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Did Gretzky benefit from a weak division?

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Old
05-02-2005, 10:33 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by reckoning
16 goals, 26 assists. What`s your point?

In the 1977 finals that you claim Lafleur singlehandedly won ( i guess Dryden only giving up 6 goals in 4 games had nothing to do with it), how many of Lafleur`s points were goals?

The answer--- two.

Oh, another interesting fact about the `77 playoffs. In Game 1 of the quarter-finals against St. Louis Montreal won 7-2. Lafleur had 6 points (3 goals, 3 assists). But wait!!!! Lafleur apparently never played in games once Montreal built up a big lead. So how could he get 6 points in a 7-2 blowout if he never got any ice time in blowouts?
Wow just one game makes up for gretzkys hundreds of games? By the way post your link cuz I aint believing a damn thing you say.

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05-02-2005, 10:37 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
No because the western teams were mostly offensive minded whereas the eastern ones were defensive (much more) and in essence much tougher to play against.
Why does the fact the Gretzky is undeniably the greatest ever bother you so much? You seem to be in every Gretzky thread unsucessfully trying to peddle your opinions

Is it because of the fact that the Habs own every record known to hockey, and yet the best player ever never played for Montreal, and wasnt even from Quebec?!?

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05-02-2005, 10:56 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Wow just one game makes up for gretzkys hundreds of games? By the way post your link cuz I aint believing a damn thing you say.
I didn`t find them on the Internet. The St. Louis game is listed in any edition of the NHL Official Guide And Record Book, under all the players who have scored six points in a playoff game. The Gretzky stats from the Finals are from the summaries which were printed in the NHL Stanley Cup Fact Guide.

The point is yes, Gretzky had a few games where he put up big numbers in blowouts, just like Lemieux, Esposito and even Lafleur did from time to time. You and Chooch are acting like when the games got close against good teams Gretzky disappeared and didn`t produce, and that`s simply not the case; those four final series being a prime example.

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05-02-2005, 11:01 PM
  #79
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Guy had to face much tougher opposition during his cup wins and he didnt have no bodyguards and had to play against teams like Boston and PHilly and still dominiated.

Here are both team's opposition and the number of goals their opposition had allowed in those years.


Montreal Canadiens:

1975-76

Chicago 261 GA
NYI 190 GA
Philly 209 GA
AVG: 220 GA


1976-77

St Louis 276 GA
NYI 193 GA
Boston 240 GA
AVG: 236 GA

1977-78

Detroit 266 GA
Toronto 237 GA
Boston 218 GA
240 GA

1978-79

Toronto 252 GA
Boston 270 GA
NYR 292 GA
AVG: 271 GA


Edmonton Oilers



1983-84:

Winnipeg: 374 GA
Calgary: 314 GA
MinnesotaL 344 GA
NYI: 269 GA
AVG: 325 GA


1984-85:

LA 326 GA
Winnipeg 332 GA
Chicago 299 GA
Philly 241 GA
AVG: 300 GA

1986-87:

LA 341
Winnipeg 271
Detroit 274
Philly- 245
AVG: 283 GA

1987-88:

Winnipeg 310
Calgary 305
Detroit 269
Boson 251

284 GA


Montreal Canadiens oppositions average number of GA of all the teams faced: 242
Edmonton Oilers opposition's average number of GA of all the teams faced: 298

Gretzky: 77 GP 47 Goals
Lafleur: 58 GP 36 Goals

Goals per game:

Gretzky- 0.61
Lafleur- 0.62

Wow Lafleur had a higher goals per game vs. much better defensive teams and without some body guard protecting his carcus!

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05-02-2005, 11:03 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Wow Lafleur had a higher goals per game vs. much better defensive teams and without some body guard protecting his carcus!
Why do you keep ignoring assists?

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05-02-2005, 11:07 PM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Cawz
Why do you keep ignoring assists?
Why do you keep ignoring the goals? Gretzky was the better playmaker I'll give you that but Lafleur was a winger not a centerman. Center's are likely to get much more assists then wingers. And Lafleur didnt have the best one timer guy on his team either in Kurri. Also Lafleur didnt go behind the net every second and set someone up. He was a winger and the best playmaking right winger ever IMO. Howe was close but I've never seen him play in his prime so I'll stick with Guy.

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05-02-2005, 11:10 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by reckoning
I didn`t find them on the Internet. The St. Louis game is listed in any edition of the NHL Official Guide And Record Book, under all the players who have scored six points in a playoff game. The Gretzky stats from the Finals are from the summaries which were printed in the NHL Stanley Cup Fact Guide.

The point is yes, Gretzky had a few games where he put up big numbers in blowouts, just like Lemieux, Esposito and even Lafleur did from time to time. You and Chooch are acting like when the games got close against good teams Gretzky disappeared and didn`t produce, and that`s simply not the case; those four final series being a prime example.
I believe you. I'm sure Guy did get 3 goals and 3 assists that one night. But thats just that... one night. Maybe 5 nights but not even close to the number of blowouts Wayne would pad his stats in.

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05-02-2005, 11:15 PM
  #83
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I really could care less about whether Gretzky played in a weaker division (as some claim), or if he put up points in blowouts, or if he was -25 on a really, really terrible LA Kings team in 1994, or any of the irrelevant stats that some have posted. Sit back and reflect on his greatness, the fact that he set records that will likely never be beaten, and did things on the ice that nobody has ever been able to come close to doing.

The guy scored over 200 points four times. Nobody in the history of hockey has come close. The guy scored 50 goals in 39 games. (And the last five of those 50 came against - surprise - Philly, an Eastern Conference foe). He did things several times over that nobody else has ever done. 92 goals in 1982. I think only seven or eight players have reached 70 goals. 163 assists in 1986? Only six players in league history have cleared 150 points, and I think Wayne and Lemieux are the only ones to clear 160. I know some people on here like to discount stats (at least when it works against their arguments), but these are truly remarkable. He thought the game and saw the game at a level unlike anyone in the history of the game. While others, (such as Bernie Federko) would occasionally go behind the net to make a play, Wayne was the first to do it on a consistent basis. He could seemingly think two steps ahead of anyone else. He could see the little things that nobody else could, and was a master at banking the puck in off a goalie or an opposing defenceman into the net. (Remember his third goal in Game 7 versus the Leafs in 1993? He did that many times).

The Smythe Division was the strongest division in hockey in the mid to late 1980s. Ask any GM, coach, player, referee, broadcaster or print reporter from the NHL at that time which division was the best in the mid-to-late 1980s, and the vast majority would say the Smythe. Edmonton produced five Cup champions. Calgary won a Cup, and would have likely won it once or twice more if not for the Oilers. (The Flames were more talented than the Habs in 1986, but ran into a hot goaltender). There were a couple years when Winnipeg was probably one of the top five teams in the league, and most years they would have creamed anyone that came out of the Norris. (Which was a weaker division, but the Oilers only played them three times a year, and there were several teams in the Wales Conference as bad as the worst in the Norris.) Heck, there were probably a few years when the Canucks were one of the 10 best teams in the league, but when you have to play 16 total games, it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that a sub .500 record is in the cards. Gretzky's numbers were reflective of just how truly brilliant he was, not the number of games he played against the Kings, not how many points he put up in blowouts, or any of the useless details that have polluted these threads for weeks. Sure, he had incredible talent around him, but so did Esposito, Howe, Bobby Hull/Mikita, Richard/Beliveau (they were together for eight years), Beliveau, Bossy/Trottier, Lemieux and Lafleur, and they're all top 25 players in NHL history.

Why do we have to keep bringing up threads like these? To the moderators: please, close this thread, and any thread like it. This is becoming as ridiculous as those bloody Crosby polls, or the Edmonton vs. Calgary polls last year. (Or Papa Bear's comparison threads in the NHL section). I'm sick of seeing these threads where all you get is people arguing in circles. If you have new facts to provide, bring them. But I haven't seen fresh facts in any of these threads for days, only trolling. (Put this warning under the one about criticizing respected, volunteer moderators in a public forum). This is my favourite part of the discussion board, but I don't think I'm the only one getting a headache from the two people who have hijacked this section.

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05-02-2005, 11:16 PM
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Why do you keep ignoring the goals?
When did I ignore goals?

Ok, I'll give you that Guy had more goals per game for the portion of teams / games you selected which support your opinions if you'll give me that Wayne has more goals, period.

And for a centerman, thats quite a feat.

You didnt answer why youre so stubbornly against Gretzky.

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05-02-2005, 11:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by Cawz
When did I ignore goals?

Ok, I'll give you that Guy had more goals per game for the portion of teams / games you selected which support your opinions if you'll give me that Wayne has more goals, period.

And for a centerman, thats quite a feat.

You didnt answer why youre so stubbornly against Gretzky.
I'm not against Wayne. If I was I wouldn't have said he's the best playmaker ever. Just trying to prove that in the playoffs Lafleur and Gretzky were much closer then people think.

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05-02-2005, 11:43 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
I'm not against Wayne. If I was I wouldn't have said he's the best playmaker ever. Just trying to prove that in the playoffs Lafleur and Gretzky were much closer then people think.
What do you consider close?

Wayne's playoff pt/gm = 1.84 and Guy's playoff pt/gm = 1.05. Fedorov in the considerably less offensive 90's early 00's has a playoff pt/gm of 1.01.

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05-02-2005, 11:48 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by chooch
No surprise there. Kind of like when Denis Savard (29 points in 15 games in the 85 playoffs) comes to the East is not even dressed for the final games of the playoffs by the Habs.

I remember those 8-4 "playoff"games of Oilers v. Chicago the great Bannerman in nets or something and 99 scoring his 5th point with 10 seconds left.
umm are you comparing Denis Savard in 1985 with Denis Savard in 1993?

not exactly back to back years.

he was a PPG player in the playoffs his last year in Chicago and his first year in Montreal, not a magic overnight disappearing act. in fact he played in all of Montreals playoff games in 1991 and again in 1992, where he led the team in playoff scoring. he wasn't the same player in 1993 he was at age 22 or whatever in 1985

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05-02-2005, 11:52 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by norrisnick
What do you consider close?

Wayne's playoff pt/gm = 1.84 and Guy's playoff pt/gm = 1.05. Fedorov in the considerably less offensive 90's early 00's has a playoff pt/gm of 1.01.
Lafleur had a lot of problems that really slowed him down after 1981.

1- Accident that nearly killed him in 81
2- No bodyguard like Wayne
3- Smoking 2 packs a day
4- Drinking problem
5- A coach that was rarely playing him (Lemaire
6- And lack of great teammates after 81.

Wayne never had those problems, hung out at centre looking for cheap points, had much better offensive teammates, didnt have no drinking or smoking problem, and always had great teammates and played in a much more offensive era and against weaker competition in the playoffs. If you look at their 5 best playoffs and look at the goals per game Lafleur beats Gretzky. In their primes they were really really close but those 6 things I listed really slowed Guy down. You honestly believe a healthy Lafleur would score only 1 or 2 goals in the final 35 (or more) playoff games?

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05-02-2005, 11:54 PM
  #89
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By the way who was the better one on one player? Who was the better stickhandler? Who was better on breakaways? Who was the better and faster skater? Who was more clutch? Who didnt have a bodyguard for most of his career? Who didnt hang out at centre waiting for passes? Who didnt win the art ross trophy with a freakin minus 25? Who wasnt apart of the best offensive team ever? Who didnt score on every chance he got in blowouts? Pretty sure the answer to all those question's is Lafleur.

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05-02-2005, 11:59 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by NYIsles1
How was this difference between conferences washed out thirteen years later in 1980 when Chicago was still the only other Western Conference team that even qualified for a final before Minnesota in 1981?

Maybe you should review the Flames history because they were hardly a bad team in Atlanta.

http://www.sportsecyclopedia.com/nhl/atlflames/aflames.html

1978/79: The Flames would finish in last place in the 4-team Patrick Division. However, the Flames were not an ordinary last place team, nor was their season ruined. In fact with a 41-31-8 record the Flames would reach 90 points for the first time in franchise history while making the playoffs for the 5th straight season.

What they were is a respectable team that made the playoffs. What did take them to the next level was the conference playoff format when they moved to Calgary against several unproven franchises not on the same level as the competition from the East in that era, which is no knock on the Flames.

Would those Flames teams become a contending Eastern Conference team with the players you mentioned later on... It's hard to say but it's doubtful they would have been in a situtation where you knew the winner of Calgary-Edmonton was going to the finals from the West.


Whee did I write Gretzky or the Oilers got off easy? What I did write is the
ice-surface to this day helps the Edmonton Oilers and benefited the style of hockey the 80's Oilers played. The travel difference is something that hurt the Westen Conference teams.

I never meant to imply they were a bad (in the sense of not playoff worthy, I meant they weren't an elite team something they later became) team in Atlanta. they reached 90 points ONCE and lost in the playoffs that year to an 81 point Maple Leaf team

They then made the semifinals their first year in Calgary, playing under a schedule that should have neither benefited or hurt them geographically

I happen to believe that the Flames (and yes I'm a homer) built such a solid team in the 1980s that they would have competed East or West, and if anything suffered being behind Edmonton--Alberta teams did win cups 6 years out of 7 afterall--representing their conference 8 years running (weak conference perhaps, division I don't agree). surely even if the Eastern teams were 'tired' they could have won the odd time in the finals?

in the late 70s or early 80s I concede the East was very strong, but by the mid 80s (when Gretzky was at his prime) there were always at least 2 very strong teams in that division, and often a 3rd with Winnipeg

anyways I suppose we'll agree to disagree as we aren't going to change any minds here

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05-03-2005, 12:01 AM
  #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Lafleur had a lot of problems that really slowed him down after 1981.

1- Accident that nearly killed him in 81
2- No bodyguard like Wayne
3- Smoking 2 packs a day
4- Drinking problem
5- A coach that was rarely playing him (Lemaire
6- And lack of great teammates after 81.

Wayne never had those problems, hung out at centre looking for cheap points, had much better offensive teammates, didnt have no drinking or smoking problem, and always had great teammates and played in a much more offensive era and against weaker competition in the playoffs. If you look at their 5 best playoffs and look at the goals per game Lafleur beats Gretzky. In their primes they were really really close but those 6 things I listed really slowed Guy down. You honestly believe a healthy Lafleur would score only 1 or 2 goals in the final 35 (or more) playoff games?

I think in any discussion of great players, players shouldn't be excused for their smoking or drinking problems (or their coaches not playing them for that matter). we're talking all time greats here

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05-03-2005, 12:02 AM
  #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
By the way who was the better one on one player? Who was the better stickhandler? Who was better on breakaways? Who was the better and faster skater? Who was more clutch? Who didnt have a bodyguard for most of his career? Who didnt hang out at centre waiting for passes? Who didnt win the art ross trophy with a freakin minus 25? Who wasnt apart of the best offensive team ever? Who didnt score on every chance he got in blowouts? Pretty sure the answer to all those question's is Lafleur.
Who is the greatest scorer in NHL history, regular season and playoffs? Pretty sure the answer to that question is Gretzky.

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05-03-2005, 12:08 AM
  #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Lafleur had a lot of problems that really slowed him down after 1981.

1- Accident that nearly killed him in 81
2- No bodyguard like Wayne
3- Smoking 2 packs a day
4- Drinking problem
5- A coach that was rarely playing him (Lemaire
6- And lack of great teammates after 81.

Wayne never had those problems, hung out at centre looking for cheap points, had much better offensive teammates, didnt have no drinking or smoking problem, and always had great teammates and played in a much more offensive era and against weaker competition in the playoffs. If you look at their 5 best playoffs and look at the goals per game Lafleur beats Gretzky. In their primes they were really really close but those 6 things I listed really slowed Guy down. You honestly believe a healthy Lafleur would score only 1 or 2 goals in the final 35 (or more) playoff games?
Half the things on your list are part of why Wayne is better. If Guy doesn't take care of his body that shows a lack of character. A flaw. Something that makes him less good. Theo Fleury would still be an allstar if he weren't a drug addict. That's the way the cookie crumbles.

Cherry picking stats for a comparison means nothing. Look at the entire package. Gretzky's King, Blues, and Ranger teams were nothing compared to his Oiler hayday. Guy himself played on the greatest team ever assembled. Both had stacked and less stacked teams.

One performed at a remarkably higher level. 99.

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05-03-2005, 12:16 AM
  #94
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The fact that LaFleur was a heavy smoker and drinker was his own damn fault. That Gretzky wasn't is to his own credit. Maybe there's a good reason Lafleur's coach didn't play him. Lafleur would have put up the same numbers if he had a bodyguard. Bodyguards are overrated in production. Gretzky didn't get hit because nobody could hit him. He was always one or two steps ahead of everyone, be it a physical defenceman or a goaltender. In 1993, despite missing half the season with a bad back, he led the playoffs in scoring, and took an overachieving Kings team to the Final.

Wayne played on some really crappy teams later in his career. The -25 in 1994 was more reflective of the fact that he was on a terrible team. Can't remember the last time an Art Ross winner was on such a terrible team. He was also on some pretty crappy teams in New York, and still managed to post respectable numbers. He put up nearly a point-per-game in his last season, despite several injuries and inferior linemates. He turned Adam Graves back into a 39-goal scorer.

By the way, why don't you ask LaFleur who he thinks the better player is? I think you'll get the same answer that everyone here is giving you: Gretzky. Is it as big of a gap as everyone thinks? No. LaFleur is, IMO, the third best RW of all-time, after Howe and Richard. Well-deserving of the farewell tour he received in 1991. He's one of the most exciting goal scorers ever, maybe the most exciting. But as for the better player, it's Wayne.

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05-03-2005, 06:17 AM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Lafleur had a lot of problems that really slowed him down after 1981.

1- Accident that nearly killed him in 81
2- No bodyguard like Wayne
3- Smoking 2 packs a day
4- Drinking problem
5- A coach that was rarely playing him (Lemaire
6- And lack of great teammates after 81.
1- The accident was totally Lafleur`s own fault; as close to being serious as it was, the only injury he sustained from it was a cut on his earlobe- nothing that would affect him hockey-wise

2- What bodyguard? I already pointed out in another thread that Semenko only played on Gretzky`s line about 10% of the time. McSorley didn`t join `til `85-`86. If you`re going to say that Gretzky had a bodyguard because there was an enforcer on Edmonton then everybody had a bodyguard because every team had at least one enforcer.

3/4- The smoking and drinking is a weak excuse, not only because it was his own fault but because it applies to lots of players. Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin smoked; didn`t slow them down. Drinking? Back then, everybody drank. What about Reggie Leach who often played hungover yet still had a higher playoff GPG than Lafleur?

5- Lemaire only coached Lafleur for 36 regular season games and 12 playoff games. Lafluer`s play was already on the decline before he took over, which isn`t knocking Guy; it happens to all players when they get older. Something to remember when somebody starts ranting about one bad year Gretzky had when he was 33. Btw, in L.A. Gretzky had a coach (Ftorek) who he didn`t agree with philosophically, but he didn`t decide to quit on his team because of it.

6- The Hab teams in the early 80s were actually very strong, it was always shoddy goaltending that killed them. Take any of those years in the early 80s, subtract Guy`s points from Montreal and subtract Wayne`s points from Edmonton and you`ll find Montreal has a lot more. So if Lafleur had bad teammates, Gretzky`s were worse

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05-03-2005, 07:43 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by reckoning
1- The accident was totally Lafleur`s own fault; as close to being serious as it was, the only injury he sustained from it was a cut on his earlobe- nothing that would affect him hockey-wise

2- What bodyguard? I already pointed out in another thread that Semenko only played on Gretzky`s line about 10% of the time. McSorley didn`t join `til `85-`86. If you`re going to say that Gretzky had a bodyguard because there was an enforcer on Edmonton then everybody had a bodyguard because every team had at least one enforcer.

3/4- The smoking and drinking is a weak excuse, not only because it was his own fault but because it applies to lots of players. Mike Bossy and Denis Potvin smoked; didn`t slow them down. Drinking? Back then, everybody drank. What about Reggie Leach who often played hungover yet still had a higher playoff GPG than Lafleur?

5- Lemaire only coached Lafleur for 36 regular season games and 12 playoff games. Lafluer`s play was already on the decline before he took over, which isn`t knocking Guy; it happens to all players when they get older. Something to remember when somebody starts ranting about one bad year Gretzky had when he was 33. Btw, in L.A. Gretzky had a coach (Ftorek) who he didn`t agree with philosophically, but he didn`t decide to quit on his team because of it.

6- The Hab teams in the early 80s were actually very strong, it was always shoddy goaltending that killed them. Take any of those years in the early 80s, subtract Guy`s points from Montreal and subtract Wayne`s points from Edmonton and you`ll find Montreal has a lot more. So if Lafleur had bad teammates, Gretzky`s were worse
So professor tell me.. tell me what could've possibly slowed Lafleur down from a 130 point man to a 70 point one of the accident and smoking didnt affect him at all?

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05-03-2005, 11:39 AM
  #97
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
So professor tell me.. tell me what could've possibly slowed Lafleur down from a 130 point man to a 70 point one of the accident and smoking didnt affect him at all?
If the accident and smoking affected him it is no one's fault but his own. It would be a sign of not being the best ever because he didn't care enough to take care of himself. I don't care how good you should have been, if you drink and smoke yourself out of high-end contention you don't deserve to be the best.

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05-03-2005, 11:59 AM
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
By the way who was the better one on one player? Who was the better stickhandler? Who was better on breakaways? Who was the better and faster skater? Who was more clutch? Who didnt have a bodyguard for most of his career? Who didnt hang out at centre waiting for passes? Who didnt win the art ross trophy with a freakin minus 25? Who wasnt apart of the best offensive team ever? Who didnt score on every chance he got in blowouts? Pretty sure the answer to all those question's is Lafleur.
This goes into the HOF for pathetic, belly-laugh inducing posts.

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05-03-2005, 12:09 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by kenabnrmal
This goes into the HOF for pathetic, belly-laugh inducing posts.
Why? Let's see.

Who was the better one on one player and stickhandler? Have you ever seen Wayne go end to end or put the puck under someones skate or deke two guys and the goalie and score? It was a routine for Guy.

Who was better on breakaways? Whenever Lafleur had a breakaway he would score 90 percent of the time. Gretzky even said he would on half his breakaways.

Skating ability? Should this even be answered? Guy no contest.

Lafleur was more clutch then Gretzky in those late 70-s playoffs. If you dont believe me then I'll let you in on some of the clutch plays Guy did. (Hint too many men penalty, etc.. etc)

Wayne did win the art ross trophy with a minus 25.... and that's a fact!

Wayne was part of the best offensive team ever and thats another fact!

If you watched the Oilers in the 80-s you would know that Wayne scored more points in blowouts then any other great player ever.

Need I go on?

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05-03-2005, 12:19 PM
  #100
kenabnrmal
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Why? Let's see.

Who was the better one on one player and stickhandler? Have you ever seen Wayne go end to end or put the puck under someones skate or deke two guys and the goalie and score? It was a routine for Guy.

Who was better on breakaways? Whenever Lafleur had a breakaway he would score 90 percent of the time. Gretzky even said he would on half his breakaways.

Skating ability? Should this even be answered? Guy no contest.

Lafleur was more clutch then Gretzky in those late 70-s playoffs. If you dont believe me then I'll let you in on some of the clutch plays Guy did. (Hint too many men penalty, etc.. etc)

Wayne did win the art ross trophy with a minus 25.... and that's a fact!

Wayne was part of the best offensive team ever and thats another fact!

If you watched the Oilers in the 80-s you would know that Wayne scored more points in blowouts then any other great player ever.

Need I go on?
You need not go on, you've littered the board with enough meaningless, desperate anti-99 drivel.

The impact of your "facts" on the debate is more than questionable, and the rest of your assertions opinion based upon your Hab-colored view.

I saw both in their prime, followed both closely. You're off your rocker where this is concerned. But, keep going, you and chooch are an entertaining distraction from a boring day at work.

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