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Ottawa San Jose Proposal

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Old
05-03-2005, 04:14 AM
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
You must also remember Sutter was the coach as SJ for a while and didn't play his young players as much as he should, this was one reason he was fired. I mean 25 years old for a NHL player is quite young. The guy was brought in at an early age and done well. He is still quite young compared to most "star" players. Marleau's biggest thing has been consitancy. IMO, he keeps getting more consiatant each year. If Marleau turns 28-29 and still averaging 60 points a year, then I would consider him offensively plateaud.
Marleau has scored 327 points over 7 seasons and that's an average 47 points and not 60. Heck he has yet to top the 60 point mark in one season (he came close though.)

IMO Wilson installed a good defensive scheme in San Jose and the whole system is build around the defence and the most important pillar, Nabokov.

IMO Marleau is the better overall player while Spezza is clearly the better offensive wizzard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
How has Marleau reached his offensive ceiling? Heck, at Marleau's age last season Iginla was JUST having his coming out party. I mean Marleau was what 25 years old last season. Ohh nooo! Most players just start getting good around then. I don't buy that Marleau has peaked garbage.
For the last five seasons Iggy has scored 63+x points each season. I hope to see more of Patty and maybe Kaspar or Michalek can "tickle" a little, whenever the NHL returns.

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05-03-2005, 05:39 AM
  #27
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Being a Sharks fan, I have to say it's a fair offer, but the Sharks want none of that.

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Old
05-03-2005, 05:43 AM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Jovanovski = Norris
San Jose is a contendor right now. How would this trade bring them any closer to a cup?

If Washington offered New Jersey a deal consisting of Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for Brodeur and Stevens, would New Jersey take it? No because they'd lose their ability to challenge for the Stanley Cup.

I am definitely in favor of stockpiling young stars but a chance to fight for the cup only comes around once every lifetime and the window of opportunity may close any time. San Jose's goal right now is to endeavor for the Stanley Cup and they shouldn't lose sight of their goal just because Ottawa is dangling Spezza in front of them.
Are they a contender though? How do we know for sure they don't go back to the team they were in 2002-2003? They may look to be, but you take a package like that and run. One small step back for a huge step forward.

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05-03-2005, 10:21 AM
  #29
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
You must also remember Sutter was the coach as SJ for a while and didn't play his young players as much as he should, this was one reason he was fired. I mean 25 years old for a NHL player is quite young. The guy was brought in at an early age and done well. He is still quite young compared to most "star" players. Marleau's biggest thing has been consitancy. IMO, he keeps getting more consiatant each year. If Marleau turns 28-29 and still averaging 60 points a year, then I would consider him offensively plateaud.
In 7 seasons Marleau only missed 11 games, he got plenty of ice time under Sutter. And yes, he has been consistent, but not in a good way as in consistently not living up to his talents.

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05-03-2005, 10:48 AM
  #30
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For God's sake, who on earth thinks Ottawa would make this deal.
Give me a break. I like Marleau and Hannan, but im not trading Spezza and Volchenkov for those 2....NOT A CHANCE. let alone throw in White and a good prospect.

Its absolutely absurd in every respect and does a big fat ZERO in terms of addressing any of Ottawa's needs.
You don't give away players for a couple of guys who are barely better right now (if that is even the case) in an attempt to win right now, when if you stick with the 2 you have you are just as likely to win now and far more likely to win down the road.

its ridiculous and i LIKE both those guys.

Sweet Jebus.

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05-03-2005, 02:10 PM
  #31
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Anyone that says Marleau has reached his plateau is either not looking at the facts objectively, overstating to emphasize their point, is a youngster that doesn't know better or truely is smoking crack--Especially coming off the post season he most recently had. What percentage of players ever even get a play off hattie. Last post season alone, Marleau had TWO.

Back to question at hand... I agree with the general consensus. SJ doesn't do this deal even though the value is easily there.

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05-03-2005, 02:13 PM
  #32
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Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Its absolutely absurd in every respect and does a big fat ZERO in terms of addressing any of Ottawa's needs.
You don't give away players for a couple of guys who are barely better right now (if that is even the case) in an attempt to win right now, when if you stick with the 2 you have you are just as likely to win now and far more likely to win down the road.
What are you smoking, if uou honestly think Marleau and Hannan are ONLY marginally better than Spezza and Anton V right now? AT this point in the game, SJ players are clearly the better 2 players...CLEARLY.

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05-03-2005, 02:55 PM
  #33
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Yeah well atleast I know the value wasnt way off to bad from a Sens perspective San Jose wasnt rebuilding.

IMHO Marleau would score 35 40 75 if he played first line center on the sens. I think Marleau Alfredsson would have great chemistry.

I agree that Sens4Cup is massively underating San Jose's players.

Id just love to see a top 4 for Ottawa as.

Redden Hannan
Phillips Chara

What about

Volchenkov Havlat for Nabokov Hannan?

Id be up for it from a sens POV.

I only made this offer because a San Jose fan suggested Nabokov + for Havlat or Spezza.

What do you guys think?

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Old
05-03-2005, 02:57 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
For God's sake, who on earth thinks Ottawa would make this deal.
Give me a break. I like Marleau and Hannan, but im not trading Spezza and Volchenkov for those 2....NOT A CHANCE. let alone throw in White and a good prospect.

Its absolutely absurd in every respect and does a big fat ZERO in terms of addressing any of Ottawa's needs.
You don't give away players for a couple of guys who are barely better right now (if that is even the case) in an attempt to win right now, when if you stick with the 2 you have you are just as likely to win now and far more likely to win down the road.
Wow, you need to give your head a shake.

Scott Hannan would be the best defenceman on your team not named Chara.

Marleau is definitely better than Spezza right now.

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05-03-2005, 03:18 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by sharksfanatic
Anyone that says Marleau has reached his plateau is either not looking at the facts objectively, overstating to emphasize their point, is a youngster that doesn't know better or truely is smoking crack--Especially coming off the post season he most recently had. What percentage of players ever even get a play off hattie. Last post season alone, Marleau had TWO.
The playoffs were actually a good microcosm of Marleau's career. Six points in two games and 6 points total in the other 15.

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05-03-2005, 03:20 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by PepNCheese
Scott Hannan would be the best defenceman on your team not named Chara.
There's a defenceman in Ottawa named Redden also.

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05-03-2005, 03:40 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
What are you smoking, if uou honestly think Marleau and Hannan are ONLY marginally better than Spezza and Anton V right now? AT this point in the game, SJ players are clearly the better 2 players...CLEARLY.
Marleau reached 57 points in the last 2 NHL seasons, playing 18:12/game in 2003-2004. Spezza in his first full NHL season of 2003-04 played 14:38/game and has 55 points. Marleau was 17th overall in the league for centers while Spezza was 20th. Anyone in their right mind would choose Spezza over Marleau so IMO Marleau is not clearly better. While Marleau may be a better defensive player, Ottawa has many defensive minded centers with Fisher, Smolinski and White, and so the need for a 4th one is not present. Volchenkov would not necessarily be judged as the better player right now, but in terms of trade value, Hannan's would not be much higher than Volchenkov, as Volchenkov is younger and hasn't reached his offensive potential in the NHL. While some of us sens fans may overrate our players, Patrick-Flames Fan consistently underrates them.

While Spezza produced less points in 2003-04, he was also a plus-22, while Marleau was a minus-5. By the mere fact that Hannan and Marleau made the WC Team that does not make them better than Spezza and Volchenkov.

Ottawa doesn't have much space for another defensive defenceman in Hannan as well as they already have Phillips, and De Vries. Hannan's production in Ottawa would also likely drop, as he would be playing as the No. 4 defenceman, rather than the No.2 defenceman as he is in San Jose.

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Old
05-03-2005, 03:46 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
Ottawa doesn't have much space for another defensive defenceman in Hannan as well as they already have Phillips, and De Vries.
Hannan's production in Ottawa would also likely drop, as he would be playing as the No. 4 defenceman, rather than the No.2 defenceman as he is in San Jose.
You are grotesquely underrating Scott Hannan here. De Vries??? Give me strength...

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05-03-2005, 03:50 PM
  #39
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Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
Marleau reached 57 points in the last 2 NHL seasons, playing 18:12/game in 2003-2004. Spezza in his first full NHL season of 2003-04 played 14:38/game and has 55 points. Marleau was 17th overall in the league for centers while Spezza was 20th. Anyone in their right mind would choose Spezza over Marleau so IMO Marleau is not clearly better. While Marleau may be a better defensive player, Ottawa has many defensive minded centers with Fisher, Smolinski and White, and so the need for a 4th one is not present. Volchenkov would not necessarily be judged as the better player right now, but in terms of trade value, Hannan's would not be much higher than Volchenkov, as Volchenkov is younger and hasn't reached his offensive potential in the NHL. While some of us sens fans may overrate our players, Patrick-Flames Fan consistently underrates them.

While Spezza produced less points in 2003-04, he was also a plus-22, while Marleau was a minus-5. By the mere fact that Hannan and Marleau made the WC Team that does not make them better than Spezza and Volchenkov.

Ottawa doesn't have much space for another defensive defenceman in Hannan as well as they already have Phillips, and De Vries. Hannan's production in Ottawa would also likely drop, as he would be playing as the No. 4 defenceman, rather than the No.2 defenceman as he is in San Jose.
How can you even compare points like that? Marleau plays against top teams shut down guys EVERY NIGHT, Spezza DID not! By your analogy you would also take guys like Mike Ribero over Patrick Marleau because of pure offensive..which truly shows how bad your way of thinking is when comparing players. In the same light, Marleau had a ton more points per game in the playoffs than Spezza..so should I use your thinking and say Spezza is a downright terrible playoff player?

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05-03-2005, 04:00 PM
  #40
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What are you smoking, if uou honestly think Marleau and Hannan are ONLY marginally better than Spezza and Anton V right now? AT this point in the game, SJ players are clearly the better 2 players...CLEARLY.
im not smoking anything you pompous fool.

OTTAWA'S TEAM WOULD BE MARGINALLY BETTER WITH THOSE 2 PLAYERS IN THE LINE-UP.
DEFENCE IS NOT A PROBLEM FOR THE SENS THEREFORE PICKING UP A DEFENSIVE DEFENCEMAN WHEN WE ALREADY HAVE CHARA, REDDEN, PHILLIPS AND VOLCHENKOV IS ABSURD.
PICKING UP MARLEAU WHO DOES NOT HAVE SPEZZA'S OFFENSIVE TALENT IS ALSO A STUPID MOVE SINCE.....and let me type slower so you get it.... WE DONT WANT OR NEED TO REMOVE OFFENCE TO ADD A GREAT 2 WAY PLAYER.

The problem for Ottawa is scoring goals in the playoffs, not stopping them unless you count a goalie and since i don't see a goalie in this trade it is absolutely 100% useless to Ottawa.
We get a little better now in areas we don't need and make ouselves weaker in every respect over the long run.
So again ill repeat it. This trade is absolutely retarded from an Ottawa point of view. (not to mention the original trade also had White and Bochenski)

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05-03-2005, 04:04 PM
  #41
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Its amazing how many people dog Marleau's production, without even mentioning the systems he's played under his entire career and his linemates. Simply amazing...

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Old
05-03-2005, 04:21 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by Patrick - Flames Fan
How can you even compare points like that? Marleau plays against top teams shut down guys EVERY NIGHT, Spezza DID not! By your analogy you would also take guys like Mike Ribero over Patrick Marleau because of pure offensive..which truly shows how bad your way of thinking is when comparing players. In the same light, Marleau had a ton more points per game in the playoffs than Spezza..so should I use your thinking and say Spezza is a downright terrible playoff player?
But by your analysis Spezza gets 55 points because people don't key in on him. And how do you come to the conclusion that people don't key in on him. Even when playing on the 3rd line, he was keyed in on merely because he's a potent offensive threat. Spezza is 21, Marleau is 25. Spezza's played one full season and has nearly reached Marleau's career highs for points. I'll let Spezza's play speak for itself. Arguing with Patrick-Flames Fan is useless as he obviously doesn't like to hear other people's opinions. I guess time will tell next season if Marleau or Spezza produce better offensive totals. And as far as systems go, Spezza played under Martin, in a strict defensive system, though the Sens are the highest scoring team as they have far more talent than a team like San Jose, or Calgary for that matter.

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05-03-2005, 04:25 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Legionnaire
Are they a contender though? How do we know for sure they don't go back to the team they were in 2002-2003? They may look to be, but you take a package like that and run. One small step back for a huge step forward.
I hope you don't think Ottawa is a contender if you're using the above "logic" to discredit SJ being a contender.

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05-03-2005, 04:29 PM
  #44
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Its obvious that if Marleau was in Ottawa he would score more than in San Jose anyone that cant see that is out of it. Yes its true he isnt as offensively gifted as Spezza but he is better in the defensive end of the rink by a very wide margin.

Marleau in a Sens uniform would prolbably mean 35-40-75.

Sens4Cup you need to watch Hannan, he isnt an offensive defensman he is a defensive stallworth and no Phillips is not as good as him but they are very similiar.

I think you are one of a very few Pep and Cheese that would take Hannan over Redden.

I personally would make the original trade from a sens POV Marleau will not demand as much salary as Spezza in the long run and is a proven first line centerman. He also plays more of a playoff style with incredible skating quick release shot and he goes to the net hard. Yes in there primes Spezza will prolbably outscore Marleau by around 25 pts but I dont think the playoff production will be much different and I like his intangibles.

I will ask again anyone for a Volchenkov Havlat for Hannan Nabokov deal?

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05-03-2005, 04:41 PM
  #45
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Originally Posted by yintin
San Jose would do this because they would be walking away with a robbery.
I absolutlry agree, 110%.....

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05-03-2005, 04:43 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by bert
I will ask again anyone for a Volchenkov Havlat for Hannan Nabokov deal?
That would be a deal worth considering, but I doubt SJ would consider it, unless they think Toskala is ready to be their starter. Nabokov is a great goaltender and could be what Ottawa needs, but is expensive. From San Jose's POV they get a proven PPG right winger to play plenty of minutes, and a young defenceman who plays hard night in and night out. I like this deal alot better than any involving Spezza and Marleau, as that does little for either team.

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05-03-2005, 05:02 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by Sens4Cup
But by your analysis Spezza gets 55 points because people don't key in on him. And how do you come to the conclusion that people don't key in on him. Even when playing on the 3rd line, he was keyed in on merely because he's a potent offensive threat. Spezza is 21, Marleau is 25. Spezza's played one full season and has nearly reached Marleau's career highs for points. I'll let Spezza's play speak for itself. Arguing with Patrick-Flames Fan is useless as he obviously doesn't like to hear other people's opinions. I guess time will tell next season if Marleau or Spezza produce better offensive totals. And as far as systems go, Spezza played under Martin, in a strict defensive system, though the Sens are the highest scoring team as they have far more talent than a team like San Jose, or Calgary for that matter.
Yes, the other team keys on other teams 3rd lines... When a coach tries matching lines he will have his best guys on the ice vs the top 2 lines of any team, focusing on the top line. So if Spezza was keyed on every game, the other teams must only be using 1...maybe 2 pairs of defenseman and playing 50 minutes a game.... When a coach is matching lines, his shutdown guys are not on the ice when the other teams top lines are not on the ice. WHo cares about talent, this has nothing to do about a team's talent. We are talking about a handful of players not a full team..get over it. It has nothing to do with this thread, I have no clue why you are brining it up? The NYR had a ton of talent the last few years and where did that get them? You are so stuck on offensive talent that it is clearly blinding your opinion on overall game.

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Old
05-04-2005, 04:33 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Legionnaire
Are they a contender though? How do we know for sure they don't go back to the team they were in 2002-2003? They may look to be, but you take a package like that and run. One small step back for a huge step forward.
There's no way to know for sure of whether or not San Jose is currently a contender but it will only hurt for them to start trading away key leaders of their team and rip up the fabric of that team identity. No one can guarentee that they will continue to dominate but teams like Dallas and New Jersey have all struggled in the regular season yet they are still perenial contenders come playoff time. The Sharks have an intense, young and hungry team with a lot of depth and talent, all they need is to develop what they have and foster team chemistry for them to be a top 3 team in the league in the next 5 years.

I also don't see how this will be a huge step forward. Volchenkov is good and will likely be a very physical defenseman like Kasparitus but won't be as effective as a defenseman as Hannan. White is nothing special and small & weak players like him will be dime a dozen on the UFA market next season. Bochenski is also suspect. He is 22 or 23 years old and has put up relatively solid stats as an old prospect. I doubt Ottawa could trade White, Volchenkov and Bochenski for Hannan alone.

So this becomes a trade of Spezza being >> Marleau. Spezza is the only valuable asset that San Jose covets since the Sharks already have a plethora of young and talented defensemen like Volchenkov and the other two (White & Bochenski) are pretty much worthless. Spezza could be a franchise player but there are no guarentees on that. I doubt Spezza becomes more than an Alexei Yashin type of a player (the player he was traded for). This isn't a slight on Spezza's personality or leadership abilities but I foresee Spezza as a dominant 90 point NHL man who is purely offense at the NHL level. Spezza may crack 100 points one day as well but it will also take a long time. Why trade a strong, fast and proven 55 point two-way star and a Foote-clone for a budding superstar who may or may not realize his potential.

To be honest, I'd do a Spezza - Marleau trade straight up if I was the Sharks. However, I wouldn't throw Hannan away for Volchenkov, White and Bochenski.

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05-04-2005, 04:41 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by norrisnick
I think this here would illustrate your point.

Ovechkin, Fehr, Semin, Eminger and two first rounders for.... Hossa, Chara and Redden.

It makes no sense because San Jose is in exactly the same position as Ottawa, one or two pieces away from winning it all. The fact that San Jose has the netminder to do it would indicate that they are even closer.
While I understand what you're saying, just as a point of discussion, Ottawa would trade Hossa and Redden for the right package. Chara, on the other hand, is going nowhere.

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05-04-2005, 08:59 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
What about

Volchenkov Havlat for Nabokov Hannan?

Id be up for it from a sens POV.

I only made this offer because a San Jose fan suggested Nabokov + for Havlat or Spezza.

What do you guys think?
when i said nabokov+, i didn't mean nabokov+hannan. highly unlikely that the sharks would deal both.

basically it comes down to neither team is rebuilding. will havlat, spezza, and volchenkov be great players someday? yeah probably. will they help the sharks win a cup now more than marleau, nabokov, and hannan? probably not.

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