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Top 5 ommitted HOFers

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Old
04-30-2005, 04:25 PM
  #26
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Originally Posted by MS
I suspect off-ice stuff is one of the bigger reasons Glen Anderson is not in the HHOF.
we've heard those rumors for decades........but um, doesn't he have a wife and kids?

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04-30-2005, 04:29 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I'll take Mark Howe and Brian propp over all 5 of those players, and I wouldn't induct any of them.
I definetly thought of Howe for sure as an ommision but Propp? I don't know he's up there too but if you were a star in the 80s and never got 100 points that hurts you. I know he got 90 and up a few times, but still

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04-30-2005, 04:30 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Big Phil
I love Paul Henderosn, met him twice, a class act. And I as much as anybody love the '72 series and appreciate the importance of it and am very glad he saved our bacon in all the last three games. And he did have a decent career, but to compare him to Shutt, Gilles or Barber is way off. Shutt may have benefitted from Lafleur but he was still better than Henderson, as was Gilles even though I think he shouldnt be in the Hall. As for Barber, I wish you had seen him play. He was a first team all star in '76 and second in '79 and '81. His career high in points is 112. Henderson's is 60.

No knock on Paul, but the '72 team was voted the Team of the Century and is already in as a whole in the HOF. That should be good enough.
I saw all of them play. Combined Henderson had 750 pts in the same era as those guys, which is very comparable career wise. Plus he scored the biggest goal in history to that point. Barber and Shutt were better at their peaks, but career wise they were all very similar.

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04-30-2005, 04:33 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blamebettman
we've heard those rumors for decades........but um, doesn't he have a wife and kids?
I was referring more to the reports a couple years ago that he was a deadbeat dad to his child from a previous relationship, and to the mysterious death in his pool in 1988. As for those 'other' rumours, who knows. Whatever the case, his image off the ice has been far from squeaky-clean.

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04-30-2005, 04:43 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by Moose Head
I saw all of them play. Combined Henderson had 750 pts in the same era as those guys, which is very comparable career wise. Plus he scored the biggest goal in history to that point. Barber and Shutt were better at their peaks, but career wise they were all very similar.
Henderson had 0 cups, made 0 post-season All-star teams, played in 2 All-star games, and had 0 seasons over 60 points.

Those other three guys won 11 cups, made 8 post-season All-star teams, played in 10 All-star games, and had 21 seasons over 60 points (that's an average of 7 seasons each better than Henderson's best year). All had career highs of 90 points or more. Barber and Shutt scored almost twice as many NHL goals as Henderson.

Aside from that goal, there's nothing else even remotely HHOF-worthy about Henderson's career. And that goal, and Henderson, are very well represented in the HHOF.

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04-30-2005, 05:04 PM
  #31
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A few that comes to mind are Kharlamov, Holacek, Ruzicka, Firsov, maybe Tikhanov even though he's such an arse. I don't really feel there are any NHL players who should be in the hall that arn't, not counting recently retired ones whose time will come soon. Among great international players, I don't think Krutov and Makarov should get in. Larianov definitely will though.

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Old
04-30-2005, 05:09 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
Among great international players, I don't think Krutov and Makarov should get in. Larianov definitely will though.
I thikn you're right that Larionov WILL get in, but Makarov was clearly the better player.

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04-30-2005, 05:11 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
I definetly thought of Howe for sure as an ommision but Propp? I don't know he's up there too but if you were a star in the 80s and never got 100 points that hurts you. I know he got 90 and up a few times, but still
A few times he was on his way to 100 points, and was injured, costing him that chance. Also he never played with an elite centerman during his career.

He was the best offensive player on the mid-80's Flyers, perhaps the best ever to not win a Cup. Went to the Finals 5 times, and was voted one of the CHL's 3 best forwards of all-time.

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04-30-2005, 05:11 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I thikn you're right that Larionov WILL get in, but Makarov was clearly the better player.
At his very best you may be right, but Makarovv's prime wasn't nearly as long.

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Old
04-30-2005, 05:14 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I thikn you're right that Larionov WILL get in, but Makarov was clearly the better player.
Absolutely agree. I don't think people realize just how good Makarov was when he played with the green unit. IMO, there's a few eastern block players that no one on this board even talks about that could reasonably make a case for induction, like Jiri Holocek.

It's the Hockey HOF, not the North American Hockey HOF.

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Old
04-30-2005, 05:18 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
At his very best you may be right, but Makarovv's prime wasn't nearly as long.
Makarov's was better than Larionov from 1978-79 through the 1993-94 season. Larionov was the better player from 1994-95 onward ... when both were past their prime.

Larionov was a very very good hockey player and IMO still the weakest of the famed green unit.

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04-30-2005, 05:22 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Makarov's was better than Larionov from 1978-79 through the 1993-94 season. Larionov was the better player from 1994-95 onward ... when both were past their prime.

Larionov was a very very good hockey player and IMO still the weakest of the famed green unit.
I think that spread is a bit excessive. We can agree to disagree on this one though.

Valeri Kamensky is another interesting name. Not only was he a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in the twilight of his career, but when he was in his prime, I'm not sure there was anyone better besides Gretzky and Lemieux.

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04-30-2005, 05:35 PM
  #38
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Originally Posted by reckoning
Players who deserve to make it, but won`t get selected when they`re eligible

Eric Lindros
Theoren Fleury
Wow, did you ever nail that. I was looking at Barber's career numbers a couple days ago and got the urge to take a peak at Eric's. Unbelievable difference in the way those 2 guys are perceived when it is pretty clear Eric was a far more dominant player.

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04-30-2005, 05:40 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Epsilon
I think that spread is a bit excessive. We can agree to disagree on this one though.

Valeri Kamensky is another interesting name. Not only was he a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in the twilight of his career, but when he was in his prime, I'm not sure there was anyone better besides Gretzky and Lemieux.
Makarov led the Russian league in scoring 9 times, was named the top player in Russia 3 times. Larionov never led the Russian league in scoring, and was named top player once. For most of their careers, including their first several years in the NHL, Makarov was considered the superior player. Makarov's career had a normal downhill path after age 35, while Larionov somehow seemed to get better.

Kamensky came to the NHL when he was 25, same age Brad Richards and Vincent Lecavalier are now. When Colorado won the Cup, he wasn't in the twilight of his career - he turned 30 during that playoff run.

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04-30-2005, 05:47 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by MS
Kamensky came to the NHL when he was 25, same age Brad Richards and Vincent Lecavalier are now. When Colorado won the Cup, he wasn't in the twilight of his career - he turned 30 during that playoff run.
Kamensky really tailed off at young age though. He had a couple more decent seasons before going to the Rangers and then his career ended shortly after. He's like the Juan Gonzalez of hockey. Larianov is pretty much the exact opposite, of course.

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Old
04-30-2005, 06:05 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moose Head
If guys like Shutt, Gillies and Barber got in, Henderson should as well. Combine his NHL and WHA numbers and he compares very favourable with those guys who played in virtually the same era.
WHA points aren`t worth the same as NHL points; if we`re going to combine them then guys like Marc Tardif, Real Clouthier, Andre Lacroix, Anders Hedberg, Ralph Backstrom and John McKenzie all come out with more points than Henderson. I don`t think any of those guys have ever seriously been considered HHOF candidates.

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04-30-2005, 06:13 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by reckoning
WHA points aren`t worth the same as NHL points; if we`re going to combine them then guys like Marc Tardif, Real Clouthier, Andre Lacroix, Anders Hedberg, Ralph Backstrom and John McKenzie all come out with more points than Henderson. I don`t think any of those guys have ever seriously been considered HHOF candidates.
Not to mention if you start counting WHA points to make statistical arguments then you may as well start counting European league points as well, at which point guys like Makarov become total automatics and guys like Hakan Loob start to look pretty good too. BTW, Loob is a guy who I think would have been a likely Hall of Famer had he played his entire career in the NHL.

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04-30-2005, 06:42 PM
  #43
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1. Roggie Vachon. He won over 300 games, in an era where it actually meant something. Won a Vezina and a Cup or two in Montreal. Was one of only a few highlights for the Kings in the 1970s.

2. Dave Taylor. Was at a point-per-game for his career until he was about 35. Two 100-point seasons, three 90-point seasons, well over a point-per-game in several seasons. Did it all in relative obscurity in LA.

3. Sergei Makarov. Remember, it's the Hockey Hall of Fame. Had some good seasons in the NHL, even though he came over after his 30th birthday. But he also has one of the best international track records ever, and that'll get him in, likely this year.

4. Mark Howe. Likely the best eligible defenceman not in the Hall. Never won a Norris, but that's a reflection of the tough competition that he faced in his prime. (Bourque, Coffey, Langway and Chelios). A three-time first team all-star, scored over 50 points in his first nine seasons. If it does mean anything, he scored over 100 points in his last season in the WHA, although 100 points in that circus was like 50-60 in the NHL.

5. Cam Neely. In his prime, he was one of the five or 10 best players on the planet. Could dominate all aspects of the game. Three 50-goal seasons, would have done that at least three more times if not for injury. Three or four-time post-season all-star. Starting from age 21 to his retirement at 30, was well over a point-per-game. He's only under a point per game because his numbers were low in Vancouver.

Honourable mention to: Steve Larmer (ultra-consistent two-way force), Bobby Smith (terrific offensive player), Guy Carbonneau (best defensive forward since Bob Gainey, bar none), Rick Middleton (good offensive skills), Dale Hunter (terrific blend of skill, toughness and leadership) and Doug Wilson (several injury-plagued seasons are the only thing keeping him out of the Hall).

Andy Moog, Glenn Anderson and Kevin Lowe were all excellent players, too. But all of them are a notch below Hall worthy.

Interesting to note: It's a very weak year for first-time candidates. Mike Vernon, Pat Verbeek and Gary Suter are the best of this year's bunch. I don't see any of them getting in on the first ballot. I'd put Vernon in there, and he may get in eventually, but not the other two, or anyone else eligible this year. That means a couple overlooked players might finally get in.

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04-30-2005, 07:00 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by silver_made
wrong
Well, I've got an autographed pic saying/showing/commemorating he's in the Flyers' Hall of Fame...

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04-30-2005, 08:38 PM
  #45
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from my HHOF Monitor

Retired Players, not in HHOF:

# - POS - Seas. - Adj PTS or Adj WIN - PO PTS or Adj PO WIN - ASG - 1 ALL STAR - 2 ALL STAR - HHOF? - HHOF Monitor - Player Name
================================================== ============
102 -- D -- 16 -- 0554 -- 061 -- 04 -- 03 -- 0 -- 0 -- 1208,32 -- Howe Mark
105 -- R -- 15 -- 0645 -- 063 -- 10 -- 01 -- 0 -- 0 -- 1170,74 -- Provost Claude
122 -- L -- 16 -- 0866 -- 214 -- 05 -- 00 -- 0 -- - -- 1062,14 -- Anderson Glenn
130 -- D -- 17 -- 0295 -- 030 -- 07 -- 01 -- 0 -- 0 -- 1045,51 -- Talbot Jean Guy
132 -- R -- 15 -- 0706 -- 084 -- 03 -- 00 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1037,25 -- Rousseau Bobby
140 -- D -- 13 -- 0350 -- 065 -- 07 -- 01 -- 0 -- 0 -- 1002,30 -- Trembley J.C.
144 -- G -- 16 -- 0372 -- 035 -- 03 -- 00 -- 2 -- 0 -- 0987,95 -- Vachon Rogie
153 -- G -- 13 -- 0301 -- 028 -- 01 -- 01 -- 1 -- 0 -- 0947,31 -- Liut Mike
154 -- C -- 16 -- 0723 -- 088 -- 01 -- 00 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0939,66 -- Goring Butch
158 -- C -- 16 -- 0695 -- 046 -- 05 -- 00 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0923,54 -- Goyette Phil
159 -- C -- 17 -- 0659 -- 059 -- 06 -- 00 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0923,34 -- Backstrom Ralph
162 -- L -- 13 -- 0694 -- 022 -- 00 -- 01 -- 1 -- 0 -- 0918,99 -- Thompson Paul
168 -- D -- 19 -- 0326 -- 058 -- 07 -- 00 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0900,22 -- Lowe Kevin
171 -- D -- 12 -- 0221 -- 020 -- 05 -- 01 -- 3 -- 0 -- 0883,21 -- Brewer Carl
173 -- D -- 16 -- 0617 -- 080 -- 08 -- 01 -- 2 -- 0 -- 0876,49 -- Wilson Doug
175 -- C -- 13 -- 0663 -- 047 -- 07 -- 00 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0868,48 -- Mckenney Don
178 -- G -- 13 -- 0252 -- 033 -- 04 -- 01 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0858,94 -- Peeters Pete
179 -- G -- 10 -- 0183 -- 018 -- 03 -- 00 -- 3 -- 0 -- 0857,89 -- Rayner Chuck
181 -- L -- 12 -- 0468 -- 027 -- 07 -- 01 -- 2 -- 0 -- 0856,17 -- Smith Sid
182 -- L -- 18 -- 0628 -- 079 -- 07 -- 00 -- 0 -- 0 -- 0852,94 -- Duff Dick
183 -- L -- 11 -- 0595 -- 053 -- 07 -- 02 -- 2 -- 0 -- 0850,36 -- Martin Rick
184 -- R -- 14 -- 0760 -- 100 -- 03 -- 00 -- 1 -- 0 -- 0849,95 -- Middleton Rick
185 -- G -- 13 -- 0174 -- 012 -- 03 -- 00 -- 2 -- 0 -- 0836,07 -- Hodge Charlie
186 -- L -- 11 -- 0431 -- 011 -- 04 -- 01 -- 1 -- 0 -- 0831,34 -- Stewart Gaye

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Old
04-30-2005, 10:41 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Epsilon
Valeri Kamensky is another interesting name. Not only was he a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in the twilight of his career, but when he was in his prime, I'm not sure there was anyone better besides Gretzky and Lemieux.
At one point I thought that Kamensy was the best right winger in hockey, but I wouldn't have said third best player overall. His prime was far too short to get inducted.

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05-01-2005, 06:04 AM
  #47
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
At one point I thought that Kamensy was the best right winger in hockey, but I wouldn't have said third best player overall. His prime was far too short to get inducted.
No kidding. That's a reach; that's about as far a reach as possible....and Kamensky won me many playoff drafts so I've got nothing bad to say...

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05-01-2005, 07:07 AM
  #48
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Glenn Anderson

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Old
05-01-2005, 07:55 AM
  #49
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Originally Posted by Hyped
No kidding. That's a reach; that's about as far a reach as possible....and Kamensky won me many playoff drafts so I've got nothing bad to say...
This was before he got to the NHL, and only for a year, maybe two.

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05-01-2005, 12:59 PM
  #50
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Just a note: although Pulford is in the HOF in the Player's category, he was really inducted for his lengthy tenure as a Black Hawks exec.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MS
Vachon is kinda dubious to me. Listing Vezinas and Cups make him look better than he actually was
The Vezinas and Cups didn't even occur during Rogie's prime. Yeah, he was backing up Gump and Dryden, but when Rogie got a chance to be the main man in Los Angeles, he was sensational. First, consider the team he was playing behind. To give you an idea, let's look at the top ten Kings scorers during Vachon's stint in Los Angeles:

1. Butch Goring
2. Marcel Dionne (only for the last three years of Rogie's tenure)
3. Bob Berry
4. Mike Murphy
5. Juha Widing
6. Tom Williams
7. Mike Corrigan
8. Bob Nevin
9. Don Kozak
10. Frank St. Marseille

This was an *awful* team, folks. From goal line to goal line, one of the worst in the league at that time, yet Rogie's winning percentage in L.A. was .536, which was amazing (other Kings goalies during the same period, .406). He didn't get the attention playing out on the Left Coast that other goalies did, but he stole more games during the seventies with the possible exception of Tony Esposito (who had a much better team in front of him). Although he was understandably passed over for Dryden, he was a better goaltender than Dryden for the majority of their playing careers afterwards.

Comprable to Beezer and Vernon? No. Not to slight Beezer, who had some stellar seasons, but never regularly elevated a lousy team the way Vachon did. Vernon? Please. Above-average goalie, at best, who was lucky enough to play for a couple of powerhouses during his career. And neither goalie was the workhorse that Vachon was.


Last edited by Snap Wilson: 06-09-2005 at 01:24 PM.
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