HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Hossa, Heatley, Spezza and Nash......Oh my

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
04-27-2005, 09:43 PM
  #76
MacDaddy TLC*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Leafin La Vida Loca
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,478
vCash: 500
The key word being could. All Mess was saying was the Jeff Carter could use some legal loopholes to become an unrestricted free agent. Messenger also stated that Carter was a Leafs fan growing up. It was the flyers fans who got their backs up and tried to discredit him and tried to downplay the possibility which by the smoke we are seeing usually means a fire. The Flyers fans instead of trying to see the reality of the situation began using the HF sheep call: "BAAAHHHH BAHHH Leafs fans oh ho ho. BAHHHH BAAAAHH"

MacDaddy TLC* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 09:45 PM
  #77
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
Fair enough, I may have labeled you wrong. I guess its just your constand suggesting that these things COULD happen that annoys me.
Well if I am annoying you then I am doing my job ..

In fact you give me too much credit ... An article is posted and we simply discuss the merits of it .. I am not a professional author so they are not my reports that often spur the discussions ..

This is also my home board you are the visitor here, so things said among fellow Leafs fans don't have to pass your approval, and are often said tongue in cheek just to get a rise out of our uninvited guests. If they bother you or annoy you perhaps you should not wonder so far from home, you will not find a lot of Nucklehead support here..


Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 09:49 PM
  #78
gretzky99
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crossroads
I guess you could get jealous/annoyed by that because very little UFA's ever consider the Canucks as possible destinations, whereas Leaf fans enjoy the possibility of UFA's chosing Toronto as their place to play
Jealous? Of you depleting leafs line up? Soon to be further depleted by a salary cap?

gretzky99 is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 09:50 PM
  #79
MacDaddy TLC*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Leafin La Vida Loca
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,478
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
BAAAAAHJealous? Of you depleting leafs line up? Soon to be further depleted by a salary cap?BAAAAAH
You forgot to add the BAAAAAH to the beginning and ending of your nonsense, so I have taken the liberty of adding them in for you. No thanks are necessary.

BTW, Markus Naslund's contract is expiring on July 1st. Maybe the Leafs should sign him just to piss off the Canuck fans.

MacDaddy TLC* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 10:00 PM
  #80
Roger's Pancreas*
 
Roger's Pancreas*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 13,363
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Roger's Pancreas*
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
The key word being could. All Mess was saying was the Jeff Carter could use some legal loopholes to become an unrestricted free agent. Messenger also stated that Carter was a Leafs fan growing up. It was the flyers fans who got their backs up and tried to discredit him and tried to downplay the possibility which by the smoke we are seeing usually means a fire. The Flyers fans instead of trying to see the reality of the situation began using the HF sheep call: "BAAAHHHH BAHHH Leafs fans oh ho ho. BAHHHH BAAAAHH"
This board is entirely based on possibilities and opinions. The Messanger is just one of those unrelenting posters that never give up on slim possibilities, as his avatar suggests. His posts just irritate anyone that isn't a Mapes poster, just adds to the playoff sweetness.

Roger's Pancreas* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 10:02 PM
  #81
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
The key word being could. All Mess was saying was the Jeff Carter could use some legal loopholes to become an unrestricted free agent. Messenger also stated that Carter was a Leafs fan growing up. It was the flyers fans who got their backs up and tried to discredit him and tried to downplay the possibility which by the smoke we are seeing usually means a fire. The Flyers fans instead of trying to see the reality of the situation began using the HF sheep call: "BAAAHHHH BAHHH Leafs fans oh ho ho. BAHHHH BAAAAHH"
Leaf fans are usually 10 steps ahead of most others anyways as we were discussing the merits of this particular situation months before they even hit the papers or the season was cancelled. Almost to the point you would think that we are the source of some of these articles published later on ..

In fact only Leaf fans in those threads were able to see that this "COULD" become an issue in the future .. and low and behold by today's article and quotes by JP Barry Jeff Carter's own agent says that this same issue is still a hot topic in the hockey community right now.

Funny no ones comes back and says you guys had something there, to this day they still mock it, in some strange denial ritual that I am sure only they can understand ..

Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 10:12 PM
  #82
gretzky99
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 388
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mayor of MacAppolis
You forgot to add the BAAAAAH to the beginning and ending of your nonsense, so I have taken the liberty of adding them in for you. No thanks are necessary.

BTW, Markus Naslund's contract is expiring on July 1st. Maybe the Leafs should sign him just to piss off the Canuck fans.
Haha, you are a comedian. I really like had you added "BAAAAAH", its really clever. It got the message across that you are a comedian, and well stop at nothing to make a joke.


Ya, the Leafs can go ahead an sign Naslund, becuase I mean, clearly the Leafs will be exempt from any Salary cap, right?


Last edited by think-blue-: 04-27-2005 at 10:22 PM. Reason: removed personal attack
gretzky99 is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 10:16 PM
  #83
MacDaddy TLC*
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Leafin La Vida Loca
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,478
vCash: 500
The point is intelligent discussion is welcomed by the Leafs fans here. The same tired old **** by visitors won't be welcomed and will be treated accordingly by me, and I'm sure I won't be alone.

MacDaddy TLC* is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 10:16 PM
  #84
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
This board is entirely based on possibilities and opinions. The Messanger is just one of those unrelenting posters that never give up on slim possibilities, as his avatar suggests. His posts just irritate anyone that isn't a Mapes poster, just adds to the playoff sweetness.
Whether we like it or not, each of us is constrained by limits on what we can do and feel. To ignore these limits leads to denial and eventually to failure. To achieve excellence, we must first understand the reality of the everyday, with all its demands and potential frustrations to eventually taste the fruits of our perseverance ..

Mess is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 10:59 PM
  #85
Volcanologist
Used Register
 
Volcanologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cosmodrome
Country: Germany
Posts: 20,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gretzky99
Jealous? Of you depleting leafs line up? Soon to be further depleted by a salary cap?
Heheh.

Volcanologist is offline  
Old
04-27-2005, 11:11 PM
  #86
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
This board is entirely based on possibilities and opinions. The Messanger is just one of those unrelenting posters that never give up on slim possibilities, as his avatar suggests. His posts just irritate anyone that isn't a Mapes poster, just adds to the playoff sweetness.
The Flyers don't have to worry about the Cup, their fans get all wet just by beating the Leafs.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 07:35 AM
  #87
SENSible1*
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,543
vCash: 500
Daly's reaction and the PA's take

link
Quote:
NHL VP Bill Daly lashed out at the NHLPA Players' Association over a Sun report yesterday, saying that a new collective bargaining agreement -- not the courts -- will determine the status of players. Asked to react to the Sun story that a number of agents are prepared to go to court to get their clients declared unrestricted free agents if there's no CBA in place by July 1, Daly told the Sun their status remains undecided.

And he indicated any agent who believes players taken in the 2003 draft that have not signed by June 1 will go back in the draft -- or NHLers who need qualifying offers by July 1 will become free agents -- is "misinformed."

"The status of all players, vis-a-vis NHL club rights, will be determined in collective bargaining," Daly wrote in an e-mail to the Sun. "Those who are suggesting otherwise -- namely, that certain players have now, or will have in the future a particular status -- are misinformed."

Later, in an interview with Sportsnet, Daly was even more upset: "It's a very uninformed and misguided premise which totally ignores and misconstrues the nature, purpose and laws of collective bargaining and the status of the multi-employer bargaining unit in collective bargaining."

Then, Daly added: "It's union-directed rhetoric which is so baseless it's almost laughable."
The PA's response.

Quote:
The NHLPA, meanwhile, is keeping its nose out of the argument over what happens to those affected if the lockout drags on.

"Player status issues, such as retention rights and free agency, are all subjects to be collectively bargained," union spokesman Jon Weatherdon said in a statement.
Agents can waste their money getting meaningless court decisions if they want. These issues will all be handled in the next CBA and since both parties interests are best served by having a year tick off all contracts and in the teams retaining players rights, they will be a virtual non-issue.

SENSible1* is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 08:33 AM
  #88
Patty Lee
I hate the Habs
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Panasonic Youth
Weren't you the one Toronto fan that kept insisting that Jeff Carter was going to declare UFA status and possibly sign with the leafs?"I told you so RE", "Jeff Carter", "Could Jeff Carter Become a Leaf" .
And? so what? When did Messenger say it would happen?

Patty Lee is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 09:35 AM
  #89
mydnyte
Registered User
 
mydnyte's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Country: Italy
Posts: 10,973
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thunderstruck
Agents can waste their money getting meaningless court decisions if they want. These issues will all be handled in the next CBA and since both parties interests are best served by having a year tick off all contracts and in the teams retaining players rights, they will be a virtual non-issue.
You can't be serious... If any court rules that a player has the right to become an Unrestricted Free Agent then there is nothing any CBA can do to change it ever under any circumstance, all they can do is Appeal, go back to court and try to have the ruling changed which will be unlikely.

mydnyte is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 09:47 AM
  #90
Volcanologist
Used Register
 
Volcanologist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Cosmodrome
Country: Germany
Posts: 20,815
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Around in 67
And? so what? When did Messenger say it would happen?
He didn't, it just really really bothers people when someone suggests the Leafs *might* get a good player.

Volcanologist is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 10:03 AM
  #91
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mydnyte
You can't be serious... If any court rules that a player has the right to become an Unrestricted Free Agent then there is nothing any CBA can do to change it ever under any circumstance, all they can do is Appeal, go back to court and try to have the ruling changed which will be unlikely.
That is certainly my feelings as well on the subject ..

We are in an area of uncertainty here .. We have never had a cancelled season or a year long lockout, and cancelled NHL entry draft all that do not permit the signing of players on time or make qualifying offers ..

So because of the uncertainty of the matter, no one knows what will really happen at this point .. However if the courts are involved they will have a say in the outcome IMO ..

This is an owners lockout, that bargaining move gives the NHL leverage in CBA talks by the threat of withholding wages and not honouring guaranteed contracts .. but all acts have consequences in life both good and bad and the whole process of COLLECTIVE BARGAINING would be a sham if Owners never face any disadvantages and the UNION never has any advantage by it .. No different then having a gun to someones head and saying "Sign this or else" ..

Bill Daly has stated this same thing before and apparently the player agents have not believed him or the articles would stop as would the discussions if the matter was crystal clear and irrefutable .. However they don't and so we can draw our own conclusions ..

Sure its a part of the CBA, no one questions that Mr. Bill Daly.. and things can be written into an new CBA if BOTH SIDES agree ... Unless Bob Goodenow comes out and says " I have given in on this issue" then all Daly is doing is creating more PR on the subject ..

These player agents are all smart lawyers, and know the CBA inside and out as its their jobs to educate their clients and get them the best deal often finding loopholes in it to exploit .. I believe the more noise Daly makes the more he angers the agents the greater the potential for a law suit to make him eat his words becomes ..

Last point .. The NHL has gone into meetings and called the NHL players autoworkers, and easily replaceable and interchangeable .. Then why does it matter so much if a few 20 year old kids can go play for the team they want ??


Last edited by Mess: 04-28-2005 at 10:41 AM.
Mess is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 10:05 AM
  #92
Patty Lee
I hate the Habs
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,786
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by PepNCheese
He didn't, it just really really bothers people when someone suggests the Leafs *might* get a good player.
of course even when they do get a good player, something magical happens, and they are no longer a good player once they put on the Maple Leaf. Its really strange how that happens, don't you think?

Patty Lee is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 10:26 AM
  #93
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 57,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
[size=3]Last point .. The NHL has gone into meetings and called the NHL players autoworkers, and easily replaceable and interchangeable .. Then why does it matter so much if a few 20 year old kids can go play for the team they want ??



Again, back to the harm done to draft class of 2003, they will be limited to the new rules, but are frozen in time.

Any signed 2003 player will be subject to the old CBA, whereas unsigned 2003 draftees will be subject to the new cap, and retrictive bonus clauses. However, the NHL is suggesting these unsigned 2003 players are frozen in time, so that would indicate they are entitled to compensation under the old CBA, otherwise they are not frozen in time.

Unsigned 2003 draft picks are an easily identifiable class of people that are being harmed by the NHL's actions.

The difference in being signed under the old CBA as some 2003 picks were and the unsigned frozen in time players can be several million dollars over the terms of their rookie contracts.

I think a very good case can be made to grant them UFA status in the courts. It is easy to see the NHL is attempting to apply a rule to benefit them in one case and to suspend the rule to benefit them in another.

Their own actions and words will be the best argument the agents can take to the courts.

ULF_55 is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 10:35 AM
  #94
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Since both the NHL and the NHLPA have said that players rights are to be collectively bargained, in order to have a player declared a free agent I guess that he will not be able to be an NHLPA member. If he is not an NHLPA member then he can't play in the NHL.

Don't all these niggly details just bug you?

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 10:44 AM
  #95
ULF_55
Global Moderator
 
ULF_55's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Mountain Standard Ti
Posts: 57,852
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Since both the NHL and the NHLPA have said that players rights are to be collectively bargained, in order to have a player declared a free agent I guess that he will not be able to be an NHLPA member. If he is not an NHLPA member then he can't play in the NHL.

Don't all these niggly details just bug you?
Too bad the NHLPA and NHL do not supersede the laws of the land.

ULF_55 is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 11:08 AM
  #96
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Too bad the NHLPA and NHL do not supersede the laws of the land.
Which laws are we talking about? There are millions of workers in the country working under collective bargaining agreements. They can all declare themselves "free agents" but they won't be working in a union shop if they do.

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 11:25 AM
  #97
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Too bad the NHLPA and NHL do not supersede the laws of the land.
That precisely the point .. Its the Arrogance of the NHL Bettman & Daly and the Owners that think they are above the LAW ..

If the NHLPA, the agents and players take this to court and the NHL loses the case .. They can jump up and down and scream and shout all they want and even put big fancy clauses in a new CBA .. No one is ever going to convince me that it can hold up.

I don't think Goodenow is losing any sleep over it anyways, because if his END GAME is decertification of the union .. That action makes all 700+ instant UFA NO QUESTIONS asked ..

So Daly can go about his daily business of feeding more propaganda to the PR fire if he chooses..







Mess is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 11:31 AM
  #98
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Which laws are we talking about? There are millions of workers in the country working under collective bargaining agreements. They can all declare themselves "free agents" but they won't be working in a union shop if they do.
That the nice thing about living in a free country .. When you don't like your employer or feel you are not being treated fairly ..you have the right of free choice to leave and go and work somewhere else..

I thought they abolished Slavery and the rights for people to own other humans ..

Apparently in the NHL a persons rights and wishes are not a concern of the masters as they are above the law of the land ..






Mess is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 11:46 AM
  #99
mooseOAK*
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 42,437
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Messenger
That the nice thing about living in a free country .. When you don't like your employer or feel you are not being treated fairly ..you have the right of free choice to leave and go and work somewhere else..

I thought they abolished Slavery and the rights for people to own other humans ..

Apparently in the NHL a persons rights and wishes are not a concern of the masters as they are above the law of the land ..





Gag.

All the players rights and freedoms are negotiated under the CBA between the league and their very own union. So the union, who they pay dues to and elect the governing council, is involved in dictating who holds their rights and for how long.

So, in effect, one of their slavemasters is actually themselves! How funny is that?

mooseOAK* is offline  
Old
04-28-2005, 12:28 PM
  #100
Mess
Global Moderator
 
Mess's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: Canada
Posts: 62,299
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55



Again, back to the harm done to draft class of 2003, they will be limited to the new rules, but are frozen in time.

Any signed 2003 player will be subject to the old CBA, whereas unsigned 2003 draftees will be subject to the new cap, and retrictive bonus clauses. However, the NHL is suggesting these unsigned 2003 players are frozen in time, so that would indicate they are entitled to compensation under the old CBA, otherwise they are not frozen in time.

Unsigned 2003 draft picks are an easily identifiable class of people that are being harmed by the NHL's actions.

The difference in being signed under the old CBA as some 2003 picks were and the unsigned frozen in time players can be several million dollars over the terms of their rookie contracts.

I think a very good case can be made to grant them UFA status in the courts. It is easy to see the NHL is attempting to apply a rule to benefit them in one case and to suspend the rule to benefit them in another.

Their own actions and words will be the best argument the agents can take to the courts.
Shhhh.. quiet ..Its a secret ..

This is exactly the case the player's agent will present to the courts .. OLD CBA to NEW CBA and the difference in earning potential between the two.

Enter into evidence a few choice quotes by Bobby Clarke that say " Both Carter and Richards would have been on the opening day roster had there been a Season" and have the Flyers explain the reasoning for not giving them contracts then, when training camp was about to open in a few days..

Then show that all other draft classes before this had a players rights retained for 2 years , and if unsigned the player COULD CHOOSE to re-enter the next entry draft and/or become an UFA based on his current age and birthday, if they did not sign.

Then the agent will remind the NHL that the right to sign a NHL contract is the PLAYERS right as it is optional and can not be obtained by any form or strong arm tactics in a free country.

At the same time will point out that these players rights were obtained at the entry draft June 22, 2003 and the Lockout began September 15th, 2004 .. Giving the Flyers organization a full 15 months exclusive negotiating time to sign these precious players that are so valuable now to them that the Lockout is really a SILLY excuse to use as the reason you need MORE TIME ..

Then the agent will enter Dion Phaneuf's contract and all the other 2003 that got signed to OLD CBA deals moments before the lockout by poor/small market teams which couldn't afford to overpay, but felt they didn't want to risk losing their key draft picks by a prolonged work stoppage..

Which will then point out the obvious that the intention of the Flyers organization was nothing more then to screw Carter and Richards out of earning what the others are now receiving, because the NEW CBA was almost certainly going to contain lower earning thresholds both in base and signing and performance bonuses ..

Then the agents and lawyers with take out their yellow highlighters and colour in the NEW CBA clause that both restricts these players rights for movement and their ability to earn money based on the CBA in which their rights were first obtained, which is written specifically for them in the best interest of the owners and not the players . Combined with the fact that Carter is not a member of the NHLPA yet and that he had neither a say nor a vote on the issue of his rights ..

Then in closing arguements the agent will state the intent of the Flyers organization is clear in that it wanted to screw over these draft picks financially to benefit the organization's own gain. Now they require both MORE TIME and SPECIAL CLAUSES in a new CBA in order to fulfill that goal.

At which time the Judge will stand up and say I have heard enough ..and follow that up with his best Martin Luther King quote :

" Free at last! free at last! thank God Almighty, you're free at last! "


Last edited by Mess: 04-28-2005 at 01:01 PM.
Mess is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:51 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.