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2013 D-Core Overhaul

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Old
05-08-2013, 09:24 AM
  #151
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Personally, I remember watching the last 20 or so games of that season, and then the playoffs and thinking man this Seidenberg is looking really good. I was pretty shocked when they just let him walk.

He wasn't even asking for that much, considering he was essentially the #2 during those playoffs. Nic Wallin was making 1.8, Corvo 2.8, Kaberle 2.2 on the same team.
Bottom line was that he was inconsistent that season and inconsistent over his entire career. He was reportedly looking for a 3x3 contract which was too much given both his performance and the overall team budget.

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Wasn't that the same year JR lowballed Babchuk after he had scored like 18 goals or something?
The guy deserved to get a modest offer. He's like the RH version of MAB, except MAB can actually quarterback a PP in addition to a heavy shot. Both are lousy defensively.

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05-08-2013, 09:43 AM
  #152
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Bottom line was that he was inconsistent that season and inconsistent over his entire career. He was reportedly looking for a 3x3 contract which was too much given both his performance and the overall team budget.
Except he did turn out to be worth that, and anybody with half a brain and one working eye could reason that he was an improving, relatively young player whom the team could use a hell of a lot more than retread garbage like Ward and Corvo. This is not me being revisionist, it's saying what I felt at the time. It would be interesting to go back through threads from then and see what the board consensus was. Hmmmm....

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The guy deserved to get a modest offer. He's like the RH version of MAB, except MAB can actually quarterback a PP in addition to a heavy shot. Both are lousy defensively.
Not saying Babs was great. He went to pieces in the playoffs that year. But he wasn't nearly as bad defensively as you are remembering.

Thinking back JR's meme that offseason was "we need to get tougher as team." Never mind that the team had just gone toe-to-toe with the big bad Bruins and kicked the **** out of "tough" guys like Ward and Chara, etc. That team didn't get knocked out of the postseason because they weren't physical enough. They lost because didn't have anything left after two seven-game series and Crosby and Malkin turned it into a track meet.

Hence, I repeat the assertion that JR doesn't have a clue about defensemen. Forwards, he clearly knows.

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05-08-2013, 09:57 AM
  #153
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I wasn't on this particular board at that time, but the general opinion of the board I was on was that they were fine with Seidenberg walking for the amount of money he was asking for. If I'm not mistaken, once the Canes acquired AWard, that eliminated Seidenberg from further consideration, and he eventually had to take less than he wanted elsewhere.

Babchuk was/is terrible defensively. No in their right mind defends him in that regard.

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05-08-2013, 10:04 AM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Except he did turn out to be worth that, and anybody with half a brain and one working eye could reason that he was an improving, relatively young player whom the team could use a hell of a lot more than retread garbage like Ward and Corvo. This is not me being revisionist, it's saying what I felt at the time. It would be interesting to go back through threads from then and see what the board consensus was. Hmmmm....

Not saying Babs was great. He went to pieces in the playoffs that year. But he wasn't nearly as bad defensively as you are remembering.

Thinking back JR's meme that offseason was "we need to get tougher as team." Never mind that the team had just gone toe-to-toe with the big bad Bruins and kicked the **** out of "tough" guys like Ward and Chara, etc. That team didn't get knocked out of the postseason because they weren't physical enough. They lost because didn't have anything left after two seven-game series and Crosby and Malkin turned it into a track meet.

Hence, I repeat the assertion that JR doesn't have a clue about defensemen. Forwards, he clearly knows.
He turned out to be worth that only after being paired with Chara. AWard looked great too being paired with Chara, remember. It is revisionist to say he should have been signed for that amount and term. He wasn't proven and his last minute signing with Florida underscored that point.

As for Babchuk, he was in fact as bad as I remember. His gap control was lousy, he constantly got on the wrong side of the puck, he misread plays and made too many mental mistakes. His weaknesses were somewhat camouflaged by Pitkanen, but he was a poor defender.

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05-08-2013, 10:15 AM
  #155
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Whatever, you see it your way, I'll see it mine. I'm not getting into an argument over something that happened four years ago. Maybe JR is in fact a great evaluator of D talent and has simply been unlucky. I won't rule it out.

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05-08-2013, 10:21 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by Roboturner913 View Post
Whatever, you see it your way, I'll see it mine. I'm not getting into an argument over something that happened four years ago. Maybe JR is in fact a great evaluator of D talent and has simply been unlucky. I won't rule it out.
I think as a former goaltender he has relied to heavily on the philosophy that Cam Ward can lift an average D corps. As myopic as that sounds, it's hard to believe it took an injury to Ward to get him to open his eyes.

The biggest issue in terms of D is that JR swings to extremes. A largely defensive group, without a really good PMD, won the Cup but he has since gotten enamored with PMD's and physical D's who are 2nd and 3rd pair guys.

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05-08-2013, 10:22 AM
  #157
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Nobody is piming JR as simply unlucky but 29 other GMs passed on Seidenberg's demands. When he finally lowered them, the market was empty with suitors. Regardless of opinion these are the facts. i dont rememebr anyone saying we should have paid the asking prices for Allen or Seidenberg even though we needed players like them.

In terms of Babchuk, he was terrible other than his booming shot which didnt always get thru. Heck Calgary paid the guy big money to watch from the press box half the time.

hindsight is always 20/20.

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05-08-2013, 10:24 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by StormCast View Post

The biggest issue in terms of D is that JR swings to extremes. A largely defensive group, without a really good PMD, won the Cup but he has since gotten enamored with PMD's and physical D's who are 2nd and 3rd pair guys.
Agreed. We have an issue putting together a diverse group that compliment one another. Its like fighting a war with only the infantry.

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05-08-2013, 10:35 AM
  #159
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Originally Posted by Anton Dubinchuk View Post
If St. Louis lets Jackman go he's my #1 target, but (being completely detached from the situation) I can't imagine they'd ever let Jackman walk.

He would've been my pick for captain over Backes, the man is incredible. We sign him without any serious subtractions and we're a Cup contender. I love the man (can you tell? ).

Dream lineup:

Tlusty - Staal - Semin
Kid/acquired for McBain+ - Staal - Ruutu
Skinner - Monahan - Dwyer
Blanchard - Welsh - Torres

Faulk - Gleason
Jackman - Murphy
Harrison - Pitkanen (Bellemore to start the year if Pitkanen isn't ready)

Ward
Ellis

Our D goes from Charmin soft to pretty difficult to play against with Gleason, Harrison, Jackman, and potentially Bellemore.
This is exactly what happened in 09-10 and I don't want to see happen again: a swing from too many puck-moving defensemen to not enough. In this scenario our puckmovers are Faulk, a fragile Pitkanen and a rookie in Murphy. Meanwhile the rest of the D are all one-way defensive defensemen--if Jackman is anywhere as bad at passing as Gleason/Harrison that team will be in trouble. Tough to play against? They'll hit, but I'm sure they'll spend a lot of time camped in their own end. It's a better D than this year, but is it really better than 11-12 when this team also sucked defensively with the great Bryan Allen here? Essentially it's the same D as that season with Allen replaced with Jackman and McBain replaced with Murphy.

Here's a great idea and one that JR has yet to explore: having two-way defensemen who are not total liabilities at either offense or defense. The only players in that defense who can even be remotely described as such are Faulk and Pitkanen.

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05-08-2013, 10:43 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by faulkingdynamic View Post
i dont rememebr anyone saying we should have paid the asking prices for Allen or Seidenberg even though we needed players like them.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=33

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05-08-2013, 10:54 AM
  #161
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Originally Posted by faulkingdynamic View Post
Agreed. We have an issue putting together a diverse group that compliment one another. Its like fighting a war with only the infantry.
We've had one season with a diverse and balanced defensive group in the past however many years. They made the conference finals.

Could argue that the 06 cup team was pretty well balanced as well, with Kaberle, Tverdovsky (when he was healthy), and Hedican all being productive offensively from the back end. All balanced by guys like Commie, Ward, Wallin, and Wesley providing some defensive help on the back end.

The down side is the following seasons Kaberle had surgery which killed his effectiveness, Hedican's offense slowed down big time as he aged, and Tverdovsky's injuries kept him from being an NHLer beyond that one season with us.

It went from a balanced (though still favoring defense) defense, to strictly defensive until Corvo came in, Babchuk developed, Seidenberg developed, and we acquired Pitkanen. Corvo and the Anton were all offense, Seids and Pitkanen balanced dmen. Wallin and Gleason the muscle on the back end. And that's still a much softer group then 06.

Since then, there's been no balance, it's oriented FAR too much towards offense. We need one or two good defense first or two-way guys to add to Gleason and Harrison. From a production standpoint the team should be fine next season if it rolls Pitkanen, MAB (if re-signed), and Murphy.

Pity that Ian White was such a bust here on and off the ice, because he'd be a good #4 to compliment Pitkanen on our 2nd pairing next season. Would have no issues with adding say Regehr or Scuderi instead with more of a defense first focus needed on this blueline as it's built currently.

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Originally Posted by Amaxing Joni Jokel View Post

Yep, a few of us were onboard with that line of thought. Not sure what the **** I was thinking saying Carson could become a #4 guy eventually, but even then I saw the stupidity of not re-signing Seids.


Last edited by DaveG: 05-08-2013 at 11:17 AM.
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05-08-2013, 11:23 AM
  #162
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Balance isn't really the problem here. The problem is talent.

McBain, Bergeron, Sanguinetti, Faulk and Pitkanen are all offensive defensemen. Gleason and Harrison are defensive defensemen. The problem, IMO, isn't an overload on one side or the other, but the fact that our defensemen are simply aren't talented. Being offensive doesn't preclude being good defensively, nor does 'grit' or what have you preclude being offensive.

McBain, Bergeron, Sanguinetti and Harrison are all 3rd pairing at best. That isn't because they are offensively or defensively oriented, it's because their games are seriously flawed in some way. If we replaced McBain with a less offensive, more defensive version of a similar talent level, we would still have a terrible defense because of the lack of talent. We need at least 1 more top-4 defender to even ice a competent when healthy squad. Having a good mix can act as a band aid for a limited time, but it doesn't fix the real problem of talent.

Having said that, if we can't get a another top-4 defender this offseason, then getting a good mix is the next best thing. At the very least, I want all the defenders on the same page at all times, and it never looked like that (least of all during the breakout). My problem is that JR seems to think that the lack of a balanced lineup is the problem, and fixing that is the solution to our defensive woes rather than a band aid on the real problem.

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05-08-2013, 11:29 AM
  #163
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I stand corrected.

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05-08-2013, 11:32 AM
  #164
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I stand corrected.
This is a learning moment for you. Adding "in their right mind" to your statement would have covered your bases.

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05-08-2013, 11:45 AM
  #165
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Balance isn't really the problem here. The problem is talent.

McBain, Bergeron, Sanguinetti, Faulk and Pitkanen are all offensive defensemen. Gleason and Harrison are defensive defensemen. The problem, IMO, isn't an overload on one side or the other, but the fact that our defensemen are simply aren't talented. Being offensive doesn't preclude being good defensively, nor does 'grit' or what have you preclude being offensive.

McBain, Bergeron, Sanguinetti and Harrison are all 3rd pairing at best. That isn't because they are offensively or defensively oriented, it's because their games are seriously flawed in some way. If we replaced McBain with a less offensive, more defensive version of a similar talent level, we would still have a terrible defense because of the lack of talent. We need at least 1 more top-4 defender to even ice a competent when healthy squad. Having a good mix can act as a band aid for a limited time, but it doesn't fix the real problem of talent.

Having said that, if we can't get a another top-4 defender this offseason, then getting a good mix is the next best thing. At the very least, I want all the defenders on the same page at all times, and it never looked like that (least of all during the breakout). My problem is that JR seems to think that the lack of a balanced lineup is the problem, and fixing that is the solution to our defensive woes rather than a band aid on the real problem.
See that's still not even close to a balanced defense to me. Pitkanen and Faulk are the two-way dmen in that equation but Joni's banged up so often he might as well not be a part of the equation.

I won't disagree with you that we're lacking talent on D, that's the truly frustrating part. McBain had everything in him to become a solid top 4 guy... but he apparently doesn't take offseason training very seriously as indicated by coming into camp in poor shape and having to work his way back up from not being even a top 6 dman the past 2 years. Corvo's well past "best by" date, yet apparently JR "likes our group" instead of going after someone actually competent like say Roszival for the same ****ing money.

I'll flat out say it, Sangs and/or Bergeron should be looked at as #6 options at best, maybe #7 with Sangs back in Charlotte to start next season and be available as first callup. He beats the hell out of having Gragnani there at least.



But balance is a huge issue. Allen isn't much of a dman anymore, wasn't when we acquired him, yet the element that he added to the defense was absolutely vital for making it a much better group then what we had working this past season. It's that element that we were flat out missing from the team this year. Yes, adding Regehr would be adding talent level to the blueline, but the fact that he brings something none of the other guys he'd be replacing could is also vital.

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05-08-2013, 12:53 PM
  #166
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Do you feel your trumpeting of a Pitkanen-Carson pairing in the same thread at all undoes your pro dennis seidenberg position?

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05-08-2013, 01:00 PM
  #167
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See that's still not even close to a balanced defense to me. Pitkanen and Faulk are the two-way dmen in that equation but Joni's banged up so often he might as well not be a part of the equation.

I won't disagree with you that we're lacking talent on D, that's the truly frustrating part. McBain had everything in him to become a solid top 4 guy... but he apparently doesn't take offseason training very seriously as indicated by coming into camp in poor shape and having to work his way back up from not being even a top 6 dman the past 2 years. Corvo's well past "best by" date, yet apparently JR "likes our group" instead of going after someone actually competent like say Roszival for the same ****ing money.

I'll flat out say it, Sangs and/or Bergeron should be looked at as #6 options at best, maybe #7 with Sangs back in Charlotte to start next season and be available as first callup. He beats the hell out of having Gragnani there at least.

But balance is a huge issue. Allen isn't much of a dman anymore, wasn't when we acquired him, yet the element that he added to the defense was absolutely vital for making it a much better group then what we had working this past season. It's that element that we were flat out missing from the team this year. Yes, adding Regehr would be adding talent level to the blueline, but the fact that he brings something none of the other guys he'd be replacing could is also vital.
It's all about roles.

You need a pair that can hold their own against the other teams best.

A pair that can play against a 2nd line and play in all 3 zones.

And a pair that can play in the offensive zone and is just good enough to not get torched by 3rd and 4th lines.

Gleason - Someone like we had in Allen
Pitkanen-Faulk
Harrison-Murphy

You leave the heavy defensive lifting to Gleason/X, you let Pitkanen/Faulk play 26 minutes a game, and you cherry pick some spots for Harrison-Murphy.

(it is vital that Mr. X in this scenario is not Joe Corvo)

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05-08-2013, 05:22 PM
  #168
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I'm still not sure how we can fit in a guy like Hainsey into the mix, but he would be ideal IMO. IIRC, he played the top pairing shutdown role with Bogosian and did exceptionally well, especially against us. Just call it the "Tim Brent factor" when we scout someone hard after putting up a phenomenal performance in front of our crowd, in which case he did after registering 4 or so blocked shots.

Either that or the "Southeast factor". Getting easy scouting sessions from simply watching the game, i.e. Semin, Whitney, Hedican, Stillman, MAB, Wallace, Dadonov, Allen, Cullen, etc. In fact, Winnipeg is the only other franchise that hasn't proved the Southeast factor successful, (see Stewart )and it's about time we take a flyer on Hainsey.

With all this said, I'm not sure he doesnt resign with the Jets. Trouba's probably NHL ready, but Hainsey's presence is probably needed for a team that will spend to the cap.

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05-09-2013, 12:33 PM
  #169
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This D core needs to change completely! So does the team make up!

What I propose:

FWD...3 balanced scoring lines and more size with Clowe
Jiri Tlusty ($1.600m) / Eric Staal ($8.250m) / Alexander Semin ($7.000m)
Tuomo Ruutu ($4.750m) / Jordan Staal ($6.000m) / Ryane Clowe ($3.625m)
Jeff Skinner ($5.725m) / Riley Nash ($0.735m) / 5TH OVERALL PICK FWD
Nicolas Blanchard ($0.538m) /Patrick Dwyer ($0.900m) / Drayson Bowman ($0.600m) /
Kevin Westgarth ($0.725m) /
DEFENSEMEN...revamped completely
Justin Faulk ($0.900m) / Tim Gleason ($4.000m)
Grant Clitsome ($1.250m) / Douglas Murray ($2.500m)
Andrew Ference ($2.500m) / Jay Harrison ($1.500m)
GOALTENDERS
Cam Ward ($6.300m)
Justin Peters ($0.538m)


SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $60,960,000; BONUSES: $10,000
CAP SPACE (20-man roster): $3,350,000
Clowe wants 8 years $40M at least or a $5.0M cap hit.

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05-09-2013, 12:46 PM
  #170
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Clowe wants 8 years $40M at least or a $5.0M cap hit.
JR will only give that to him if he takes a NMC as well.

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05-09-2013, 01:01 PM
  #171
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outside of some obvious gaffe's, over the years jr is actually pretty solid at finding d - his limits with budget are usually the downfall. melichar and babs fit the low budget we were at. seids and allen out priced themselves. we are facing that again with any "rebuild" of the d. we dont have much to spend without sending money out, and that will limit us. i think thats why jr is setting us up by using allen's name repeatedly. he's looking for role players. we are hoping for better, hes telling us to not bother. we need a jackman or a komi, at reasonable prices. as usual, it'll be an interesting summer. he's promised changes, but isn't as well armed as he was last summer to get them done.

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05-09-2013, 01:21 PM
  #172
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Komisarek makes a lot of sense. Muller knows him and he will be very cheap as Toronto will still be paying him the $3.5 owed to him.

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05-09-2013, 01:45 PM
  #173
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Komisarek makes a lot of sense. Muller knows him and he will be very cheap as Toronto will still be paying him the $3.5 owed to him.
Sounds like a reclamation project that doesn't have much downside. Not dissimilar to getting Whitney after being bought out. Komi makes more sense to me than Hainsey, who's got good size and shot blocking ability but isn't physical at all.

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05-09-2013, 01:45 PM
  #174
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Personally, I remember watching the last 20 or so games of that season, and then the playoffs and thinking man this Seidenberg is looking really good. I was pretty shocked when they just let him walk.

He wasn't even asking for that much, considering he was essentially the #2 during those playoffs. Nic Wallin was making 1.8, Corvo 2.8, Kaberle 2.2 on the same team.
I find it hard to believe anyone watched Seidenberg in those playoffs and thought he played well. He was the only defenseman (beside Babchuk) to be scratched during that playoff run, and it wasn't because we so desperately needed Babchuk in the lineup.

One thing I remember about D-berg in that playoff run was his situational awareness. He had none. In a span of 3 or 4 games, he allowed the backdoor goal three separate times. Once, that's understandable. Twice is frustrating, but can be chalked up to bad luck. Three times in that short of a time shows either an inability or an unwillingness to learn from your mistakes.

He looked Sangunetti-esque on his defensive reads against Boston and Pittsburgh.

Seidenberg wasn't worth the money he was asking for at the time, and only when he was paired with Chara did he seem to put it all together. And since we don't have Chara (or anyone close), pining over a guy who would have essentially been Harrison for twice the money doesn't make a lot of sense.

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05-09-2013, 02:30 PM
  #175
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Problem with judging our players is that we are at best a mediocre team as a whole. Guys are asked to do thinks out of their comfort zone with little help here. Put guys like seids and jokinen on more confident teams with better depth and a clearer role and they thrive.

Many of the guys we don't think much of would shine on another team.

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