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Blues Trade Proposals - Part 6

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05-09-2013, 10:09 AM
  #176
Halak Ness Monster
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Mental mistakes have been the bigger issue. LA is more skilled, but if we take out mental mistakes, especially in game 4, we'd be up in the series.
LA hasn't made mental mistakes, though? The Blues have dominated two games in this series and 50% or more in two other games with the help of some mental mistakes from guys like Keaton Ellerby and Drew Muzzin.

The difference is that the Kings are capitalizing thanks to immense skill and the Blues aren't when mental mistakes are made.

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05-09-2013, 10:23 AM
  #177
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
LA hasn't made mental mistakes, though? The Blues have dominated two games in this series and 50% or more in two other games with the help of some mental mistakes from guys like Keaton Ellerby and Drew Muzzin.

The difference is that the Kings are capitalizing thanks to immense skill and the Blues aren't when mental mistakes are made.
I don't care what LA does or doesn't because we can't control that. We can however control our mental mistakes, and by doing that, we would be up in the series. Skill is not everything.

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05-09-2013, 10:24 AM
  #178
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Really?

I'd take Kopitar, Carter, Richards, and Brown before I took any Blues forward based on skill alone. Williams is also far more accomplished than anyone on the Blues. However, they have more to them than that. Most notably they are all winning players.

Have you seen a Blues player make a pass like Kopitar's no-look pass to Carter last night? How about Brown's beauty to Kopitar in Game 1? Hell even the finish on the goal by Kopitar in Game 3 was nice.

It's great to say that the Kings core is older and thus more consistent. Unfortunately, the Kings core was also head and shoulders better at age 23-25. The numbers bear that out and it's quite evident.

Patrik Berglund isn't Jeff Carter.
David Perron and TJ Oshie aren't Mike Richards.
Chris Stewart is close to Brown in production but Brown is better all-around.
No one on the Blues comes close to Anze Kopitar.

Our defense is better than theirs. No debate. However, our lack of finishers and even great setup men have been our downfall so far. We are a team that goes for deflections and rebounds. When the deflections don't go in and the rebounds are being swept away, we can't win by making the beautiful pass or precision goal.

If skill hasn't been the difference in this series, what is it? It certainly isn't hard work, consistency, defense, and really not even goaltending despite Elliott's softie last night.

I've never seen a Blues team play harder in a playoff series than this one.
I full agree with this assessment. Our players are all really good. They are for the most part still young, and have a lot of room to keep growing. However, the one thing that LA has that we don't is legit all-star power at the top 6 forward positions. They have the same depth as we do, with guys like Jarred Stoll and Trevor Lewis etc. but they have the absolute head-and-shoulders better top 6 compared to us right now.

We don't have anyone skill-wise that's a finisher like Carter (45+ goals in a single season, average of 30+ goals a year over the course of his 6 years in Philly) an overall top Center like Kopitar, etc etc.

One could make the claim that our D is better then theirs, but so far their D has outplayed ours as well, they have gotten about the same offensive production from their guys as we have from ours, but none of their guys have made any absolute bone-headed plays that have lead to us getting 2-on-1 and 3-on-1 situations, or coughing up pucks in the slot area. (They rely on Quick for that kind of sillyness!)

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05-09-2013, 10:29 AM
  #179
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I don't care what LA does or doesn't because we can't control that. We can however control our mental mistakes, and by doing that, we would be up in the series. Skill is not everything.
That is like saying we need to play a full 60 minutes. Well if we play a full 60 minutes then what the hell is the other team playing? 0 minutes?

Mental mistakes happen. It's unreasonable to suggest we get rid of them completely. Guys get lost on the ice for a second. It happens in every game.

LA has used skill to take advantage of our mistakes. We haven't done the same. IMO that has been the difference.

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05-09-2013, 12:39 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
That is like saying we need to play a full 60 minutes. Well if we play a full 60 minutes then what the hell is the other team playing? 0 minutes?

Mental mistakes happen. It's unreasonable to suggest we get rid of them completely. Guys get lost on the ice for a second. It happens in every game.

LA has used skill to take advantage of our mistakes. We haven't done the same. IMO that has been the difference.
That's not what I'm saying at all. Off course no team can play a perfect game, but eliminating mistakes like Leopold's horrible pinch and actually getting the puck in deep are simple and easy. Those are the small things or major mental collapses that are not normal.

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05-09-2013, 12:42 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
That is like saying we need to play a full 60 minutes. Well if we play a full 60 minutes then what the hell is the other team playing? 0 minutes?

Mental mistakes happen. It's unreasonable to suggest we get rid of them completely. Guys get lost on the ice for a second. It happens in every game.

LA has used skill to take advantage of our mistakes. We haven't done the same. IMO that has been the difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
That's not what I'm saying at all. Off course no team can play a perfect game, but eliminating mistakes like Leopold's horrible pinch and actually getting the puck in deep are simple and easy. Those are the small things or major mental collapses that are not normal.
It's a combination of both. I don't expect our guys to be perfect. But i do expect them to limit their mistakes. I still think our biggest problem is not capitalizing on other teams mistakes. We just don't have the offensive skill to do it. We are one good piece away from being there.

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05-09-2013, 12:45 PM
  #182
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How would a playmaking center actually make a difference in this series? Our problem is finishing chances, so a playmaking center would basically just create more chances for us to kiss away.

We create a crapton of chances, way more than LA this series. What we need is a finisher. It can be a winger or center since Backes, Berglund, and Sobotka are good enough in a series against LA.

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05-09-2013, 12:50 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by BleedBlue247 View Post
It's a combination of both. I don't expect our guys to be perfect. But i do expect them to limit their mistakes. I still think our biggest problem is not capitalizing on other teams mistakes. We just don't have the offensive skill to do it. We are one good piece away from being there.
Yeah, I just don't think it is our skill that is limiting us in this specific series. We need to add a finisher to win it all. Someone who we can tell to score a goal in the last 2 minutes and they will.

Despite that, I also don't think that lack of a finisher is the primary reason for why we could be eliminated. Despite our lack of finishing, we should still be winning if a couple uncharacteristic mistakes were not made.

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05-09-2013, 01:32 PM
  #184
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i think the entire team just needs to spend the entire off season working on hitting a rolling bouncing puck into a god damn wide open net

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05-09-2013, 02:01 PM
  #185
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We actually have a decent amount of 20 goal scorers on our team. It seems like it's more mental than anything else with our team.

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05-09-2013, 02:09 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by HooliganX2 View Post
We actually have a decent amount of 20 goal scorers on our team. It seems like it's more mental than anything else with our team.
We still need a go-to guy.

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05-09-2013, 02:51 PM
  #187
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I wish Vinny Lecavalier didn't have the worst contract known to man. With Tampa most likely getting Mackinnon in the draft, what happens to Vinny? Will Stamkos move to wing? Will they buyout Vinny?

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05-09-2013, 03:06 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
I wish Vinny Lecavalier didn't have the worst contract known to man. With Tampa most likely getting Mackinnon in the draft, what happens to Vinny? Will Stamkos move to wing? Will they buyout Vinny?
I would be shocked if the Panthers didn't take MacKinnon at #2, which would leave the Lightning with Drouin.

I don't see any chance that Lecavalier gets bought out this summer, it is certainly something the will need to consider next summer though. They are tight against the cap, but they can get rid of a couple of other players to create some space for next year. If the Coyotes remain in Phoenix, then the cap is going to rise at a slower rate, and keeping around a $7.7m contract with a NMC is just going to be really problematic beyond next season.

Edit: Maybe not though. Once it comes time to pay Drouin, they can use the money freed up by Martin St. Louis. So I suppose it comes down to how many of their overpaid defensemen they can move asap. I think Brad Richards is far more likely to get bought out, but again not until 2014.

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05-09-2013, 03:12 PM
  #189
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After the season Huberdeau had I'm not sure how they couldn't take Drouin to put on his wing. While I expect Brad Richards to be bought out, after the seasons he had, I'm not sure I would want to pay what a team like Toronto is willing to pay him. I would be very interested in Mike Ribeiro though.

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05-09-2013, 03:18 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
I wish Vinny Lecavalier didn't have the worst contract known to man. With Tampa most likely getting Mackinnon in the draft, what happens to Vinny? Will Stamkos move to wing? Will they buyout Vinny?
They will almost certainly buyout Vinny IF they draft MacKinnon. You can't have 7 mil tied up in, possibly, your 3rd best center.

There is talk that TB could trade the 3rd overall for a several pieces to put around their star players.

What makes you think Florida passes on MacKinnon, though?

BTW, if TB buys out Lecavalier, Toronto offers him 5 years, 30 million.

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05-09-2013, 03:26 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
They will almost certainly buyout Vinny IF they draft MacKinnon. You can't have 7 mil tied up in, possibly, your 3rd best center.

There is talk that TB could trade the 3rd overall for a several pieces to put around their star players.

What makes you think Florida passes on MacKinnon, though?

BTW, if TB buys out Lecavalier, Toronto offers him 5 years, 30 million.
Posted above why I think Florida takes Drouin over Mackinnon. Also what would you be willing to give up for that #3 overall pick? Something around Halak+Stewart++? Obviously the 3rd would still have to be Mackinnon to even want the 3rd overall.

Also, yeah, it will be basically impossible for us to sign a #1C considering that's what Toronto needs and we know how much money they have...

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05-09-2013, 03:29 PM
  #192
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Yeah, I just don't think it is our skill that is limiting us in this specific series. We need to add a finisher to win it all. Someone who we can tell to score a goal in the last 2 minutes and they will.
You kind of contradicted yourself but I agree that our lack of skill is hurting us...I assume that was your point when you said "we need to add a finisher to win it all."

I don't know if we need a finisher or a top center that can draw and mesmorize defenders like Kopitar did on the 2nd goal last night.

Either way, I agree. We need to add a highly skilled forward...if not two. Our overall skill level now doesn't compare to LA's.

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05-09-2013, 03:32 PM
  #193
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After the season Huberdeau had I'm not sure how they couldn't take Drouin to put on his wing. While I expect Brad Richards to be bought out, after the seasons he had, I'm not sure I would want to pay what a team like Toronto is willing to pay him. I would be very interested in Mike Ribeiro though.
You take the best player available, and when the BPA is a centre then you don't hesitate for a second.

Just look how often high end wingers become available in FA, and how often you can pick up good-very good wingers in the late first/early second round of the draft. Those holes in the team are much easier to fill than elite centres.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Posted above why I think Florida takes Drouin over Mackinnon. Also what would you be willing to give up for that #3 overall pick? Something around Halak+Stewart++? Obviously the 3rd would still have to be Mackinnon to even want the 3rd overall.

Also, yeah, it will be basically impossible for us to sign a #1C considering that's what Toronto needs and we know how much money they have...
I'm of the opinion that Barkov is the best offensive player in this draft. If I had the #3 pick, I take Barkov without any hesitation.

As for Halák in any deal, he has very little value. Just look at the goalie market this summer... very few goalies are going to have any real value. Not sure why some think Miller is going to get anything significant when you look at who is available and who the buyers are.

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05-09-2013, 03:37 PM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
Really?

I'd take Kopitar, Carter, Richards, and Brown before I took any Blues forward based on skill alone. Williams is also far more accomplished than anyone on the Blues. However, they have more to them than that. Most notably they are all winning players.

Have you seen a Blues player make a pass like Kopitar's no-look pass to Carter last night? How about Brown's beauty to Kopitar in Game 1? Hell even the finish on the goal by Kopitar in Game 3 was nice.

It's great to say that the Kings core is older and thus more consistent. Unfortunately, the Kings core was also head and shoulders better at age 23-25. The numbers bear that out and it's quite evident.

Patrik Berglund isn't Jeff Carter.
David Perron and TJ Oshie aren't Mike Richards.
Chris Stewart is close to Brown in production but Brown is better all-around.
No one on the Blues comes close to Anze Kopitar.

Our defense is better than theirs. No debate. However, our lack of finishers and even great setup men have been our downfall so far. We are a team that goes for deflections and rebounds. When the deflections don't go in and the rebounds are being swept away, we can't win by making the beautiful pass or precision goal.

If skill hasn't been the difference in this series, what is it? It certainly isn't hard work, consistency, defense, and really not even goaltending despite Elliott's softie last night.

I've never seen a Blues team play harder in a playoff series than this one.
I think you can make a case for any number of things being the difference in this series since it has been so ridiculously close. I'm not sure skill would even make my top 5.

Quick's outplayed Elliott. The Blues have generally controlled play, but their defensive breakdowns have been far worse than those made by LA. LA has played better hockey when they have the lead than the Blues have played with the lead. Some might argue that Sutter has outcoached Hitchcock. Even luck has played a role.

Brown hasn't been any more effective than Backes this series. Carter, Richards, and Kopitar were basically non-factors for 60% of the games that have been played.

Brown, Kopitar, Carter, and Richards have combined to score 5 of LAs 10 goals. Steen and Oshie have that many between them alone.

Off the top of my head, Carter scored 1 of his goals unchecked into an open net, and the other two came standing in front of the net all alone. Kopitar's goal came from directly in front of the net where he was completely unchecked. Goals like that are expected to be converted by even mediocre scoring talent, so did they happen because Carter and Kopitar are so much more skilled than our forwards? Or is it more the product of the Blues blowing key defensive assignments at critical times? The Blues have had quite a few chances around the net, but how many of them have been completely uncontested? Far less than the number the Blues have given the Kings.

I've seen a lot of small things add up this series, but I simply haven't seen LA's skill give them any sort of edge in play whatsoever over the Blues.

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05-09-2013, 03:38 PM
  #195
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Originally Posted by Bluesman91 View Post
Posted above why I think Florida takes Drouin over Mackinnon. Also what would you be willing to give up for that #3 overall pick? Something around Halak+Stewart++? Obviously the 3rd would still have to be Mackinnon to even want the 3rd overall.

Also, yeah, it will be basically impossible for us to sign a #1C considering that's what Toronto needs and we know how much money they have...
TB has no need for Halak with Ben Bishop and Anders Lindback in place.

I'd give up Stewart and Shattenkirk for Nathan MacKinnon, though.

That's a fair price considering Colorado gave up that much for a struggling top pairing d-man(that has since turned out to be a 2nd pairing d-man).

MacKinnon easily has 70-80 point superstar potential.

TB gets a partner for Hedman and a winger for Lecavalier.

We would save a ton of money so we can go out and get a 2nd pairing d-man to fill Shattenkirk's shoes.

I realize losing Shatty would be hard but we have to get difference makers at forward.

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05-09-2013, 03:51 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by EastonBlues22 View Post
I've seen a lot of small things add up this series, but I simply haven't seen LA's skill give them any sort of edge in play whatsoever over the Blues.
I pointed out a few instances.

Brown making the great cross ice pass to Kopitar for the goal.
Kopitar actually cleanly receiving the pass(a struggle for some Blues players) and scoring the goal.
Kopitar drawing defenders and then making a no-look pass to Carter for a goal.

I've yet to see much skill from the Blues.

One of Steen's goals was a gift from Quick.
A goal bounced in off Berglund's skate.
Oshie had a nice tip but also just roofed an open net goal.
Backes had a wide open net on his goal after a shot went wide.

Steen's goal last night was nice, though.

Overall maybe the Kings skill level hasn't led them to a 3-2 lead but the Blues lack of skill has led them to a 3-2 defecit.

I look back at the last 5 games and the only thing that really stands out is that the Blues just don't have the offensive talent. It certainly isn't hard work, hustle, backchecking, buying-in, putting pucks on net, or playing defense. The Blues are doing a damn good job of all those things. It really isn't even goaltending. Quick has yet to make a WOW save in this series that really stole a goal from us.
Our guys just either continue to shoot wide or tip it wide, miss open nets, or shoot the puck in areas that a goalie will usually make a save(like at his logo). It's not like we are making great open ice passes for one timers that he is sliding over to get. We're mostly trying to jam it under him on wrap arounds and it isn't coming close to working.

If anything Quick is the reason we are still in this series. He gave us Game 1 and 2. Perhaps we still win but the Kings were on a PP in Game 1 and they were playing well in Game 2.

In terms of soft goals, Quick has allowed more than Elliott.

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05-09-2013, 03:51 PM
  #197
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
You kind of contradicted yourself but I agree that our lack of skill is hurting us...I assume that was your point when you said "we need to add a finisher to win it all."

I don't know if we need a finisher or a top center that can draw and mesmorize defenders like Kopitar did on the 2nd goal last night.

Either way, I agree. We need to add a highly skilled forward...if not two. Our overall skill level now doesn't compare to LA's.
I've been up a long time lol. I meant that the primary reason is mental for being down to LA. To eventually win it all, we will need a finisher. Micro vs macro basically.

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05-09-2013, 04:04 PM
  #198
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I've been up a long time lol. I meant that the primary reason is mental for being down to LA.
Just the fact that you owned up to it makes me really like you. You NEVER(and I mean never) see anyone ever admit that they may have contradicted themselves. The usual response is "No I didn't. You just can't read."

We still disagree but you're my favorite poster now.

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05-09-2013, 04:05 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by Halak Ness Monster View Post
I pointed out a few instances.

Brown making the great cross ice pass to Kopitar for the goal.
Kopitar actually cleanly receiving the pass(a struggle for some Blues players) and scoring the goal.
Kopitar drawing defenders and then making a no-look pass to Carter for a goal.

I've yet to see much skill from the Blues.

One of Steen's goals was a gift from Quick.
A goal bounced in off Berglund's skate.
Oshie had a nice tip but also just roofed an open net goal.
Backes had a wide open net on his goal after a shot went wide.

Steen's goal last night was nice, though.

Overall maybe the Kings skill level hasn't led them to a 3-2 lead but the Blues lack of skill has led them to a 3-2 defecit.

I look back at the last 5 games and the only thing that really stands out is that the Blues just don't have the offensive talent. It certainly isn't hard work, hustle, backchecking, buying-in, putting pucks on net, or playing defense. The Blues are doing a damn good job of all those things. It really isn't even goaltending. Quick has yet to make a WOW save in this series that really stole a goal from us.
Our guys just either continue to shoot wide or tip it wide, miss open nets, or shoot the puck in areas that a goalie will usually make a save(like at his logo). It's not like we are making great open ice passes for one timers that he is sliding over to get. We're mostly trying to jam it under him on wrap arounds and it isn't coming close to working.

If anything Quick is the reason we are still in this series. He gave us Game 1 and 2. Perhaps we still win but the Kings were on a PP in Game 1 and they were playing well in Game 2.

In terms of soft goals, Quick has allowed more than Elliott.
Scoring a couple of nice goals doesn't equal an edge in play. A goal scored off a nice play doesn't count any more than one scored off hard work or a lucky bounce. If LA's forwards were able to do that sort of thing consistently, then that would lead to an edge in play...but they haven't been. Not even close, and not even on special teams where that extra skill should really shine. Their skill has been every bit as inconsistent at generating scoring chances as our skill has been at finishing theirs. Like I said, they were complete no-shows for the first 3 games of the series. Hard to be the clear difference between two teams when that's the case.

Besides, skill doesn't always trump all. Sometimes it just boils down to luck. The Blues and Kings were dead even on the scoreboard after 16 periods until that last flukey goal off Voynov's stick. Both teams have already had a few goals like that. Maybe the Blues get the next one. It's certainly possible. That's just the sort of series this is.

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05-09-2013, 04:07 PM
  #200
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Just the fact that you owned up to it makes me really like you. You NEVER(and I mean never) see anyone ever admit that they may have contradicted themselves. The usual response is "No I didn't. You just can't read."

We still disagree but you're my favorite poster now.
Haha. I know I can be argumentative because well I like it lol, but if I'm wrong or unclear, I want to make sure I fix it.

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