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KHL Expansion part II

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Old
07-04-2013, 01:32 PM
  #751
Sucrologist
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Originally Posted by J17 Vs Proclamation View Post
It is a ridiculous idea to place a team in London. Paris i imagine is equally absurd, though i am less educated in that regard.

There is no hockey culture in London. There is no market for it. People point to the population and finances available in the city and presume that is enough. There is no infrastructure of hockey in the city, there is no youth system of note in the city, there is no financial desire for hockey in the city. We don't have a single national team player capable of participating at the KHL level and don't have a youth system remotely near what is an absolute bare minimum standard for an elite level European pro hockey team.

It wouldn't make new hockey fans. A league entirely filled with imports playing in a foreign league in a market with no hockey interest is an absurd business and social venture.

KHL and Russian hockey should be focusing on developing and growing hockey in it's country rather than embarking on nonsensical dreams in fairy land markets.
There are more than 300k Russian-speaking people in London and lack of youth development system does not stop the league expansion (see Yugra, Donbass, Admiral).
If the league expands to Germany, Switzerland and Sweden, even a team in London will be able to lure new fans.
The KHL is on the path of becoming European league, there is no point to continue considering it as Russian league and stating that it should focus on development. If there was political will for it, the KHL would be a different league than it is now.
Anyways, London and Paris are not targets of the league. Gdansk is an initiative of Polish federation, Huttwil is a "Trojan horse" like Poprad, Medvescak is popular enough already, and only Milan could be "embarking on nonsensical dreams in fairy land markets", but we know about long history of hockey in this city.

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Old
07-04-2013, 02:15 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by Sucrologist View Post
There are more than 300k Russian-speaking people in London and lack of youth development system does not stop the league expansion (see Yugra, Donbass, Admiral).
If the league expands to Germany, Switzerland and Sweden, even a team in London will be able to lure new fans.
The KHL is on the path of becoming European league, there is no point to continue considering it as Russian league and stating that it should focus on development. If there was political will for it, the KHL would be a different league than it is now.
Anyways, London and Paris are not targets of the league. Gdansk is an initiative of Polish federation, Huttwil is a "Trojan horse" like Poprad, Medvescak is popular enough already, and only Milan could be "embarking on nonsensical dreams in fairy land markets", but we know about long history of hockey in this city.
Sweden, Switzerland and Germany have significant ice hockey leagues with a sizeable pool of talented players and clubs with rich history that draw fans. They also have very strong national teams who regularly participate in the top division.

Hockey in London barely exists. There is no significant domestic team located there, nor is there any strong youth movement relative to the rest of the country (and our youth infrastructure compared to other nations is poor). The interest and demand for the sport from natives is very low. I can absolutely assure you of this.

The team would have to be funded by the KHL or Russian investors. It would be filled entirely with imports and with basically no native youth products in the forseeable future being able to legitimate participate at the level. Zagreb has a well supported team in a significantly better league. There is no comparison.

The only reason London is ever mentioned is because of the sheer population and the disposable income within the city. As has been shown time and time and time again with sports development and investment, basic population and disposable income does not correlate with success. London may have a sizeable population of Russians, but that doesn't correlate to hockey demand especially in a City with so many alternative sources of entertainment.

The KHL is a Russian league in the sense that it is still largely based in Russia and financed by various Russian sources of capital. It clearly does have a "European" and bigger version going forward, but it doesn't mean one romantic investments in non-traditional market can be deemed anything other than absurd. I said Russian money should be invested in growing the sport within it's own borders, both from a youth development perspective and improving the overall KHL product (media etc etc) instead of friviliously throwing away capital at something that won't benefit them.

Millions invested in Russian hockey >>>>>>> Having a outpost KHL team in London.

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07-04-2013, 02:21 PM
  #753
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I wasn't around in the 50's, 60's, but I'm guessing Los Angeles would have been a fairy-tale market for hockey back then. Was there a youth system of hockey in Los Angeles in the 60's? I'd love for someone to tell me there was. If the KHL becomes, what it appears it wants to become, I can't see how London and Paris aren't at least considered.

The culture won't change if nothing happens. It's worth at least a try.

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07-05-2013, 10:28 AM
  #754
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Originally Posted by gammaraej View Post
Was there a youth system of hockey in Los Angeles in the 60's? I'd love for someone to tell me there was. If the KHL becomes, what it appears it wants to become, I can't see how London and Paris aren't at least considered.
It took Gretzky and Beckham to change the status of hockey and soccer in Los Angeles.

Also, youth and professional sports are two completely different things in North America.

Actually it did more harm than good for MLS (Major League Soccer) that the soccer was popular among kids, women and teens.

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07-10-2013, 07:47 PM
  #755
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Would actually love to see hockey in Beijing.

I miss hockey a lot and I would attend as many games as possible, no doubt about it. Even if I knew the Chinese team would lose every single game that season.

And since Beijing is such a huge city, must be one of the biggest in the world right? And there are a lot of foreigners, and some of them I do believe also miss hockey a lot.

Also as I have understood Asian culture, if they would market this team as more of a American or Canadian team, Chinese people would attend the games in masses. This is just my opinion of course, but I do believe that Chinese people are somewhat obsessed with American things, music, films/movies and sports.

So either try to just make a normal hockey team of the best players they can find in China, let's say they will use 5 Chinese players that are of course not at KHL level, but <good enough> to be on the 4th line. And then imports from the rest of the world.

Or try to make it an 'American' team, with most of the team being American(preferably) and then like the first option either try to fill a line with the very best Chinese players or keep the whole team American.

And also that they make the overall feeling of the arena and the game more American-like. Play American songs and such, and make it feel like it's a random game from the AHL/NHL.

I think 'the American way' is the best way to go. To make it more like an 'attraction' at first.

Also worth mentioning is that there lives a whole lot of Koreans here in Beijing, there are two parts of Beijing that are called Korea-towns. So to bring some Korean players could also work.

Anyone else here from Beijing or Shanghai in particular that would agree or disagree with me?


Ps. I'm not American at all, haha. Could seem like I'm a huge patriot or something but I am not, not even from that continent.

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Old
07-12-2013, 09:37 AM
  #756
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I think it's great news that Kovalchuk is coming home. Great to really cement that the KHL is the future and that every other so called pro-league in europe gives way to the big league. Bring a team to Sweden please Mr. Medvedev, or whoever holds the strings. I'll cheer for Jokerit as it is right now.

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07-12-2013, 10:57 AM
  #757
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I think it's great news that Kovalchuk is coming home. Great to really cement that the KHL is the future and that every other so called pro-league in europe gives way to the big league. Bring a team to Sweden please Mr. Medvedev, or whoever holds the strings. I'll cheer for Jokerit as it is right now.
They almost got a team in sweden in the past, but the swedish federation blocked the move. It is not only up to Medvedev...

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07-12-2013, 06:56 PM
  #758
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They almost got a team in sweden in the past, but the swedish federation blocked the move. It is not only up to Medvedev...
Almost is a VERY strong word considering they were not close at all.

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Old
07-12-2013, 07:06 PM
  #759
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They almost got a team in sweden in the past, but the swedish federation blocked the move. It is not only up to Medvedev...
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Almost is a VERY strong word considering they were not close at all.
What are you kidding me? You think what the swedish federation wants or not would hold up in court? Who do you think they are, mommy and daddy? Please explain to me how they would manage to stop grown people, businesses at that, from playing in whatever league they want.

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Old
07-12-2013, 07:20 PM
  #760
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What are you kidding me? You think what the swedish federation wants or not would hold up in court? Who do you think they are, mommy and daddy? Please explain to me how they would manage to stop grown people, businesses at that, from playing in whatever league they want.
Not sure whos quote you are replying to with that post. Regardless of which post you're replying to it makes little sense.

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Old
07-12-2013, 08:24 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Not sure whos quote you are replying to with that post. Regardless of which post you're replying to it makes little sense.
This aint the Soviet Union you know. One cant just close cases on made up tecnicalities. Who i replied to was very clear, and to just proclaim something to be "of little sense" and therefore think that a case is closed, is a very pre-Gorbachev way of taking things for granted.

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07-12-2013, 08:35 PM
  #762
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
This aint the Soviet Union you know. One cant just close cases on made up tecnicalities. Who i replied to was very clear, and to just proclaim something to be "of little sense" and therefore think that a case is closed, is a very pre-Gorbachev way of taking things for granted.
Yeah and you wonder why people act rude to you in the swedish section. Really you don't understand it?

To reply to you, I'll quote this:
Quote:
Vote wasn't about that.

80% of members vote yes to explore the possibility of joining the KHL.
Explore = find out: if it could be done financial, if the SIHF would accept it and if it's "at all possible"
Basically "do we even bother with looking at KHL."

Then by one vote they voted yes on having another vote later, if the answer was that it would be possible to join the KHL. Basically "do we really want this"-vote.

The meeting was attended by 200 ppl, AIK has 20000+ members. It was a pointless vote and nothing that got people of the couch.
Yeah, AIK was really "close" to joining the KHL. Just another 50 vote rounds and 10 years of discussions away!

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Old
07-12-2013, 08:49 PM
  #763
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
What are you kidding me? You think what the swedish federation wants or not would hold up in court? Who do you think they are, mommy and daddy? Please explain to me how they would manage to stop grown people, businesses at that, from playing in whatever league they want.
It would be heavy handed, but they could wink wink nod nod and keep any player choosing to do that out of the National setup.

They do use some KHL players now, but the KHL hasn't put huge pressure or threatening pressure on the SHL. There could be a big response to this in terms of what they think about the KHL trying to usurp hockey audiences in Sweden, there also could be none at all. But to suggest they will ultimately sit on their hands might not be the case.

The NHL and KHL to date might take their talent, but they haven't attempted to damage their bottom line in this kind of way.

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07-16-2013, 07:37 AM
  #764
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Without reading back through all 31 pages (I apologize if it's already been discussed), are there any plans to form a future KHL team in Kyiv? It seems like there would be a good natural rivalry there with Donbass.

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07-16-2013, 07:53 AM
  #765
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Without reading back through all 31 pages (I apologize if it's already been discussed), are there any plans to form a future KHL team in Kyiv? It seems like there would be a good natural rivalry there with Donbass.
Unfortunately nothing coherent. True, it makes so much sense to obtain a team in such a metropolis, but all Ukrainian hockey future, from the looks of it, currently hinges on once certain billionaire in Donetsk.

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07-16-2013, 07:54 AM
  #766
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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Without reading back through all 31 pages (I apologize if it's already been discussed), are there any plans to form a future KHL team in Kyiv? It seems like there would be a good natural rivalry there with Donbass.
well, Kiev was supposed to have a team (Budyvelnik) ahead of donbass, but Kolomeitsev entered opposition to the government and that was the end of the story. Another team (Berkut?) last year announced some sort of intentions, but it's been quite since.

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07-16-2013, 07:55 AM
  #767
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Originally Posted by Guy View Post
Without reading back through all 31 pages (I apologize if it's already been discussed), are there any plans to form a future KHL team in Kyiv? It seems like there would be a good natural rivalry there with Donbass.
I read no rumours. Yes, there was Budivelnik Kiev project a few yrs back, but failed.

KHL has 28 clubs, Jokerit is going to be 29th, league wants maximum of 32 clubs and their main goal is club/s from Germany, Sweden or Switzerland (2 spots) and on spot for russian club. So I dont see Kiev in KHL in foreseeable future.

"We have 28 clubs, Jokerit is 29th. League waits for Lada (RUS) and I think we will see 2 euro clubs from hockey countries. League will have maximum of 32 clubs," Medvedev said a few days earlier.

So no Kiev in next 3-5 yrs or maybe next 10 yrs. Ukraine does not have players to skate 2 teams and you can not have ukrainian team with all foreigners.

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07-16-2013, 08:18 AM
  #768
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And the drama continues:

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/arkisto/uutis...16.7.2013.html

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/sm-liiga/a...582564177.html

(Courtesy of Gaps) In a nutshell for all our foreign friends: the majority of the other SM-liiga teams want Jokerit out of the league now instead of after next season. Also, according to SM-liiga, Jokerit DO NOT have a binding contract with the KHL, and currently they don't have permission from SM-liiga to join another league because they did not ask for it.

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07-16-2013, 08:24 AM
  #769
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
And the drama continues:

http://www.sm-liiga.fi/arkisto/uutis...16.7.2013.html

http://www.iltasanomat.fi/sm-liiga/a...582564177.html

(Courtesy of Gaps) In a nutshell for all our foreign friends: the majority of the other SM-liiga teams want Jokerit out of the league now instead of after next season. Also, according to SM-liiga, Jokerit DO NOT have a binding contract with the KHL, and currently they don't have permission from SM-liiga to join another league because they did not ask for it.
at this point, who cares. let's see what happens a year from now.

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Old
07-16-2013, 08:33 AM
  #770
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As i understand. After Sochi contract between KHL and RHL terminates and KHL can absorb whatever whenever, because IIHF lose control?

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07-16-2013, 08:43 AM
  #771
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As i understand. After Sochi contract between KHL and RHL terminates and KHL can absorb whatever whenever, because IIHF lose control?
That would also mean they don't have to pay transfer fees to anyone in other leagues.

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07-16-2013, 08:46 AM
  #772
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Lets have a look at IIHF rules

Quote:
Rule 501 of IIHF Statutes and Bylaws

A club that wishes to play in a cross-border league and/or league of a Member National Association that is not the Member National Association in the country where the club is located must (1) obtain the permission of the Member National Association where the club is located (this Member National Association shall consult the respective national league regarding such); and (2) obtain the permission of the Member National Association of the country where the club’s future league is located.
http://www.iihf.com/fileadmin/user_u...and_Bylaws.pdf

So, Jokerit needs approval of federation, which shall consult it with SM-Liiga. Yes, SM-Liiga can say NO, but its statement is irrelevat. Approval is made by federation.

On the other hand, IIHF supports KHL´s expansion as Fasel said. It seems there is a deal among KHL/IIHF.

All in All, SM-Liiga can do nothing, the league does not have legal backround to block Jokerit from joining KHL. Yes, Jokerit can pay fine for breaking Shareholders Agreement, thats all.

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07-16-2013, 09:29 AM
  #773
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"Consult with the league" does not mean a telephone conference with Kummola, Harkimo and Vuorinen (SM-Liiga managing director, has no authority on the matter) and simply informing the latter. It'll most likely result in fines though, but they could end up being such extensive that it will heavily impact Jokerit operations not only in SM-Liiga but KHL(since as Rotenberg said, they won't be sponsoring the team).

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Old
07-16-2013, 09:50 AM
  #774
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That's not a surprise that SM-liiga teams are crying and complaining behind the curtains. They are so ******** and are trying to hurt Jokerit as much as possible. I'm so glad to leave that clown-show SM-liiga management and league behind next season.

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07-16-2013, 10:03 AM
  #775
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"Consult with the league" does not mean a telephone conference with Kummola, Harkimo and Vuorinen (SM-Liiga managing director, has no authority on the matter) and simply informing the latter. It'll most likely result in fines though, but they could end up being such extensive that it will heavily impact Jokerit operations not only in SM-Liiga but KHL(since as Rotenberg said, they won't be sponsoring the team).
I wrote this many times, I am sure you read it, so I dont understand why you write the same *** all the time.

You wrote that "Jokerit DO NOT have a binding contract with the KHL" (you quoted Gaps). Jokerit did not apply/enter to KHL, federation did not approve Jokerit leaving SM-Liiga and joining KHL. What should be disccussed with SM-Liiga? The idea that Jokerit wants to apply/enter to KHL next year? If Jokerit sends an application to KHL, SM-Liiga or Federation can discuss/consult/approve it. Not now when we talk about media statements of Harkimo. Hope my explanation is good enough you to get it and not talk about THIS again and again.

I have an experiance with svk/cz clubs joining KHL. I can tell you that svk/cz clubs were against the idea Slovan/Lev joining KHL, they made the same PR-move as SM-Liiga has been doing now. Clubs got paid (call it fine for breaking Shareholders Agreement if you want) and everyone was happy.

My personal point of view, of course I have no evidence for it. Why the hell did Harkimo announce joining KHL a year before it happens? Why not in January-March 2014? IMO, KHL/Harkimo knew that SM-Liiga clubs have problem with it, and we can see that they have problem, so KHL/Harkimo needed time to solve this problem. It would be impossible to solve it within period March-June 2014 because you need much more time for it. Year or 8-9 months is enough. KHL does not need "Lev Hradec" case one more time. Lev Hradec wanted to join KHL, applied but czech federation (clubs) did not approve the move, so Lev Hradec moved to slovak city of Poprad next week or so, applied to KHL as slovak club, but slovak federation (clubs) did not approve it again. Therefore we did not have Lev Hradec or Lev Poprad in 10/11 season. Lev Poprad joined KHL in 11/12, so the entrance was postponed for one season. KHL can not afford to risk it anymore. Very simple, if you follow KHL expansion. Btw, Jokerit=KHL is done deal, not legally yet but it is matter of time.

I have to say you are naive if you really think following, "It'll most likely result in fines though, but they could end up being such extensive that it will heavily impact Jokerit operations not only in SM-Liiga but KHL(since as Rotenberg said, they won't be sponsoring the team)"

Man, if there is a fine which can not by paid by Jokerit or finnish sponsors, Gazprom or whoever has no problem to pay it. Dont worry and enjoy that your team is joining KHL.


Last edited by vorky: 07-16-2013 at 10:11 AM.
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