HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

Hossa, Heatley, Spezza and Nash......Oh my

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-27-2005, 02:13 PM
  #51
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,398
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
They will have to be careful because if teams lose rights to the young stars that could make more money as UFA's there will also be a lot of players who will make less than their current base also.
When you say "they" have to be careful, you're talking about the agents.

I don't see why the agents care if there certain players will make less than their base salaries. They're just salivating on the thought of one of their top young clients (like a Thornton or Nash) becomming a UFA and them getting a big payday.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Take a player like Aki Berg as an example even though I don't know for sure if this affects him. He is a useful player but at $1.4 million a year now and then being thrown into a mix with a whole bunch of other free agent defencemen he has a very good chance of making far less than that on the open market.
I don't think players would have to worry about getting short changed. Sure some would be forced to take a pay cut, but just as many would benefit with a pay increase. It would all even out in the end.

Also when you say that Berg would be on the market with "a whole bunch of other free agent defencemen" you also have to take into account that there'd be some teams who would need to fill three or four spots in their top six.

So while the supply would be much higher than usual, the demand would be as well.

Leaf Army is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 03:08 PM
  #52
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Army
When you say "they" have to be careful, you're talking about the agents.

I don't see why the agents care if there certain players will make less than their base salaries. They're just salivating on the thought of one of their top young clients (like a Thornton or Nash) becomming a UFA and them getting a big payday.
That could very well be true, maybe Barry doesn't have any Aki Bergs in his stable of clients and couldn't care less. Or does and feels it is better to throw them under the bus in order to make the big bucks
Quote:
I don't think players would have to worry about getting short changed. Sure some would be forced to take a pay cut, but just as many would benefit with a pay increase. It would all even out in the end.

Also when you say that Berg would be on the market with "a whole bunch of other free agent defencemen" you also have to take into account that there'd be some teams who would need to fill three or four spots in their top six.

So while the supply would be much higher than usual, the demand would be as well.
In a cap world if those elite players become free agents then they will absorb a large portion of the money leaving not much for the rest to fight over.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 03:38 PM
  #53
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Right, but does the NHL want stars from medium and small markets taking this opportunity and bolting to the big teams? Many of these places need to sell tickets even more now because of the lockout.

Does Bettman really want Nash to leave the Blue Jackets right now? I doubt it.
That's exactly the point Pep ..

Bettman sure as hell does not want this to happen ... but that is why it gives the NHLPA leverage in negotiations ..

The NHL wants to pick and chose which parts on a old CBA it wants to honour and which it wants badly out of ... I see it more as an all or nothing situation ...

All players that have their contracts ending by July 1st,2005 that includes RFA, UFA, Unsigned picks become UFA as a result of the lockout .. This option happens virtually on its own as time passes and the issue is tested in court .. Bettman may have no say if the courts award these players their freedom ..

Or vice versa .. The NHL in order to preserve the rights of RFA and Unsigned Picks will be forced by the NHLPA as part of the CBA negotiations to also extend the soon to be UFA on last years of their deals, making it as if only time passed but no players lost any money from the cancelled season. Players would love Goodenow if he pulled this one off, and using Carter and Nash and Thornton as bait seems like a strong position for the NHLPA..

The Third option is that Goodenow gets his players something very favourable in the the NEW CBA like a higher Cap Floor and Ceiling or lower UFA age or something as a trade off for Bettman and the NHL to make sure RFA like Nash remain in Columbus and Carter finds his way to Philly, while at the same time being able to avoid Paying 1 year less on his bad contracts like Holik and Yashin .. I see this a huge leverage for the NHLPA ..

So far NHLPA has seen a hard Cap and Linkage, NLRB law suits, Replacement player threats and lots of very unfavourable things to them thrown on the table ... All incentives not to sign a NEW CBA so far .. So for Bettman and NHL to also ask for and get this BIG CHIP from the NHLPA that NASH remain in Columbus then something has to give on the Owners part ..

If this CBA negotiation were heavily favouring the NHLPA so far then I could see Goodenow throwing the Carters under the Bus, and the Nash's to remain as RFA rather than UFA to finalize a deal .. but if you are being dragged throw the wringer like the NHLPA is in these talks to date .. I see no reason for Goodenow to concede this issue in fact I am with MAC .. Unleashing hell on the NHL with Owners prize younger talent set free causes just the type of chaos or pressure that suggests to delay talks until June and July 1st have passed in fact and you are holding some real power. Even a hard line owner like Jacobs may step lightly if he knew Joe Thornton was soon to be free if he continues to rant and rave for a $30 Mil Hard Cap with linkage..


Last edited by Mess: 04-27-2005 at 04:10 PM.
Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 03:47 PM
  #54
gretzky99
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 388
vCash: 500
Yup, all the good players well surely come to the leafs.

gretzky99 is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 03:49 PM
  #55
Leaf Army
Registered User
 
Leaf Army's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Leaf Nation
Posts: 8,398
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
Yup, all the good players well surely come to the leafs.
Exactly.

Leaf Army is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 03:49 PM
  #56
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
FEAR. They may now realize that all this new CBA will do is give Toronto more of an advantage due to the intangibles the franchsie offers when all the money is equalled out.

Seriously we can get a million dolalrs from any of the 30 teams; only 5 offer us a contract; what city can offer the most considering equal money? It is killing them!
The idea on Money being equalled out both by Hard Cap spending and Revenue Sharing is no problem to most, but when the discussion turns to evening out the talent of the NHL as a result then suddenly it seems we have struck a nerve.

Mac I am willing to bet you are right that these same teams that Bettman is trying to save at the expense of this CBA are going to be the same ones that are going to be hit the hardest by today's RFA becoming UFA talks .. Nash and Heatley will flee Columbus and Atlanta for the bright lights and big cities, proving that the players themselves don't want to be slaves to these organizations if given a free choice. Further fuelling the debate that they should be folded rather then the NHL moulded to save them ..Which is the position we have taken from day one ..

Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 04:03 PM
  #57
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
In a cap world if those elite players become free agents then they will absorb a large portion of the money leaving not much for the rest to fight over.
That is exactly the biggest reason why people are supporting the NHLPA in that a restrictive Hard Cap has that same effect you keep mentioning from a player point of view, but not only the Aki Berg's but 80 % of all players not Super Stars or on entry level contracts .. and that still holds true with or without Nash and Thornton joining the mix ..

You see it on the Leafs .. Three player Sundin, Belfour and Nolan under contract and you are yelling for grandfathering to happen.Something that both needs to be agreed upon in a CBA and currently not what Bettman wants ... When it ends however, what is the end result to play legally under a Cap almost all players are forced to take significant pay cuts to remain employed by the NHL or they will be replaced with young cheap players by frugal owners or capped out big market teams ..


Last edited by Mess: 04-27-2005 at 04:18 PM.
Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 04:07 PM
  #58
Crossroads*
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
Yup, all the good players well surely come to the leafs.
They certainly don't want to go to the Canucks.

Crossroads* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 04:26 PM
  #59
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,870
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
look out... spezza and nash as leafs

Porn* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 04:56 PM
  #60
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
That is exactly the biggest reason why people are supporting the NHLPA in that a restrictive Hard Cap has that same effect you keep mentioning from a player point of view, but not only the Aki Berg's but 80 % of all players not Super Stars or on entry level contracts .. and that still holds true with or without Nash and Thornton joining the mix ..

You see it on the Leafs .. Three player Sundin, Belfour and Nolan under contract and you are yelling for grandfathering to happen.Something that both needs to be agreed upon in a CBA and currently not what Bettman wants ... When it ends however, what is the end result to play legally under a Cap almost all players are forced to take significant pay cuts to remain employed by the NHL or they will be replaced with young cheap players by frugal owners or capped out big market teams ..
You may think of it as pay cuts but in reality it will be pay refelective of the revenue that the league generates and a player's relative skill level.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:06 PM
  #61
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
I didn't really want to mentiion this but there is a Clause in the OLD CBA that also would make not only the 2003 draft class eligible for UFA (via the courts ) but also the 2004 draft class as well including Ovechkin

Its under

8.6. Reserve List-Exclusive Rights.

http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba/article8.html

Section D & E

Quote:

D) If, on or before June 1 of the calendar year next succeeding the draft, the claiming Club makes a Bona Fide Offer (as defined below) to its claimed player of a contract, the Club shall retain the exclusive right of negotiation for the services of such player up to and including the second June 1 following the date of his selection.


A "Bona Fide Offer" is one which is for a period corresponding to the player's age as required under Section 9.1(b) commencing at the start of the next League Year, offers at least the NHL Minimum Compensation for each year covered by such offer and remains open to the player for at least thirty days after receipt of the offer by the player. A Bona Fide Offer may be conditioned upon acceptance by the player within thirty days and carries no right to salary arbitration.

E ) Except as otherwise provided in this Section, a claimed player unsigned on June 2 next succeeding his draft shall be removed from the Reserve List of the Club that claimed him.
With the NHL in lockout the teams are not able to offer these 2004 draft picks a BONA Fide offer and as such they too may fall into the great lockout abyss ..
So Ovechkin, Malkin, all the rest of the 2004 draft class fall under this Clause in the OLD CBA ..

Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:16 PM
  #62
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
You may think of it as pay cuts but in reality it will be pay refelective of the revenue that the league generates and a player's relative skill level.
Don't tell me ... You need to pass that on to Aki Berg .. he is the player effected by this as you pointed out by Thornton, Nash, Heatley, Kovachuk and Hossa possibly become UFA ..

My Salary is independent of all NHL CBA issues ..

Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:21 PM
  #63
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,870
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
How come you guys can't think logically ??

Contracts are ticking, no one questions that .. .

A) The NHLPA would need the NHL to agree that ALL GUARANTEED CONTRACTS that were signed under the old deal would be extended by the lockout, ...(this would include Hossa and Thornton, Nash as RFA as well etc ) So they remain property of their old team.

The NHL is not likely to agree to that to avoid paying all those former bad contracts another year ..

SO

B) That takes us to today's discussion .. If the NHL does not want to honour those contracts then unsigned drafted player rights and RFA not receiving qualifying offers on time become UFA ( via Court) and all the older players on one year deals become UFA without question

BOTH OF THESE POSITIONS ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSSIVE ...

YOU PICK A or B ?? .. Either or is the discussion

You can only have one or the other .. NOT BOTH .. Unless the NHLPA agree in a new CBA, and trades these bargaining chips (RFA & unsigned picks) for other NHLPA favourable parts in a NEW CBA for them.

Come on now keep up .. this is not so difficult that every little thing needs to be spelled out ..
waste of time bothering with trolls mess

Porn* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:28 PM
  #64
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
waste of time bothering with trolls mess
I agree ...

I have concluded if you want to have a educated conversation on issues of the day you have to do it with your fellow Leaf Fans otherwise apparently the logic of the conversation is far too hard for them to grasp for fans of other teams ..

If they can't leave their BLIND HATRED for the Leafs at the door then apparently all logic is blinded by their own internal rage ..

Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:30 PM
  #65
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,870
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I agree ...

I have concluded if you want to have a educated conversation on issues of the day you have to do it with your fellow Leaf Fans otherwise apparently the logic of the conversation is far too hard for them to grasp for fans of other teams ..

If they can't leave their BLIND HATRED for the Leafs at the door then apparently all logic is blinded by their own internal rage ..
just sens fans... they left their common sens(e) at the door :lol

Porn* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:42 PM
  #66
Roger's Pancreas*
 
Roger's Pancreas*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 13,363
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Roger's Pancreas*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossroads
Have a good chuckle at the Sens playoffs misfortunes? You bet
Oh man, that's hypocritical in every sense.

Roger's Pancreas* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:48 PM
  #67
Porn*
Registered User
 
Porn*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: In your nightmares
Country: Israel
Posts: 33,870
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to Porn*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
Oh man, that's hypocritical in every sense.
not really... leafs have had better playoff success in the past and present.

secondly... go troll elsewhere, this is the leafs board where we can write whatever we wish...

Porn* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 05:50 PM
  #68
Volcanologist
Spark up a Dubas
 
Volcanologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kessel Apocalypse
Country: Germany
Posts: 20,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
Oh man, that's hypocritical in every sense.
Ditto, Flyerfan.

Volcanologist is online now  
Old
04-27-2005, 07:32 PM
  #69
MacDaddy TLC*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Leafin La Vida Loca
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,481
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Porn*
just sens fans... they left their common sens(e) at the door :lol
Just like the Sens players check their heart and guts and soul once they enter the playoffs.

MacDaddy TLC* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 08:13 PM
  #70
gretzky99
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
I agree ...

I have concluded if you want to have a educated conversation on issues of the day you have to do it with your fellow Leaf Fans otherwise apparently the logic of the conversation is far too hard for them to grasp for fans of other teams ..

If they can't leave their BLIND HATRED for the Leafs at the door then apparently all logic is blinded by their own internal rage ..
I was just pointing out that some Leaf fans, specifically The Messenger, always say that high status players well be coming to the Leafs, when in reality they probably won't. I am not a Leaf hater, I am just trying to play the reasonable fan here.

gretzky99 is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 08:18 PM
  #71
Volcanologist
Spark up a Dubas
 
Volcanologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Kessel Apocalypse
Country: Germany
Posts: 20,466
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
I was just pointing out that some Leaf fans, specifically The Messenger, always say that high status players well be coming to the Leafs, when in reality they probably won't.
No, they say that high status players COULD be coming to the Leafs.

Volcanologist is online now  
Old
04-27-2005, 08:25 PM
  #72
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 59,781
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
I was just pointing out that some Leaf fans, specifically The Messenger, always say that high status players well be coming to the Leafs, when in reality they probably won't. I am not a Leaf hater, I am just trying to play the reasonable fan here.
That is completely wrong .. in fact ..

I seldom say anything close to that .. In fact some of my fellow Leaf fans get annoyed with me as I often take the very conservative route and often tell some of them that their expectations are TOO HIGH ..

As pointed out before .. Just asking a question does not make COULD equal to WOULD .. Just discussing the issues as they appear in the papers and how they would effect the Leafs in some cases ..


Last edited by Mess: 04-27-2005 at 08:33 PM.
Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 08:30 PM
  #73
gretzky99
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
That is completely wrong .. in fact ..

I seldom say anything close to that .. In fact some of my fellow Leaf fans get annoyed with me as I often take the very conservative route and often tell some of them that their expectations are TOO HIGH ..

As pointed out before .. Just asking a question does not make WOULD equal to COULD .. Just discussing the issues as they appear in the papers and how they would effect the Leafs in some cases ..
Fair enough, I may have labeled you wrong. I guess its just your constand suggesting that these things COULD happen that annoys me.

gretzky99 is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 08:35 PM
  #74
Crossroads*
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,986
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
Fair enough, I may have labeled you wrong. I guess its just your constand suggesting that these things COULD happen that annoys me.
I guess you could get jealous/annoyed by that because very little UFA's ever consider the Canucks as possible destinations, whereas Leaf fans enjoy the possibility of UFA's chosing Toronto as their place to play

Crossroads* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 08:39 PM
  #75
Roger's Pancreas*
 
Roger's Pancreas*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 13,363
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Roger's Pancreas*
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
That is completely wrong .. in fact ..

I seldom say anything close to that .. In fact some of my fellow Leaf fans get annoyed with me as I often take the very conservative route and often tell some of them that their expectations are TOO HIGH
Weren't you the one Toronto fan that kept insisting that Jeff Carter was going to declare UFA status and possibly sign with the leafs?"I told you so RE", "Jeff Carter", "Could Jeff Carter Become a Leaf" .

Roger's Pancreas* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:36 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.