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Trade Rumors and Proposals Part II

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Old
07-19-2013, 11:39 AM
  #326
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Right. But that's silly, why aren't people on Stajan's case anymore? Like, most of the team we had the past half decade were from bad trades... Unsure as to why Butler always gets crapped on... He's a relatively solid 4 spot- 5 spot.
I hate him because he is average at everything, excels at nothing. Players like that are only useful if they provide intensity and a mean streak. Stajan was like that once upon a time, but then Sutter canned him to the 4th line and he started playing with fire. Now I'm a fan of Stajan. If butler can pull a Stajan then great. I did see glimpses of that towards the end of the year, but I'm not sold yet. He signed a cheap contract, so lets see if that lights a fire under his ass. I want to see as many cross checks as possible to opponents back's this year. We need guys to clear the front of the net, and butler is physically capable of doing that. Hopefully his mentality catches up.

Ps. Butler is usually good for 1-2 completely retarded giveaways a game.

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07-19-2013, 07:50 PM
  #327
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I hate him because he is average at everything, excels at nothing. Players like that are only useful if they provide intensity and a mean streak. Stajan was like that once upon a time, but then Sutter canned him to the 4th line and he started playing with fire. Now I'm a fan of Stajan. If butler can pull a Stajan then great. I did see glimpses of that towards the end of the year, but I'm not sold yet. He signed a cheap contract, so lets see if that lights a fire under his ass. I want to see as many cross checks as possible to opponents back's this year. We need guys to clear the front of the net, and butler is physically capable of doing that. Hopefully his mentality catches up.

Ps. Butler is usually good for 1-2 completely retarded giveaways a game.
Gotta say i agree. He's like when you order a steak that looks great but tastes as bland as hell.

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07-19-2013, 08:15 PM
  #328
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I hate him because he is average at everything, excels at nothing. Players like that are only useful if they provide intensity and a mean streak. Stajan was like that once upon a time, but then Sutter canned him to the 4th line and he started playing with fire. Now I'm a fan of Stajan. If butler can pull a Stajan then great. I did see glimpses of that towards the end of the year, but I'm not sold yet. He signed a cheap contract, so lets see if that lights a fire under his ass. I want to see as many cross checks as possible to opponents back's this year. We need guys to clear the front of the net, and butler is physically capable of doing that. Hopefully his mentality catches up.

Ps. Butler is usually good for 1-2 completely retarded giveaways a game.
Facts are such an annoying thing lets not even use them!

FWIW Butler averaged less than .5 giveaways a game and was 6th on the team for regular defenseman for giveaways per game.

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07-19-2013, 08:35 PM
  #329
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Facts are such an annoying thing lets not even use them!

FWIW Butler averaged less than .5 giveaways a game and was 6th on the team for regular defenseman for giveaways per game.
giveaways are subjective and a pretty inconsistently kept stat-they depend on the statisticians view of it, and there can be indirect giveaways too. and when you consider that Butler was 5th in TOI for alot of the season (and used rather judiciously used by Hartley) that stat doesn't mean much. Besides that-its his man-on-man play that worries me....
The players that handled the offensive load would have higher giveaways anyway not only because of more passing but also more difficult passes.


Last edited by Wabbit: 07-20-2013 at 12:11 AM.
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07-23-2013, 03:28 AM
  #330
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giveaways are subjective and a pretty inconsistently kept stat-they depend on the statisticians view of it, and there can be indirect giveaways too. and when you consider that Butler was 5th in TOI for alot of the season (and used rather judiciously used by Hartley) that stat doesn't mean much. Besides that-its his man-on-man play that worries me....
The players that handled the offensive load would have higher giveaways anyway not only because of more passing but also more difficult passes.
To add to this, it's not necessarily the quantity of giveaways which is the issue, but rather the fact that when Butler gives the puck away, it is quite often the last time any Flame touches the puck before skating back to centre ice. And my opinion, for one, is completely ignoring any statistics. Just based on what I've noticed watching the games. It is entirely possible that some sort of bias has entered my point of view, but that would surprise me greatly given I went into the year as a Butler apologist.

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07-23-2013, 04:07 AM
  #331
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subjective stats or not, the same person is deciding Butlers giveaways as every other Flames player, so that is irrelevant since the comparison is within the team. You also have to factor in that Butler is a target and people will try to find ways to blame him even when other players are even more at fault. He has been a whipping boy for the fans since before he ever threw on the Flames jersey for the first time.

He is not nearly as bad as most make him out to be.


Last edited by Adirondack Flames: 07-23-2013 at 06:45 AM.
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Old
07-23-2013, 10:20 AM
  #332
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subjective stats or not, the same person is deciding Butlers giveaways as every other Flames player, so that is irrelevant since the comparison is within the team. You also have to factor in that Butler is a target and people will try to find ways to blame him even when other players are even more at fault. He has been a whipping boy for the fans since before he ever threw on the Flames jersey for the first time.

He is not nearly as bad as most make him out to be.
Actually I was a fan of getting butler at the time of the trade. I didn't like the trade really, but I was definitely not a butler hater at that point. I was one of the few guys who supported him lacing up the skates for this team.

I watch a lot of flames hockey. I don't like the guy and I've Already stated why several times. He's too ineffectual for me to give him any credit. Hopefully he turns it around and has a more tenacious season.

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07-23-2013, 11:31 AM
  #333
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He's "ineffectual" because that's what type of player he is, he's a positional stay at home defenseman. To expect more is just setting him up to fail.

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07-23-2013, 02:01 PM
  #334
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He's "ineffectual" because that's what type of player he is, he's a positional stay at home defenseman. To expect more is just setting him up to fail.
So he can't be a positional stay at home defensemen and play with an edge? He's a ****ing pilot in front of our net on most nights, he doesn't make it hard on anyone who crashes the crease. All I have to say to butler is grow a pair, because he's physically capable of standing his ground. And, for a stay at home defensemen he sure makes a lot of costly errors that lead to goals.

Regardless he's on this team. He showed a bit better towards the end of this past season, hopefully he continues to grow as a player. But IMO, you usually can't teach someone to play with an edge. They either have it or they don't.

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07-23-2013, 09:00 PM
  #335
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He's "ineffectual" because that's what type of player he is, he's a positional stay at home defenseman. To expect more is just setting him up to fail.
well then, he's made some decent money off the team considering hes an "ineffectual, positional stay at home defenseman" who doesn't play with an edge, and makes life easy for opponents in the crease.

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07-23-2013, 09:23 PM
  #336
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well then, he's made some decent money off the team considering hes an "ineffectual, positional stay at home defenseman" who doesn't play with an edge, and makes life easy for opponents in the crease.
He does his job. Which is a positionally solid 4-5 dman. To expect anything more is setting yourself up to be upset. Give it up, he's not half as bad as he's portrayed here. But hey, I guess since everyone got on board with Stajan we need a whipping boy right.

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07-23-2013, 10:15 PM
  #337
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He does his job. Which is a positionally solid 4-5 dman. To expect anything more is setting yourself up to be upset. Give it up, he's not half as bad as he's portrayed here. But hey, I guess since everyone got on board with Stajan we need a whipping boy right.
he's a 4-5 dman on the flames, he's an injury call-up on a competitive team. and- he costs $1.7M......i think he could do a BIT more.

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07-23-2013, 11:45 PM
  #338
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Butler's issue has always been consistency. He's now a vet player, and if he's not over coming the brain farts by now, I'm not sure if he's ever going to. He's good when he's playing focused, when he's not he'll lose the team games. I'm not a fan.

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07-23-2013, 11:52 PM
  #339
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he's a 4-5 dman on the flames, he's an injury call-up on a competitive team. and- he costs $1.7M......i think he could do a BIT more.
This is so ******** and not true at all.

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07-24-2013, 12:49 AM
  #340
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he's a 4-5 dman on the flames, he's an injury call-up on a competitive team. and- he costs $1.7M......i think he could do a BIT more.
Seriously? Everyone is seriously overblowing his deficiencies here. 1.7?? So he's overpaid now? Lol. His "brain farts" are much fewer and far between than when Sutter was in charge, Giordano had more of those moments this past season. Why must there be such a huge bias against our own players! Seriously! For what we pay him, and what's he's supposed to do, he's fine.

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07-24-2013, 10:14 AM
  #341
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Seriously? Everyone is seriously overblowing his deficiencies here. 1.7?? So he's overpaid now? Lol. His "brain farts" are much fewer and far between than when Sutter was in charge, Giordano had more of those moments this past season. Why must there be such a huge bias against our own players! Seriously! For what we pay him, and what's he's supposed to do, he's fine.
No, he's not. He's not worth the roster spot IMO. I would rather have a guy like Matt carkner in the lineup any day of the week.

We'd have a much tougher to play against blue line if that were the case. I don't get why people are so adamant to defend a guy who has done zilch for us since he put on the jersey.

I've already explained several times why I feel he does not provide a service to this club, that's my opinion, get over it.

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07-24-2013, 10:48 AM
  #342
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No, he's not. He's not worth the roster spot IMO. I would rather have a guy like Matt carkner in the lineup any day of the week.

We'd have a much tougher to play against blue line if that were the case. I don't get why people are so adamant to defend a guy who has done zilch for us since he put on the jersey.

I've already explained several times why I feel he does not provide a service to this club, that's my opinion, get over it.
This is a discussion forum, not a comment section. People are going to disagree with and debate your points if they have something to say. No one needs to get over anything.

I will say that despite heaping a lot of negativity on Butler, I have seen value in him in the past. He's shown an ability to skate and chip in offence from time to time, but his game was plagued last year with egregious and untimely turnovers which wound up in the back of our net.

I don't think that a d-man needs to do anything to stand out in order to be valuable. If a guy could play 15 minutes a night and ended up the season with an even +/-, never having been on the ice for a single goal, never making a hit or recording any kind of statistics, there would still be value in him because he kept the other team off of the scoresheet. As a bottom-pairing d-man, reliability is great. You can make an argument for a sort of tradeoff between reliability and impact amongst bottom-pairing d-men.

I guess that the real silver lining about Butler is that because he's got potential in just about every facet of his game, he's capable of becoming a very sound defenceman. It's not like he's really good at one thing and cripplingly poor at everything else. With a little improvement in a few aspects of his game, hopefully we can all become fans of his by the end of this coming season.

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07-24-2013, 10:58 AM
  #343
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This is a discussion forum, not a comment section. People are going to disagree with and debate your points if they have something to say. No one needs to get over anything.

I will say that despite heaping a lot of negativity on Butler, I have seen value in him in the past. He's shown an ability to skate and chip in offence from time to time, but his game was plagued last year with egregious and untimely turnovers which wound up in the back of our net.

I don't think that a d-man needs to do anything to stand out in order to be valuable. If a guy could play 15 minutes a night and ended up the season with an even +/-, never having been on the ice for a single goal, never making a hit or recording any kind of statistics, there would still be value in him because he kept the other team off of the scoresheet. As a bottom-pairing d-man, reliability is great. You can make an argument for a sort of tradeoff between reliability and impact amongst bottom-pairing d-men.

I guess that the real silver lining about Butler is that because he's got potential in just about every facet of his game, he's capable of becoming a very sound defenceman. It's not like he's really good at one thing and cripplingly poor at everything else. With a little improvement in a few aspects of his game, hopefully we can all become fans of his by the end of this coming season.
I get that it's a discussion forum, but people get too defensive and jump to conclusions. I'm not making him the new whipping boy, and I actually was a fan of him coming over.

I do agree that if he can improve, we might have something worth keeping. It's nice that he has a well balanced skill set. It's easier to become a better player when you do not have large gaps in your game. So even marginal improvements would help. I just want him to throw a few more cross checks and make safer decisions under pressure.

Hoping for the best, and I'd have to assume that's how feaster sees it.

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07-24-2013, 11:19 AM
  #344
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he's a 4-5 dman on the flames, he's an injury call-up on a competitive team. and- he costs $1.7M......i think he could do a BIT more.
This is honestly, a bunch of crap. He is easily a #5 guy on most teams in the league and is a #4 on the Flames and some others.

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07-24-2013, 11:45 AM
  #345
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No, he's not. He's not worth the roster spot IMO. I would rather have a guy like Matt carkner in the lineup any day of the week.

We'd have a much tougher to play against blue line if that were the case. I don't get why people are so adamant to defend a guy who has done zilch for us since he put on the jersey.

I've already explained several times why I feel he does not provide a service to this club, that's my opinion, get over it.
That's the problem. You and many other fans put him on a pedestal for some reason, maybe because that's our Regehr return. You expect him to do something big or something like that, that's not his game, he's a 4-5 complimentary dman, that's it, not some huge part of our core that's supposed to be a huge impact. I don't get why fans are so adamant on attacking a player who really shouldn't have those expectations put on him in the first place. I've already explained several times why he doesn't deserve the criticism, I feel he does provide a service to the club, that's my opinion. Get over it.

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07-24-2013, 11:54 AM
  #346
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That's the problem. You and many other fans put him on a pedestal for some reason, maybe because that's our Regehr return. You expect him to do something big or something like that, that's not his game, he's a 4-5 complimentary dman, that's it, not some huge part of our core that's supposed to be a huge impact. I don't get why fans are so adamant on attacking a player who really shouldn't have those expectations put on him in the first place. I've already explained several times why he doesn't deserve the criticism, I feel he does provide a service to the club, that's my opinion. Get over it.
You're not getting it. I never had high expectations of him, and I do not view him as anything more than a bottom pairing guy (i've stated this over and over again). However, I don't believe he's useful in that role, compared to other bottom pairing dmen around the league. I would rather have a tough guy, who is responsible enough to not brain fart 1-2 times per game. Matt carkner is the example I used. My point is butler is useless, no matter where he is in the lineup.

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07-24-2013, 12:09 PM
  #347
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You're not getting it. I never had high expectations of him, and I do not view him as anything more than a bottom pairing guy (i've stated this over and over again). However, I don't believe he's useful in that role, compared to other bottom pairing dmen around the league. I would rather have a tough guy, who is responsible enough to not brain fart 1-2 times per game. Matt carkner is the example I used. My point is butler is useless, no matter where he is in the lineup.
Your not getting it either, if you think he's useless than obviously you expected much more out of him. He does what he does, plain and simple, no more, no less, he's a complimentary player.. But, as the legendary Lebowski would say, "that's like, your opinion man." Agree to disagree and leave it at that I suppose

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07-24-2013, 12:25 PM
  #348
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Your not getting it either, if you think he's useless than obviously you expected much more out of him. He does what he does, plain and simple, no more, no less, he's a complimentary player.. But, as the legendary Lebowski would say, "that's like, your opinion man." Agree to disagree and leave it at that I suppose
I get it, at some point you just agree to disagree.

I just thought that once he came from BUF he'd compete like a dog to lock down a spot on our roster. Like what cundari did after we acquired him. Small man, big compete level, and he leaves it all out on the ice. He Hasen't proven it over a whole season yet, but I'm just using that small sample size as a comparison to how butler has not asserted himself.

BTW, nice Dude reference. ;-)

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07-24-2013, 09:33 PM
  #349
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This is honestly, a bunch of crap. He is easily a #5 guy on most teams in the league and is a #4 on the Flames and some others.
perhaps i was a bit harsh in my wording-for that, i apologize. However-if you look at all the teams that made the playoffs last year, theres only a few teams where he would be a lock to crack their top-six, if theres no injury concerns. How's that?

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07-25-2013, 12:12 AM
  #350
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perhaps i was a bit harsh in my wording-for that, i apologize. However-if you look at all the teams that made the playoffs last year, theres only a few teams where he would be a lock to crack their top-six, if theres no injury concerns. How's that?
I feel like I shouldn't have to do this but,

Teams Butler would be at least #6 are:
Pitts
Wash
Bos
Ott
NYI
Ana
Det
Minny

Teams he would arguably be in at least the top 6
Mon (better than Bouillon imo)
Tor (better than Kostka after his unreal first 10 games imo)
Stl (better than Russel and Polak imo)
LA (better than Ellerby imo)

so that is 12 teams that you could make an argument for him being in their top 6 at least. The reason he couldn't crack Van and SJ is they have a log jam of similarly skilled players and it would be a toss up. So he has the skill to be in the top 6 of 14 of 16 playoff teams. So your statement is wrong just plain wrong.

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