happen then? I bet UEFA or FIFA would act much harsher than KHL. And nobody could blame both organizations for being anti-democratic (ok, British media would perhaps blame FIFA, but they always blame FIFA in anything for awhile)
You have to understand the context in which the national symbol was used. This was a special performance celebrating the country's 95th Anniversary. Who played on the ice afterwards had nothing to do with it. If people held up actual swastikas during a match against Isreal, there are very few Latvian's who wouldn't put an immediate stop to that, as the negative, racist intent would be clear. In this case it was blatantly obvious that the intent was simply to glorify the country and its traditions and nothing else. As we all saw, nothing was made of this incident outside of Russia, where a few antagonists tried to make something out of nothing. Even on the few North American sites that picked up the story, the comments were almost exclusively supportive and understanding of Dinamo Riga.

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I'm not so sure that this story is over. The KHL is trying to distance itself now, there is gotta be a reason. The thing is this story is gonna stick to Dinamo Riga for quite some time.
It's already over. Nothing has stuck. No one cares what happened except a few uneducated folks who are still trying to stir up trouble over nothing. It's completely a non issue in 95% of people's eyes.


Last edited by v-man: 11-26-2013 at 12:41 PM.
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Old
11-26-2013, 12:35 PM
  #299
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I'm not so sure that this story is over. The KHL is trying to distance itself now, there is gotta be a reason. The thing is this story is gonna stick to Dinamo Riga for quite some time.
The thing is that this will also even more anger Latvian people who aren't so thrilled about KHL in the first place. Dinamo Riga should be glad that this year the team's doing so great, otherwise it would be called a ''pointless commie team'' like last year. Well, at least we have also a non-Latvian audience in Latvia (that doesn't care about this sh** much, because they know already well that this is a Latvian symbol). And another good thing that ''commie team'' comments go up when the team is losing, so it's more like sports-hate generated, not political. And also directed mostly at local ex KGB, not Russia...

Can't say that this fine shocks me much as I'm able to understand the historical context and why a team playing in a predominantly Russian league was fined (even though I personally don't see any problem with the use of symbol). But most Latvian sports fans, especially younger generation, don't see it that way.


I don't see far reaching consequences of this though. The warning of ''kicking out of the league'' is always issued when such incidents happen. The fact is this will not happen in future and that's all (unless Savickis turns nationalistic suddenly that won't happen). No wonder Irbe didn't work with Dinamo, this isn't politically even mildly nationalist club- that's why people were even surprised about Savickis remarks regarding this incident and incident itself. Savickis knows who his masters are.

As already shown by Savickis today's comment "We will, of course, explain people why we did it. Every country has its own traditions and symbols and the league cannot know them all. We won't appeal probably. But apparently we haven't been tactful enough, we have to understand that in other countries people treat these symbols differently''.


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11-26-2013, 12:53 PM
  #300
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It's already over. Nothing has stuck. No one cares what happened except a few uneducated folks who are still trying to stir up trouble over nothing. It's completely a non issue in 95% of people's eyes.
Exactly.

And as I said, I'm fine with the fine . It's just KHL again proves itself to be an organisation without an opinion. If you choose a story to back, back it. Not change it because of ''popular demand''. One day there's ''oh, that's fine'', another day it's ''this insulted people, you have to pay fine''... If you see that as something wrong, say ''IT'S WRONG''. Then people will at least know where you stand from day one. That's called having an opinion/backbone.

Otherwise now you have to pay money back to Chelyabinsk Traktor that got a similar fine because of fans calling our team ''fascists'' a few years ago. Couse apparently they were true.

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