HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

How much higher can Jaromir Jagr reach in terms of all time ranking as a player?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-07-2015, 04:06 PM
  #1
daigle
Registered User
 
daigle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: Sweden
Posts: 240
vCash: 500
How much higher can Jaromir Jagr reach in terms of all time ranking as a player?

Not in terms of statistics, but how he is regarded as a top player in the history of the game.

Found this list, "HOH Top 100 Final List". Here he is at #25.


1 99 Wayne Gretzky
2 4 Bobby Orr
3 9 Gordie Howe
4 66 Mario Lemieux
5 9 Bobby Hull LW
6 9 Maurice Richard
7 2 Eddie Shore
8 4 Jean Beliveau
9 2 Doug Harvey
10 7 Howie Morenz
11 77 Raymond Bourque
12 1 Jacques Plante
13 39 Dominik Hasek
14 21 Stan Mikita
15 10 Guy Lafleur
16 33 Patrick Roy G
17 5 Denis Potvin
18 4 Leonard "Red" Kelly
19 1 Terry Sawchuk
20 7 Phil Esposito
21 1 Glenn Hall G
22 16 Bobby Clarke
23 7 Ted Lindsay
24 11 Mark Messier
25 68 Jaromir Jagr

Not saying this list some sort of key, but it gives you a hum.

How much further can he climb from where he is today?

After this season he will most certainly have reached #4 all time points, and #5 all time goals, and #6 in all time assists. If he would play another season he might possibly reach #3 in all time points and #4 in all time goals. Would this even mean something to his legacy, or he can't go any higher from where he is today? One more cup?

daigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:09 PM
  #2
nwaZ
Registered User
 
nwaZ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,313
vCash: 500
I don't think much can change now. Perhaps another dominant playoffs would add some?

nwaZ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:12 PM
  #3
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,895
vCash: 500
That list was completed in 2008 with Jagr's failures in Washington fresh in mind and a panel that had a much dimmer view of "dead puck era" hockey than most posters who regularly post here today.

On the recent wingers project, he finished decisively behind Hull/Richard and decisively above Lafleur.

I'd guess that he'd finish about 15th if the list were done today. Probably a tossup with Mikita among forwards with Lidstrom, Potvin, Kelly, Hasek, Roy, and Plante in the mix. I'd have Messier too but most of this forum wouldn't.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:19 PM
  #4
Lorne Malvo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 387
vCash: 500
He's not adding anything of consequence to his legacy unless you believe reaching aesthetically pleasing career number milestones that are divisible by 10 is of any real importance.

His legacy rests on how good he was. Not being a decent hockey player at 42.

Lorne Malvo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:20 PM
  #5
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwaZ View Post
I don't think much can change now. Perhaps another dominant playoffs would add some?
I don't think he could do anything more to boost his stock at this point than win a Conn Smythe on the way to his 3rd Cup. It's one of the few trophies that scorers end up with that hasn't found its way onto Jagr's shelf yet. I would imagine that could involve enough points to pass Anderson at #4 on the career playoff scoring list, too.

Ohashi_Jouzu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:31 PM
  #6
daigle
Registered User
 
daigle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: Sweden
Posts: 240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
That list was completed in 2008 with Jagr's failures in Washington fresh in mind and a panel that had a much dimmer view of "dead puck era" hockey than most posters who regularly post here today.

On the recent wingers project, he finished decisively behind Hull/Richard and decisively above Lafleur.

I'd guess that he'd finish about 15th if the list were done today. Probably a tossup with Mikita among forwards with Lidstrom, Potvin, Kelly, Hasek, Roy, and Plante in the mix. I'd have Messier too but most of this forum wouldn't.
Wow, didn't notice that list was from 2008. Well, since then he has reached a couple of nice milestones which should mean something, while also showing he can to compete at top level at this age.

daigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:33 PM
  #7
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,994
vCash: 500
I'd say #11-15. There was some pretty good discussion about it in a thread on the poll board.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 04:45 PM
  #8
daigle
Registered User
 
daigle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: Sweden
Posts: 240
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'd say #11-15. There was some pretty good discussion about it in a thread on the poll board.
Oh, thanks.

Here is the thread: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...highlight=jagr

daigle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 05:16 PM
  #9
Thenameless
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 371
vCash: 500
His legacy is pretty well cemented. He'd need an unexpectedly good season or unexpectedly good playoff run to improve. Not impossible, but hard to do at this point in his career.

Thenameless is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 05:19 PM
  #10
MXD
Registered User
 
MXD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 22,691
vCash: 500
Without putting too much thoughts into it...
Exactly 16th.

MXD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 07:33 PM
  #11
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,485
vCash: 500
I have a hard time not separating forwards from Dmen and goalies but he is a top 10 (maybe top 5 even) forward without even looking IMO.

How he is aging and what he is doing this year counts, everything should in comparing each player with another one.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 07:44 PM
  #12
Sprague Cleghorn
User Registered
 
Sprague Cleghorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Edmonton, KY
Country: Orkney Islands
Posts: 1,523
vCash: 214
Somewhere in the mid teens.

Sprague Cleghorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 08:05 PM
  #13
ted1971
History Of Hockey
 
ted1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: south jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 1,930
vCash: 500
I think we need to do another one of these soon.

ted1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-07-2015, 10:54 PM
  #14
ForsbergForever
Red Rocket
 
ForsbergForever's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,774
vCash: 500
Well he's probably going to be 4th all-time in points before he retires so i'd say that's got to count for a heck of a lot, especially considering he missed three years in Russia and played a big chunk of his career during the much maligned "dead puck era" (which is statistically speaking no different than current scoring levels, but I digress...).

ForsbergForever is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 09:38 AM
  #15
jigglysquishy
Registered User
 
jigglysquishy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Regina, Saskatchewan
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
I'd say #11-15. There was some pretty good discussion about it in a thread on the poll board.
Exactly where I'd have him. I frequently slot him somewhere in the 10-12 range.

That being said, I'm not sure how to judge his career over the past few years. It's extremely impressive that he's playing as good as he is at the age he is, but it's so far removed from his peak I don't want to put too much stock in it.

jigglysquishy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 09:47 AM
  #16
Norm Ullman
Registered User
 
Norm Ullman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 528
vCash: 500
He is higher ranked than what the OP suggests but, at this point, he cannot climb any higher. At his age, he will not put up any more dominant seasons thus, he is stuck at his rung on the ladder.

Norm Ullman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 11:16 AM
  #17
tarheelhockey
Global Moderator
 
tarheelhockey's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: The Triangle
Country: United States
Posts: 35,456
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'd guess that he'd finish about 15th if the list were done today. Probably a tossup with Mikita among forwards with Lidstrom, Potvin, Kelly, Hasek, Roy, and Plante in the mix. I'd have Messier too but most of this forum wouldn't.
This sounds about right to me. It seems like at least 1 or 2 of the goalies should definitely be ahead of him, if positional balance is valued.

tarheelhockey is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 11:22 AM
  #18
quoipourquoi
Moderator
Goaltender
 
quoipourquoi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Hockeytown, MI
Country: United States
Posts: 3,994
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
This sounds about right to me. It seems like at least 1 or 2 of the goalies should definitely be ahead of him, if positional balance is valued.
I know I can flip-flop on Jagr and Hasek all day.

quoipourquoi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 12:00 PM
  #19
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
 
Hippasus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bridgeview/Evanston
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
If he ends up with 2nd all-time in points, he will be considered to go up in the longevity factor. Maybe a couple notches below Howe in that regard. I would guess top 10 all-time if he continues to play until he is 2nd in all-time points. If what I just said comes to pass, and if I had to slot him in in the 2008 HOH list from the OP, I'd put him between Harvey and Morenz. This was from Nhl.com not too long ago:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=31693

Hippasus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 12:58 PM
  #20
BROOKLYnKNIGHTS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,637
vCash: 500
Your list is old so I can't rank him based on that one.
I can't see him gaining enough significant amount of ground at this point.
One thing shocks me when people say Crosby is/will be ranked higher all time?
I don't believe that to be true.

BROOKLYnKNIGHTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 01:22 PM
  #21
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippasus View Post
If he ends up with 2nd all-time in points, he will be considered to go up in the longevity factor. Maybe a couple notches below Howe in that regard. I would guess top 10 all-time if he continues to play until he is 2nd in all-time points. If what I just said comes to pass, and if I had to slot him in in the 2008 HOH list from the OP, I'd put him between Harvey and Morenz. This was from Nhl.com not too long ago:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/blogpost.htm?id=31693
Why should we care where he finishes all time in points? If Mark Messier retired in 1997 before he joined the Canucks would it have seriously hurt his legacy?

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 01:27 PM
  #22
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROOKLYnKNIGHTS View Post
Your list is old so I can't rank him based on that one.
I can't see him gaining enough significant amount of ground at this point.
One thing shocks me when people say Crosby is/will be ranked higher all time?
I don't believe that to be true.
Sid is only 27 and is in his 10th year as a top 5 player in the world.

He could easily age well into a better career than Jagr.

Health as always is the question, even this year with the mumps he is 7th in scoring, 5 points out of first place.

Jagr has already climbed that hill and is a top 5-10ish forwards of all time.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 01:35 PM
  #23
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 24,097
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why should we care where he finishes all time in points? If Mark Messier retired in 1997 before he joined the Canucks would it have seriously hurt his legacy?
Obviously not in terms of playoffs, but without his regular season numbers from there out Messier doesn't pass Esposito or Sakic in career scoring, and a good half of his scoring would have been during the "Gretzky years"; both of which I could see possibly making a difference somehow in the end (for right or wrong).

Ohashi_Jouzu is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 02:06 PM
  #24
Hippasus
1,9,45,165,495,1287,
 
Hippasus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bridgeview/Evanston
Posts: 2,471
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why should we care where he finishes all time in points? If Mark Messier retired in 1997 before he joined the Canucks would it have seriously hurt his legacy?
Because longevity is a factor in career assessment in hockey. That's one of the reasons Howe is regarded so highly. PPG could be another factor to take into account for someone like Bossy, but since the question of the OP is one of career assessment, a long, lengthy, and productive career is generally more highly regarded than peak performance. Re: Messier: Yes, I think it would hurt his career placement a bit. His PPG would look better though and that would soften the blow a bit, so to speak.

Hippasus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-08-2015, 02:10 PM
  #25
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,895
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hippasus View Post
Because longevity is a factor in career assessment in hockey. That's one of the reasons Howe is regarded so highly. PPG could be another factor to take into account for someone like Bossy, but since the question of the OP is one of career assessment, a long, lengthy, and productive career is generally more highly regarded than peak performance.
Longevity as an elite player is a factor. But simply sticking around for 5 vs 10 years compiling stats long after he was an elite player? meh, I don't think it should matter. Good for Jagr that he's still good enough to get an NHL paycheck, but I don't think it gives him a better legacy.

I mean, nobody cares what Chris Chelios did at the age of 45.

TheDevilMadeMe is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:02 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.