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Jagr and Roy vs Lemieux and Brodeur

View Poll Results: Which duo would you rather have in their prime?
Jagr and Roy 18 27.27%
Lemieux and Brodeur 48 72.73%
Voters: 66. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
04-21-2013, 07:48 PM
  #1
lboogie42*
 
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Jagr and Roy vs Lemieux and Brodeur

If you could have one of these duos to come in their prime and play for your team right now, which would you pick? Thoughts? im asking cuz ive only seen 2 of these guys play and they are older and past their prime.


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04-21-2013, 07:50 PM
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Lemieux and Brodeur AINEC.

Mario >>>>>>>>> Jagr

Marty in his prime was still the best in the NHL.

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04-21-2013, 07:53 PM
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I'm a die hard Jagr fan voting for Mario and Marty. I mean come on, Mario is the most talented player of all time and Marty, imo, is the best goalie to ever play.

The poll would be closer if you paired Mario and Roy.

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04-21-2013, 07:55 PM
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People need to quit saying "Mario was the most talented player of all-time" garbage. There's no argument for him being better than Gretzky at all....none whatsoever. And, the only way you'd even be able to argue his talent as superior is if you somehow remove hockey IQ.

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04-21-2013, 07:56 PM
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2nd best forward and 5th-7th best goalie with 5th-7th greatest forward and greatest goaltender. Tough one

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04-21-2013, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by czechmate25 View Post
I'm a die hard Jagr fan voting for Mario and Marty. I mean come on, Mario is the most talented player of all time and Marty, imo, is the best goalie to ever play.

The poll would be closer if you paired Mario and Roy.
Roy was better than Brodeur.

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04-21-2013, 07:59 PM
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Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
Roy was better than Brodeur.
thats what ive heard. so i put the better forward with the worse goalie. once again ive only seen 2 of them play and they are old, so i dont really know how big the differential is.

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04-21-2013, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RealisticLeaf55 View Post
Roy was better than Brodeur.
Barely. Roy has the Conn Smythes but it's no where near a big enough gap to make up for Mario over Jagr.

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04-21-2013, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
Barely. Roy has the Conn Smythes but it's no where near a big enough gap to make up for Mario over Jagr.
It's not barely. It's about the same separation as the forwards.

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04-21-2013, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Teeder9 View Post
It's not barely. It's about the same separation as the forwards.
Oh, please. From 94-95 to 03-04, it was very close.

Brodeur had 72 shutouts to Roy's 39. Roy had a higher SV% by 0.04, but Brodeur had the better GAA by 0.20 and Brodeur played 146 more games. The advantage Roy has in SV% is even less come playoff time. But Roy had 1 more Conn Smythe in that time, which is well deserved.

I think Roy was better, but the gap between Marty and Roy is not even close to the gap between Jagr and Mario.

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04-21-2013, 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
Oh, please. From 94-95 to 03-04, it was very close.

Brodeur had 72 shutouts to Roy's 39. Roy had a higher SV% by 0.04, but Brodeur had the better GAA by 0.20 and Brodeur played 146 more games. The advantage Roy has in SV% is even less come playoff time. But Roy had 1 more Conn Smythe in that time, which is well deserved.

I think Roy was better, but the gap between Marty and Roy is not even close to the gap between Jagr and Mario.
Because I would use shutouts and gaa as a barometer? No, I wouldn't, but help yourself to team stats

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04-21-2013, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Teeder9 View Post
Because I would use shutouts and gaa as a barometer? No, I wouldn't, but help yourself to team stats
Right, you'd just make arbitrary choices as to what stats matter with a side order of bias.

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04-21-2013, 08:25 PM
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Brodeur is/was a good goaltender on a good team for a very long time. He was never elite on the level of Roy.

Lemieux > Jagr
Roy >> Brodeur

But it is close. But just for their primes, I take Jagr + Roy.

Although it would have been more fun to use Hasek, for Czechs vs Quebecois. Plus the result might have been closer.

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04-21-2013, 08:25 PM
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Roy was better than Brodeur, IMO, but the difference between Mario and Jags more than makes up for the relatively small difference between Roy and Marty.

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04-21-2013, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
Right, you'd just make arbitrary choices as to what stats matter with a side order of bias.
No, I'd watch both for their whole careers and know Brodeur was the beneficiary of a system meant to keep the other team from entering the zone and keeping their shots low quality. This isn't to say he was a bad goaltender, which I've already mentioned. He was never considered the best the entire time Roy and Hasek were playing, so how does he become better in their absence?

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04-21-2013, 08:27 PM
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Lemieux >>>> the other 3 combined

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04-21-2013, 08:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teeder9 View Post
No, I'd watch both for their whole careers and know Brodeur was the beneficiary of a system meant to keep the other team from entering the zone and keeping their shots low quality. This isn't to say he was a bad goaltender, which I've already mentioned. He was never considered the best the entire time Roy and Hasek were playing, so how does he become better in their absence?
trap trap trap, system system system. brodeur gets discredited because of the system. the system wouldnt of worked nearly as well if he wasnt so good, and if he wasnt the great at playing the puck. arguably the best puck playing goalie ever.

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04-21-2013, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teeder9 View Post
No, I'd watch both for their whole careers and know Brodeur was the beneficiary of a system meant to keep the other team from entering the zone and keeping their shots low quality. This isn't to say he was a bad goaltender, which I've already mentioned. He was never considered the best the entire time Roy and Hasek were playing, so how does he become better in their absence?
Brodeur won 2 Vezinas while Roy played, and 4 while Hasek played. I think that's a pretty good indicator that people considered him the best.

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04-21-2013, 08:33 PM
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Originally Posted by lboogie42 View Post
trap trap trap, system system system. brodeur gets discredited because of the system. the system wouldnt of worked nearly as well if he wasnt so good, and if he wasnt the great at playing the puck. arguably the best puck playing goalie ever.
He wasn't arguably the best, he was the best, but how does any of this matter in the end? I'm not discrediting a fact, you are downplaying it.

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04-21-2013, 08:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Teeder9 View Post
He wasn't arguably the best, he was the best, but how does any of this matter in the end? I'm not discrediting a fact, you are downplaying it.
i dont understand how i am. please explain

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04-21-2013, 08:42 PM
  #21
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Lemieux alone vs Jagr + Roy

IMO

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04-21-2013, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by EastCoastNiner View Post
People need to quit saying "Mario was the most talented player of all-time" garbage. There's no argument for him being better than Gretzky at all....none whatsoever. And, the only way you'd even be able to argue his talent as superior is if you somehow remove hockey IQ.
Usually when people say "talented", they're talking about raw physical talent, and not including mental ability.

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04-21-2013, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by I Hate Chris Butler View Post
Oh, please. From 94-95 to 03-04, it was very close.

Brodeur had 72 shutouts to Roy's 39. Roy had a higher SV% by 0.04, but Brodeur had the better GAA by 0.20 and Brodeur played 146 more games. The advantage Roy has in SV% is even less come playoff time. But Roy had 1 more Conn Smythe in that time, which is well deserved.
For a little bit of context, Chris Osgood was just as far back of Brodeur as Brodeur was of Roy in save percentage. Osgood also had 39 shutouts, just like Roy. He had a second-team selection, Vezina nomination, and Cup win. And let's take a look at the average number of shots faced per 60 minutes:

Roy: 28.03
Brodeur: 24.40
Osgood: 26.18

And of course, we can also consider winning percentage:

Roy: .615 (291-169-72)
Brodeur: .625 (374-205-97)
Osgood: .610 (282-169-61)

I think there's a pretty fair argument that Chris Osgood was better than Martin Brodeur or Patrick Roy, using your statistical margins of "equal or better".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Brodeur is/was a good goaltender on a good team for a very long time. He was never elite on the level of Roy.

Lemieux > Jagr
Roy >> Brodeur

But it is close. But just for their primes, I take Jagr + Roy.

Although it would have been more fun to use Hasek, for Czechs vs Quebecois. Plus the result might have been closer.
Using primes, there's no answer but Mario+Brodeur. Brodeur was the best goalie in the league in his prime (not the the level Roy was, but still #1) and Mario's prime is on a level that perhaps only a handful of other players ever have reached.

Jagr+Hasek definitely would have made it more interesting; Hasek's prime was one of the greatest ever, as was Jagr's. Brodeur's was not.

EDIT: I do think that if you are picking which players you would want to have on your team for their entire career, Jagr/Roy makes more sense. Jagr was always far more durable than Mario, and has shown his longevity with top six performance this season.


Last edited by pdd: 04-21-2013 at 09:17 PM.
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04-21-2013, 09:06 PM
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Mario>>>Jagr
Pretty much even between Roy and Brodeur, although if I had to choose, probably Roy.

Either way its team Mario.

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04-21-2013, 09:10 PM
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Is the difference between Jagr and Lemieux 3 times greater than the difference between Roy and Brodeur?

Because Roy/Brodeur will be on the ice for 60 minutes, as opposed to Jagr/Lemieux who will be on for 20.

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