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Old
05-04-2013, 08:14 AM
  #251
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Originally Posted by slightlystewpid420 View Post
I agree he would be an awesome fit here. The price though might be a little steep. Definitely at least 2 picks possibly letestu plus. If they are even interested.
Agree on Ryan. He fits the available slot we have in the lineup to a T. But I too wonder the cost to acquire him. Not only if Jarmo is willing to move enough good assets but also enough to not get outbid by another GM.

Among FAs I think Horton is the ideal player for the same spot in CBJ lineup. Some skill, good hockey IQ, knows how to score goals - not an elite player by any means, but... But he has a history with concussions. I dunno.

My guess is Jarmo ends up with a good quality player than is a bit lower than the "ideal."

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05-04-2013, 10:16 AM
  #252
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If we had not made such an amazing run and come so close this year, I do not think we would ever be talking about moving multiple picks/prospects for a player like Ryan. And the more I think about it the more it seems unlikely that we would make such a move. I think JD and JK are trying to build an organization with depth for the long haul. And this draft is a great opportunity to land 3-5 more talented players to that pool of "long haul" talent. To address sort term needs I think it is more likely that they would add a guy like Horton as a UFA who, while not ideal, adds to the short term pool of talent without subtracting from the long term building project.

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05-04-2013, 10:29 AM
  #253
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I'll caviat this by saying I am not a hater....

I wonder if a guy like Tyutin isn't moved for a forward in the off season. His value probably won't get any higher. He was our most consistent, and best, all around defenseman this year - in my opinion. His contract doesn't look bad based on the face he's a consistent 40ish pt d-man and he plays in every aspect of the game.

I'm not saying I want to move him but I simply don't see Columbus as a "cap" team so moving salary has to be considered. "Brick by Brick" was tied to "build through the draft" in the conversations I heard with JK and JD. Tyutin seems to be a very solid fit on this team but if the thought is that Murray, Erixon and Prout are part of the future/present, players will need moved at some point. The best time to move players is at their peak value and that could be Tyutin.

I also happen to think Wiz played much better when healthy. He's not the same guy Tyutin is (obviously more offensive and PP guy) but he's carrying some salary to move too. While I don't think both get moved (it might hurt too much based on play this year if they were), I do think one will be moved and Nikitin is the other option to move (1 year left until UFA). All three can offer some value and open up spots for younger, cheaper players with higher upside (in Prout and Erixon's case they appear to have shown capable NHL d-men already. Murry, not yet).

I also would imagine if there is a taker for RJ and he's willing to waive he'll get moved as well. That's part of the leadership group (all three, not necessarily Nikitin) so we would need to be smart but if Vinny comes back and JJ, Dubi, Mac, Letestu and others can continue to drive the work ethic and culture we could be looking at exactly what St. Louis did - move salary, got younger, built through the draft and smart trades....

Just something to think about to getting roster spots open or signing players (I don't see any big signings personally, a vet to continue the culture shift but that's about it -and a backup goaltender).

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05-04-2013, 10:39 AM
  #254
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Been a busy week at work...just sat down and read this entire thread.

There have been a few mentions of Bobby Ryan in this thread, but no meaty conversations and I'm a little surprised by that.

To me, Ryan fits in perfectly here.
- He is a big power forward.
- He has scored 30+ goals in 4 seasons with the Ducks.
- He fits in with the "brick by brick" philosophy of management: he's only 26 and signed through the '14-'15 season.

After the Ducks signed Getzlaf and Perry to huge contracts AND with the cap going down next year I could definitely see Ryan being on the move. He's originally from the east coast and I assume he would welcome a trade to move closer to his home.

What would the cost be? I could see the Ducks willing to take our latter 2 1st round picks in this years draft. It's a deep draft this year and that may be enticing enough. I could be wrong though...they may want more.

Assuming management would prefer to sign a player instead of trading for one, put me in the Clarkson camp. Seems like he would be a good fit here as well.

Thoughts?
IMHO the Bobby Ryan ship sailed when we acquired Gaborik. We gave NYR the same package (center, top damn, and secondary player/pick) that was rumored to be the asking price for Ryan. The hang up for the Ducks I'm guessing was their perception of Brassard's value. To revisit this at this point would strip the Jackets of key needed pieces. BR won't come here as a UFA even with us moving to the east. Just don't see this happening; Ducks will not lose him due to cap issues.

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05-04-2013, 11:15 AM
  #255
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I'll caviat this by saying I am not a hater....

I wonder if a guy like Tyutin isn't moved for a forward in the off season. His value probably won't get any higher. He was our most consistent, and best, all around defenseman this year - in my opinion. His contract doesn't look bad based on the face he's a consistent 40ish pt d-man and he plays in every aspect of the game.

I'm not saying I want to move him but I simply don't see Columbus as a "cap" team so moving salary has to be considered. "Brick by Brick" was tied to "build through the draft" in the conversations I heard with JK and JD. Tyutin seems to be a very solid fit on this team but if the thought is that Murray, Erixon and Prout are part of the future/present, players will need moved at some point. The best time to move players is at their peak value and that could be Tyutin.

I also happen to think Wiz played much better when healthy. He's not the same guy Tyutin is (obviously more offensive and PP guy) but he's carrying some salary to move too. While I don't think both get moved (it might hurt too much based on play this year if they were), I do think one will be moved and Nikitin is the other option to move (1 year left until UFA). All three can offer some value and open up spots for younger, cheaper players with higher upside (in Prout and Erixon's case they appear to have shown capable NHL d-men already. Murry, not yet).

I also would imagine if there is a taker for RJ and he's willing to waive he'll get moved as well. That's part of the leadership group (all three, not necessarily Nikitin) so we would need to be smart but if Vinny comes back and JJ, Dubi, Mac, Letestu and others can continue to drive the work ethic and culture we could be looking at exactly what St. Louis did - move salary, got younger, built through the draft and smart trades....

Just something to think about to getting roster spots open or signing players (I don't see any big signings personally, a vet to continue the culture shift but that's about it -and a backup goaltender).
I understand what you are saying, but I would preach extreme caution in moving out defensive pieces. The team played 11 defensemen last year, you wade deeply into your prospect pool when that happens. Credit to the organization and coaching that it was a pleasant surprise when those prospects blossomed and hardly missed a beat. Now Moore is gone, down one, I would expect Holden to move along for a better opportunity given the strength of the lineup in front of him, down two. Does Aucoin come back? At 39 I think he accomplished what they asked him to do, and just don't think another year is in those legs, down 3. Granted Murray is coming, so up one.

Yes at some point some space will need to be cleared but I would prefer to see Prout prove he is the real deal, Erixon mature a little more, same with Goloubef and Savard. One roster or maybe one prospect, and I don't even like moving a roster player. Nikitin would be as far as I would go. Tyutin stays.

Just don't see that much change coming. The roster has been churned and churned and churned over the last few years. Now with a little success maybe it's time to settle down and let the growth and change come from within.

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05-04-2013, 01:04 PM
  #256
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Ah very good then. Let's play RJ on the third line so we're not paying our fourth line so much. Of course, we still will only have $4 mil to pay the new winger, but at least we'll have solved the problem of how much the fourth line is getting paid.

Or, maybe the FA isn't a "clear cut first line winger." I don't know.

The point is I haven't seen a convincing argument that shows Jarmo can't build a competitive, quality, playoffs-caliber roster with RJU (and his contract) on it. Until such time, I don't care what line he plays on vs. how much money he makes.
I don't really see the point in paying for another player that is an OK 2 liner/great 3rd liner. We have a ton of those guys. If RJU is playing like our 9th-12th best forward and making 4.6 mil a year it impacts the ability to add a true first line caliber player. Not sure why you keep referring to what line he plays on. He's the second highest paid forward on the team and based on his play he shouldn't be on any of the top 3 lines. My point is paying a guy 4.6 mil and getting 1 mill in production does affect the ability to put together the best possible roster.

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05-04-2013, 01:38 PM
  #257
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I don't really see the point in paying for another player that is an OK 2 liner/great 3rd liner. We have a ton of those guys. If RJU is playing like our 9th-12th best forward and making 4.6 mil a year it impacts the ability to add a true first line caliber player. Not sure why you keep referring to what line he plays on. He's the second highest paid forward on the team and based on his play he shouldn't be on any of the top 3 lines. My point is paying a guy 4.6 mil and getting 1 mill in production does affect the ability to put together the best possible roster.
So what would you do? This isn't the NFL, you can't just release him and forget about it. Buy him out? That's 3M a year for 4 years. That's for a serviceable forward to not play hockey. And that's on top of what an additional player will cost. Trade and assume salary? That doesn't create enough cap,space to make it worth the effort of the trade.

I get it, he's everybody's whipping boy at the moment, but I just don't see them spending 12 MILLION dollars just to open up a roster spot. He may not be worth his current contract but it doesn't mean he's worthless and should shunted to the scrap heap. One more year while the forward depth builds up, and then a decision can be made. Compliance buy-outs can also be done next summer if that's what needs to be done.

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05-04-2013, 01:46 PM
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadman View Post
So what would you do? This isn't the NFL, you can't just release him and forget about it. Buy him out? That's 3M a year for 4 years. That's for a serviceable forward to not play hockey. And that's on top of what an additional player will cost. Trade and assume salary? That doesn't create enough cap,space to make it worth the effort of the trade.

I get it, he's everybody's whipping boy at the moment, but I just don't see them spending 12 MILLION dollars just to open up a roster spot. He may not be worth his current contract but it doesn't mean he's worthless and should shunted to the scrap heap. One more year while the forward depth builds up, and then a decision can be made. Compliance buy-outs can also be done next summer if that's what needs to be done.
Well said... my thoughts exactly... We're sort of stuck right now... One thing that has not been mentioned, his contract is only an issue now because of his less than expected season. Had he performed to expectation we wouldn't be talking about him... The other possibility, he could rebound next season and play up to his contract expectation, who knows...

That said, we can't dump him for nothing, that wouldn't make sense..

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05-04-2013, 02:29 PM
  #259
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So what would you do? This isn't the NFL, you can't just release him and forget about it. Buy him out? That's 3M a year for 4 years. That's for a serviceable forward to not play hockey. And that's on top of what an additional player will cost. Trade and assume salary? That doesn't create enough cap,space to make it worth the effort of the trade.

I get it, he's everybody's whipping boy at the moment, but I just don't see them spending 12 MILLION dollars just to open up a roster spot. He may not be worth his current contract but it doesn't mean he's worthless and should shunted to the scrap heap. One more year while the forward depth builds up, and then a decision can be made. Compliance buy-outs can also be done next summer if that's what needs to be done.
Earlier in this thread I acknowledged that it is a difficult situation. If I were GM for a day I guess I would trade him for anything offered that did not include us having to give up another asset to get rid of him. Assuming we resign our RFA's, Vinny and maybe Comeau we'll have 12 forwards with one way contracts next year, and Ry Jo on a 2 way deal. Someone has to go if we want to bring in someone who can put the puck in the back of the net. I would be willing to basically give him away to free up the salary and roster spot. At least we would be in a position to take on a player with a $5 mil + contract in the event that a top line player becomes available when teams have to adjust to the lower salary cap next season.

The specific post you were replying to was in response to the idea that we are able to put together a perennial playoff roster paying a guy 4.6 mil and him giving the team 4th liner production. If we want to be able to afford top line guys we can't have that.


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05-04-2013, 02:56 PM
  #260
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I understand what you are saying, but I would preach extreme caution in moving out defensive pieces. The team played 11 defensemen last year, you wade deeply into your prospect pool when that happens. Credit to the organization and coaching that it was a pleasant surprise when those prospects blossomed and hardly missed a beat. Now Moore is gone, down one, I would expect Holden to move along for a better opportunity given the strength of the lineup in front of him, down two. Does Aucoin come back? At 39 I think he accomplished what they asked him to do, and just don't think another year is in those legs, down 3. Granted Murray is coming, so up one.

Yes at some point some space will need to be cleared but I would prefer to see Prout prove he is the real deal, Erixon mature a little more, same with Goloubef and Savard. One roster or maybe one prospect, and I don't even like moving a roster player. Nikitin would be as far as I would go. Tyutin stays.

Just don't see that much change coming. The roster has been churned and churned and churned over the last few years. Now with a little success maybe it's time to settle down and let the growth and change come from within.
It's true, we might need to go through 11 defencemen again next year, but that's not a justification for keeping multi-million dollar defencemen in your 7th and 8th spots on the depth chart.

At this point, I see Prout and Erixon as NHL defencemen. They can't be sitting either, so they can't be in the 7th spot. Murray will probably be firmly in that same group by mid-year. I think Nick Holden would make the perfect guy for the 7th spot, because you can sit him most games and he stays steady. I don't think he'd stay for another two-way deal, so I'd offer him a one-way deal.

JJ - Tyuts
Prout-Murray
Wiz - Erixon
Holden

Golo - Savard

Nikitin is the odd man out here, although I'd be just as happy if moving Wiz was possible, or if we could get a great return for Tyutin. If we move one, that leaves us with 9 defencemen, which should be enough. And if you need 10 or 11, then you're looking to your AHL guys, and if they can't cut it you pull someone off waivers or dole out a late pick for another team's reserve defenceman. Not that big a deal.

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05-04-2013, 03:55 PM
  #261
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It's true, we might need to go through 11 defencemen again next year, but that's not a justification for keeping multi-million dollar defencemen in your 7th and 8th spots on the depth chart.

At this point, I see Prout and Erixon as NHL defencemen. They can't be sitting either, so they can't be in the 7th spot. Murray will probably be firmly in that same group by mid-year. I think Nick Holden would make the perfect guy for the 7th spot, because you can sit him most games and he stays steady. I don't think he'd stay for another two-way deal, so I'd offer him a one-way deal.

JJ - Tyuts
Prout-Murray
Wiz - Erixon
Holden

Golo - Savard

Nikitin is the odd man out here, although I'd be just as happy if moving Wiz was possible, or if we could get a great return for Tyutin. If we move one, that leaves us with 9 defencemen, which should be enough. And if you need 10 or 11, then you're looking to your AHL guys, and if they can't cut it you pull someone off waivers or dole out a late pick for another team's reserve defenceman. Not that big a deal.
Holden is unlikely, UFA & I would expect he will be looking for a opportunity with better odds.

So...

JJ - Tyutin
Prout - Murray (Really? That's a TOTAL of 28 NHL games)
Wiz - Erixon
Goloubef/Savard ?

Better

JJ - Tyutin
Prout/Nikitin - Wiz
Nikitin/Prout - Erixon/Murray (rotation)
Goloubef/ Savard call up

until such time as Prout & Erixon & Murray actually show their metal over more than 28, 31, and 0 games played I wouldn't be letting go of anyone. I do think they are capable but anyone remember Clitsome? Rotate and move guys in and out, up and down and the creme will rise. I don't see moving a D for at least a season, unless it's a prospect for prospect D for O.

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05-04-2013, 04:21 PM
  #262
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Holden is unlikely, UFA & I would expect he will be looking for a opportunity with better odds.

So...

JJ - Tyutin
Prout - Murray (Really? That's a TOTAL of 28 NHL games)
Wiz - Erixon
Goloubef/Savard ?

Better

JJ - Tyutin
Prout/Nikitin - Wiz
Nikitin/Prout - Erixon/Murray (rotation)
Goloubef/ Savard call up

until such time as Prout & Erixon & Murray actually show their metal over more than 28, 31, and 0 games played I wouldn't be letting go of anyone. I do think they are capable but anyone remember Clitsome? Rotate and move guys in and out, up and down and the creme will rise. I don't see moving a D for at least a season, unless it's a prospect for prospect D for O.
I'm not worried about major regression from Prout or Murray. And despite his 0 NHL games, I'd sooner trust Murray than Wiz back there.

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05-04-2013, 04:26 PM
  #263
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I'm not worried about major regression from Prout or Murray. And despite his 0 NHL games, I'd sooner trust Murray than Wiz back there.
You may not be ......

.......but I would think just a little caution might be a good idea.

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05-04-2013, 06:18 PM
  #264
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Well said... my thoughts exactly... We're sort of stuck right now... One thing that has not been mentioned, his contract is only an issue now because of his less than expected season. Had he performed to expectation we wouldn't be talking about him... The other possibility, he could rebound next season and play up to his contract expectation, who knows....
This I think is the best option for next season. He almost had to be. Right now, I think I'd line him up with Dubi and Calvert.

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05-04-2013, 06:28 PM
  #265
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I don't really see the point in paying for another player that is an OK 2 liner/great 3rd liner. We have a ton of those guys. If RJU is playing like our 9th-12th best forward and making 4.6 mil a year it impacts the ability to add a true first line caliber player. Not sure why you keep referring to what line he plays on. He's the second highest paid forward on the team and based on his play he shouldn't be on any of the top 3 lines. My point is paying a guy 4.6 mil and getting 1 mill in production does affect the ability to put together the best possible roster.
And I'm saying I don't think that has been shown. I mean, I suppose we could say something easy like 'there's no way we could add Lecavalier with RJ taking up a spot, but I don't know that his salary even on the fourth line precludes the team from adding a player that makes the roster a playoff-worthy one.

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05-04-2013, 08:06 PM
  #266
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This I think is the best option for next season. He almost had to be. Right now, I think I'd line him up with Dubi and Calvert.
We were hoping he would rebound after last season. I'm still hoping since it would up his value both to us and to other teams that may become interested in him, but I'm not holding my breath for it.

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05-04-2013, 08:30 PM
  #267
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We were hoping he would rebound after last season.
I'm aware.

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05-04-2013, 08:34 PM
  #268
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Tough rock and hard place situation.

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05-04-2013, 09:21 PM
  #269
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If we had not made such an amazing run and come so close this year, I do not think we would ever be talking about moving multiple picks/prospects for a player like Ryan. And the more I think about it the more it seems unlikely that we would make such a move. I think JD and JK are trying to build an organization with depth for the long haul. And this draft is a great opportunity to land 3-5 more talented players to that pool of "long haul" talent. To address sort term needs I think it is more likely that they would add a guy like Horton as a UFA who, while not ideal, adds to the short term pool of talent without subtracting from the long term building project.
For the short term? Really?

Ryan is 26 and signed for 2 more seasons. There's nothing short term about that. If we see that we're not going to resign him then we trade him at the break 1.5 years down the road.

If you can get him at the right price, this is a no-brainer. You could potentially have 2 lethal lines, one with a 40 goal scorer in Gaborik and 1 with a 30 goal scorer in Ryan. We could move away from just missing the playoffs to being a true contender.

I didn't expect Jarmo to pull off a deal for a player like Gaborik at the break so I'm not assuming this isn't possible (double negative there...where did I go to school? ) And I fully expect Ryan to be moved this offseason with the Getzlaf/Perry deals and with the cap coming down. But who knows. It should be a fun offseason regardless. The draft will be a blast with the 3 picks and then free agency will be fun on 7/5 as well. And then finally we'll have a season that we can look forward to next year.

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05-04-2013, 09:46 PM
  #270
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Food for thought... its possible the trade for Gaborik could be the biggest mistake in years.. The dude was injured when we got him...?

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05-04-2013, 09:57 PM
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Food for thought... its possible the trade for Gaborik could be the biggest mistake in years.. The dude was injured when we got him...?
Which years are we talking about? Because I can think of a few other mistakes that didn't produce at a .75 ppg pace even when they were healthy.

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05-04-2013, 10:11 PM
  #272
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Which years are we talking about? Because I can think of a few other mistakes that didn't produce at a .75 ppg pace even when they were healthy.
we will see.... lets hope that mesh now used to heal major stomach muscle damage works... if not we lost Brassard, Moore and Dorse for nothing....

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05-04-2013, 10:14 PM
  #273
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Food for thought... its possible the trade for Gaborik could be the biggest mistake in years.. The dude was injured when we got him...?
I thought all year that he was dinged up. Lots of folks were saying it.

But I viewed the injury, and continue to view it, as a good thing: it means he can heal up and play better going forward. If he wasn't injured I would be saying "biggest mistake in years."

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05-04-2013, 10:25 PM
  #274
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Originally Posted by Robert View Post
we will see.... lets hope that mesh now used to heal major stomach muscle damage works... if not we lost Brassard, Moore and Dorse for nothing....
I hear you, but the only part of that deal that makes me sad is Moore. Brass was never able to put it together here for any extended period of time, Dorsett was a fan favorite but he had a tendency to take terrible penalties at terrible times, his heart and grit were replaceable and his offense was emerging but still fairly unremarkable. Moore was bypassed on the depth chart by several defensemen already and we still haven't seen our #2 overall pick in the defense yet either. Moore has great potential, but we have others with great potential.

We didn't have anyone of Gaborik's caliber as a top line player. Even injured Gaborik.

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05-04-2013, 10:46 PM
  #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by major major View Post
I thought all year that he was dinged up. Lots of folks were saying it.

But I viewed the injury, and continue to view it, as a good thing: it means he can heal up and play better going forward. If he wasn't injured I would be saying "biggest mistake in years."
Quote:
Originally Posted by FANonymous View Post
I hear you, but the only part of that deal that makes me sad is Moore. Brass was never able to put it together here for any extended period of time, Dorsett was a fan favorite but he had a tendency to take terrible penalties at terrible times, his heart and grit were replaceable and his offense was emerging but still fairly unremarkable. Moore was bypassed on the depth chart by several defensemen already and we still haven't seen our #2 overall pick in the defense yet either. Moore has great potential, but we have others with great potential.

We didn't have anyone of Gaborik's caliber as a top line player. Even injured Gaborik.
I think we need to be prepared, I think we must get a backup first line forward.. at best we end up with two, at worst we still have one..

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