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Ottawa San Jose Proposal

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Old
05-02-2005, 03:05 PM
  #1
bert
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Ottawa San Jose Proposal

I know San Jose isnt rebuilding but I want to know if you guys think this is a resonable trade offer.

Spezza, Volchenkov, White and Bochenski

for

Marleau and Hannan

The time is now for the Ottawa Senators, it appears that Hannan is that perfect pairing for Redden that us Sens fans have always been looking for. Marleau is that first line center that the sens have always been needing and wanting he fits right into this age group.

What do you guys think?

Spezza is a true franchise player and it appears that Volchenkov is well on his way to a very similiar career to Yushkevich with more of an offensive upside already suiting up for Russia at the World Cup of Hockey. Bochenksi had a tremendous rookie campaign in the AHL with 34 goals and White is a great third line centerman who despite most Senators has been good in the playoffs.

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Old
05-02-2005, 03:06 PM
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why would the sharks do that

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05-02-2005, 03:11 PM
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This is a very fair proposal but I think its a step in the wrong direction for the San Jose Sharks franchise.

1.) They start rebuilding again when they are obviously a contendor. If youth meant so much to them, they wouldn't have traded Brad Boyes for UFA rental, Curtis Brown, last year.

2.) They lose the identity of their team. The Sharks are a young, intense and explosive squad based on the strong and speedy two-way play of their franchise-center in Marleau and their terrific defense is anchored by the mean play of Scott Hannan. I don't think trading those two franchise cogs would be smart considering the guys they are getting back are soft and mostly one-dimensional.

3.) White is useless (classic tweener who is too talented for the 3rd line but not good enough for the second). Bochenski might not develop either since he is already 23 years old and played alongside Spezza. Spezza will be a franchise player no doubt but why trade an existing franchise player for a young and less-developed one?

4.) They already have enough youth with guys like Erhoff, Goc, Cheecho, Michalek et al.

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05-02-2005, 03:13 PM
  #4
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San Jose would do this because they would be walking away with a robbery.

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Old
05-02-2005, 03:17 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yintin
San Jose would do this because they would be walking away with a robbery.
San Jose is a contendor right now. How would this trade bring them any closer to a cup?

If Washington offered New Jersey a deal consisting of Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for Brodeur and Stevens, would New Jersey take it? No because they'd lose their ability to challenge for the Stanley Cup.

I am definitely in favor of stockpiling young stars but a chance to fight for the cup only comes around once every lifetime and the window of opportunity may close any time. San Jose's goal right now is to endeavor for the Stanley Cup and they shouldn't lose sight of their goal just because Ottawa is dangling Spezza in front of them.

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05-02-2005, 03:30 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
If Washington offered New Jersey a deal consisting of Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for Brodeur and Stevens, would New Jersey take it? No because they'd lose their ability to challenge for the Stanley Cup.
You're overreacting.. The Devils would jump on this deal faster than beerpaul would mention Marc Savard in a "best player in the NHL" thread..

Point well made though, but you're overreacting. Martin Brodeur is 33, Scott Stevens is like 57. The Devils would be foolish not to accept this when it could mean the potential start of a new dynasty.

And yes, I also don't see the reason why the Sharks would do this.

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Old
05-02-2005, 03:34 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ott = Snott
You're overreacting.. The Devils would jump on this deal faster than beerpaul would mention Marc Savard in a "best player in the NHL" thread..

Point well made though, but you're overreacting. Martin Brodeur is 33, Scott Stevens is like 57. The Devils would be foolish not to accept this when it could mean the potential start of a new dynasty.

And yes, I also don't see the reason why the Sharks would do this.
I was exaggerating but I was trying to prove a point.
I couldn't find a black and white example so I had to make one up.

But I also forgot to mention Elias, the original example I had in mind was
Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for Brodeur, Stevens and Elias
I forgot to mention Elias and with his inclusion, it would be much closer.

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Old
05-02-2005, 03:42 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
I was exaggerating but I was trying to prove a point.
I couldn't find a black and white example so I had to make one up.

But I also forgot to mention Elias, the original example I had in mind was
Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for Brodeur, Stevens and Elias
I forgot to mention Elias and with his inclusion, it would be much closer.
I think this here would illustrate your point.

Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for.... Hossa, Chara and Redden.

It makes no sense because San Jose is in exactly the same position as Ottawa, one or two pieces away from winning it all. The fact that San Jose has the netminder to do it would indicate that they are even closer.

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Old
05-02-2005, 04:56 PM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
I know San Jose isnt rebuilding but I want to know if you guys think this is a resonable trade offer.

Spezza, Volchenkov, White and Bochenski

for

Marleau and Hannan

The time is now for the Ottawa Senators, it appears that Hannan is that perfect pairing for Redden that us Sens fans have always been looking for. Marleau is that first line center that the sens have always been needing and wanting he fits right into this age group.

What do you guys think?

Spezza is a true franchise player and it appears that Volchenkov is well on his way to a very similiar career to Yushkevich with more of an offensive upside already suiting up for Russia at the World Cup of Hockey. Bochenksi had a tremendous rookie campaign in the AHL with 34 goals and White is a great third line centerman who despite most Senators has been good in the playoffs.
SJ gets ripped off big time. SJ has many "white type" players and many "boch" type prospects, so they are useless. I will also take Marleau over Spezza and Hannan is a legit, top shutdown defenseman. No idea why SJ would even consider this deal. Marleau is also progressing and is turning into the face of SJ.

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Old
05-02-2005, 05:03 PM
  #10
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Not one of those players is established other than Semin while Spezza, Volchenkov and White are sure fire good nhlers. Redden, Hossa and Chara all have more value than Marleau and Hannan. Im not argueing that Ovechkin wont be great but nothing is a sure thing who knows if he will even be as good as Hossa is right now. Chances are he will be but you never know.

I dont really see how the Ottawa players are one dimentional and soft. Volchenkov is already a top 10 open ice hitter in the NHL. While Spezza isnt a powerforward he will dropem if he has to and he is great down low.

Ok well what would it take to get Hannan to Ottawa then?

Vermette and Volchenkov?

Patrick you have a complete biased against the sens and its obvious in every post you make.

While I know this isnt realistic for San Jose I was more interested in value wise.

I think if a poll were up it would be 50/50 on who most people would take Spezza or Marleau. Spezza will end up outscoring him but most likely wont have the two way game. But maybe im being biased.

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Old
05-02-2005, 05:10 PM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
Not one of those players is established other than Semin while Spezza, Volchenkov and White are sure fire good nhlers. Redden, Hossa and Chara all have more value than Marleau and Hannan. Im not argueing that Ovechkin wont be great but nothing is a sure thing who knows if he will even be as good as Hossa is right now. Chances are he will be but you never know.

I dont really see how the Ottawa players are one dimentional and soft. Volchenkov is already a top 10 open ice hitter in the NHL. While Spezza isnt a powerforward he will dropem if he has to and he is great down low.

Ok well what would it take to get Hannan to Ottawa then?

Vermette and Volchenkov?

Patrick you have a complete biased against the sens and its obvious in every post you make.

While I know this isnt realistic for San Jose I was more interested in value wise.

I think if a poll were up it would be 50/50 on who most people would take Spezza or Marleau. Spezza will end up outscoring him but most likely wont have the two way game. But maybe im being biased.
Spezza, White, Volchenkov and Bochenski are all one-dimensional.

Spezza, White and Bochenski scores and Volchenkov hits, none of them (right now at least) have the versatility of Marleau. Guys like White are also soft and lack the character of guys like Hannan.

There is no doubt that Spezza can outscore Marleau next year and there is also no doubt that Spezza will score 100+ points one day but will he be as valuable as Marleau to his team? Spezza was a healthy scratch in the playoffs (by Jacques Martin) and that should tell you volumes about his overall game.

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Old
05-02-2005, 05:19 PM
  #12
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San Jose would make out great in this deal. After more than 500 games Marleau is still a streaky player who can disappear for long stretches of time while Hannan while being a solid defenceman isn't a guy I would hold on to to get that type of depth in return.

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Old
05-02-2005, 05:21 PM
  #13
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White plays the PK and the PP, Alfredsson likes having him on his line because White allows him to concentrate on offense. White is a good 2-way player, part of the reason Martin liked him so much.

Spezza and Bochenski are pretty one-dimensional though Spezza has been working on his defense in the AHL this year, playing the PK and all but there's a while to go for him.

Volchenkov's as one-dimensional as Foote, doesn't make him any less valuable.

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05-02-2005, 05:26 PM
  #14
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Under Jaques Martin as a coach the Senators have been shut out 23% of his playoff games. I think that should tell you something about Spezza being a healthy scratch. Jaques was a terrible playoff coach he never tried anything different and never ever pushed for any offensive creativity while haveing the highest scoring team in the nhl. To say Spezza lacks character is flat out wrong he has worked so hard to get his skating and defensive game better taken his lumps and never said a word. Teamates in Bingo have been quoted as saying he was the hardest working player on his Binghampton team this season. While im not going to argue that he is a defensive stallworth he has worked hard to improve that aspect of his game.

White is actually better used as a two way centerman he has always been used as top 4 pker. Yes he is small but not soft he will always take and give the hit to make the play. Jaques liked his defensive game so much he gave him to much ice time in an offensive role resulting in players like Spezza being shafted.

Volchenkov's ppg is actually pretty good for a D he has good offensive instincts and hits like a bull. He is still young he has significant trade value.

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Old
05-02-2005, 06:12 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
I know San Jose isnt rebuilding but I want to know if you guys think this is a resonable trade offer.

Spezza, Volchenkov, White and Bochenski

for

Marleau and Hannan
While the value is fair or maybe even in favor of San Jose, I don't see the Sharks doing it for the reasons already stated.

1) We are already a very young team (with the losses of Ricci and Damphousse)

2) Last season was the Sharks best year ever, so why would they break up the team? Hannan and Marleau are two important parts of our core. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

3) While we have a bunch of young defensemen/prospects looking to make the jump(Ehrhoff, Preissing, Fahey, Carle, etc), most of them are offense oriented and not projected to be ubber shutdown guys like Hannan. Plus, Rathje, our other shutdown dman is going to be a UFA (depending on the CBA crap), so losing either him and/or Hannan would be a huge hole in our defense. I don't see the Sharks trading Hannan unless a young stud defensive dman is coming back to us in a package that overpays. I haven't seen much of Volchenkov to know if he qualifies, but from what I've read, Volchenkov + Vermette doesn't get me too excited.

Jason Spezza will probably outscore Marleau next year during the regular season. As for outscoring him during the playoffs, we'll have to wait and see.

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Old
05-02-2005, 07:00 PM
  #16
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Jovanovski = Norris
Spezza was a healthy scratch in the playoffs (by Jacques Martin) and that should tell you volumes about his overall game.-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and where did it get martin---fired for making such a dumbass move.when he played in the playoffs he did quite fine. everyone knows martin had it out for spezza and martin paid the price for his stupidy.

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05-02-2005, 07:03 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
I know San Jose isnt rebuilding but I want to know if you guys think this is a resonable trade offer.

Spezza, Volchenkov, White and Bochenski

for

Marleau and Hannan

The time is now for the Ottawa Senators, it appears that Hannan is that perfect pairing for Redden that us Sens fans have always been looking for. Marleau is that first line center that the sens have always been needing and wanting he fits right into this age group.

What do you guys think?

Spezza is a true franchise player and it appears that Volchenkov is well on his way to a very similiar career to Yushkevich with more of an offensive upside already suiting up for Russia at the World Cup of Hockey. Bochenksi had a tremendous rookie campaign in the AHL with 34 goals and White is a great third line centerman who despite most Senators has been good in the playoffs.
I think this is one of those proposals (like many Havlat ones) that tries to address Ottawa's needs but virtually igonores the needs of the other team. The value is always there but the incentive is not.

I just can't see San Jose having any interest in dealing Marleau and especially Hannan.

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05-02-2005, 07:09 PM
  #18
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as i see the sens having no interest in trading spezza.

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Old
05-02-2005, 07:52 PM
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
Not one of those players is established other than Semin while Spezza, Volchenkov and White are sure fire good nhlers. Redden, Hossa and Chara all have more value than Marleau and Hannan. Im not argueing that Ovechkin wont be great but nothing is a sure thing who knows if he will even be as good as Hossa is right now. Chances are he will be but you never know.

I dont really see how the Ottawa players are one dimentional and soft. Volchenkov is already a top 10 open ice hitter in the NHL. While Spezza isnt a powerforward he will dropem if he has to and he is great down low.

Ok well what would it take to get Hannan to Ottawa then?

Vermette and Volchenkov?

Patrick you have a complete biased against the sens and its obvious in every post you make.

While I know this isnt realistic for San Jose I was more interested in value wise.

I think if a poll were up it would be 50/50 on who most people would take Spezza or Marleau. Spezza will end up outscoring him but most likely wont have the two way game. But maybe im being biased.
OMG, how am I biased? Because SJ is giving up their best defensive dman and lethal in shutting down top guys and their top center that is still quite young and improving his overall agme each year for Spezza and add ins? Sorry but I would keep the legit players right now. Guys like Hannan are crucial come playoffs.

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05-02-2005, 09:22 PM
  #20
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as a sharks fan i like the deal value-wise. but the sens aren't the only team building for a cup run. the sharks aren't going to give up two team leaders for a bunch of young players. i wouldn't be so quick to dismiss a deal centered around nabokov + and spezza or havlat though, as i think toskala could be a more than able starting goalie, and i think it's unlikely that hasek will ever play a game for ottawa.

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Old
05-02-2005, 09:45 PM
  #21
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Terrible deal for both sides

I don't think this is a deal either side would want to explore. Marleau and Hannan is not a fair return for what is demanded of Ottawa. Hannan while a solid defenceman would not draw much trade interest as the free agent market is flooded with defenceman, and defensive defenceman do not fetch a high return in trades. As well, Ottawa already has their own Hannan-like player in Chris Phillips, who does the job much better IMO. Marleau is a solid player, but has pleataud offensively, at just below 60 points, while Spezza in his first full season had 55 points. Volchenkov gives the Sens another top-4 defenceman for the next 10-15 years so trading him would only be done to get a top power forward IMO, which Marleau is certainly not. I'd say that Spezza could easily be traded for Marleau straight up, while Volchenkov and a 3rd round pick would likely get Hannan, so I think the added elements of White and Bochenski completely skew this deal.

I don't think there's much point making proposals involving Spezza, as the likelihood of him being traded is about as high as Lebron James being traded from Cleveland.

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Old
05-02-2005, 10:26 PM
  #22
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Sens4Cup, I agree that the Sens would not do this deal, but you are either overrating Ottawa's players, or severely underrating San Jose's.

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Old
05-02-2005, 10:29 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
I don't think this is a deal either side would want to explore. Marleau and Hannan is not a fair return for what is demanded of Ottawa. Hannan while a solid defenceman would not draw much trade interest as the free agent market is flooded with defenceman, and defensive defenceman do not fetch a high return in trades. As well, Ottawa already has their own Hannan-like player in Chris Phillips, who does the job much better IMO. Marleau is a solid player, but has pleataud offensively, at just below 60 points, while Spezza in his first full season had 55 points. Volchenkov gives the Sens another top-4 defenceman for the next 10-15 years so trading him would only be done to get a top power forward IMO, which Marleau is certainly not.
How has Marleau reached his offensive ceiling? Heck, at Marleau's age last season Iginla was JUST having his coming out party. I mean Marleau was what 25 years old last season. Ohh nooo! Most players just start getting good around then. I don't buy that Marleau has peaked garbage. As for Phillips being a better shutdown defenseman than Hannan...wow. Hannan is so constistant its scary, Phillips only becomes like that during playoffs.

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Old
05-02-2005, 11:13 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
How has Marleau reached his offensive ceiling? Heck, at Marleau's age last season Iginla was JUST having his coming out party. I mean Marleau was what 25 years old last season. Ohh nooo! Most players just start getting good around then. I don't buy that Marleau has peaked garbage. As for Phillips being a better shutdown defenseman than Hannan...wow. Hannan is so constistant its scary, Phillips only becomes like that during playoffs.
Marleau's next season will be his eighth in the NHL, he has been around for a long time so maybe he is what he is and isn't going to break out.

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05-02-2005, 11:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Marleau's next season will be his eighth in the NHL, he has been around for a long time so maybe he is what he is and isn't going to break out.
You must also remember Sutter was the coach as SJ for a while and didn't play his young players as much as he should, this was one reason he was fired. I mean 25 years old for a NHL player is quite young. The guy was brought in at an early age and done well. He is still quite young compared to most "star" players. Marleau's biggest thing has been consitancy. IMO, he keeps getting more consiatant each year. If Marleau turns 28-29 and still averaging 60 points a year, then I would consider him offensively plateaud.

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