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Would these players have benefitted from a bodyguard?

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Old
05-02-2005, 08:26 PM
  #1
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Would these players have benefitted from a bodyguard?

I recall Mario getting hammered and hammered and actually stating that as a reason why his body had broken down and he was retiring in 1997.

And Guy would go into the hell of Boston Garden and take everything the Bruins would throw at him without retaliating or whining or telling Bowman to play Lupien or Bouchard on his Left Wing. Dave Hunter of teh Oilers went after him in the 3 games series in 81. Guy took it lilke a man. But Boutette stuck his leg out.

Orr was the subject of heavy bodychecking whenever he rushed. The famous photo of Phil Roberto kneeing Orr, the Quinn check, the fights with Park and others (950 penalty minutes in 650 games). And Orr was a dangerous bodychecker too at only 6 ft 190.

Rocket and Gordie would slug it out in legendary slugfests in between scoring goals.

Cam Neely - was he protected? Esposito. Hull was beaten by John Ferguson when Hull already had his jaw broken and wired shut. Scored 50 at age 33 before going to WHA.

Bossy was absolutely hammered by the Maple Leafs in the playoffs one year and damaged his neck (rookie year?) and played with a neck brace. Retired from all the pounding on his back.

Yzerman still lays on the body every opportunity and gets hit.

Woudl these players have benefitted from a bodyguard?

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05-02-2005, 08:41 PM
  #2
c-carp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
I recall Mario getting hammered and hammered and actually stating that as a reason why his body had broken down and he was retiring in 1997.

And Guy would go into the hell of Boston Garden and take everything the Bruins would throw at him without retaliating or whining or telling Bowman to play Lupien or Bouchard on his Left Wing. Dave Hunter of teh Oilers went after him in the 3 games series in 81. Guy took it lilke a man. But Boutette stuck his leg out.

Orr was the subject of heavy bodychecking whenever he rushed. The famous photo of Phil Roberto kneeing Orr, the Quinn check, the fights with Park and others (950 penalty minutes in 650 games). And Orr was a dangerous bodychecker too at only 6 ft 190.

Rocket and Gordie would slug it out in legendary slugfests in between scoring goals.

Cam Neely - was he protected? Esposito. Hull was beaten by John Ferguson when Hull already had his jaw broken and wired shut. Scored 50 at age 33 before going to WHA.

Bossy was absolutely hammered by the Maple Leafs in the playoffs one year and damaged his neck (rookie year?) and played with a neck brace. Retired from all the pounding on his back.

Yzerman still lays on the body every opportunity and gets hit.

Woudl these players have benefitted from a bodyguard?
Any player would benifit from a bodyguard, A player like Lafleaur or Lemieux who didnt fight would have been targeted less like Gretz was because he had a McSorley or a Semenko.

Guys like Howe, Richard and Orr who as far as I know could take care of themselfes and then some could have picked their spots more and spent less time in the box and took less abuse.

Neely was a very good fighter but for a large portion of his Boston career had backup in guys like Jay Miller and Lyndon Byers. His Injuries at least the main one with the hip was caused by a dirty hit from Samuelsson

Bossy and Yzerman had backup and good backup in guys like Gillies and Nystrom for Bossy and Probert and Kocur for Yzerman. I dont know if these guys were still around when they sustained their bad injuries but some of that has to go down to the fact that hockey is a very rugged contact sport and that is what makes it the great game that it is.

In any senario I dont see how having a bodyguard would hurt a star player or any player on any team.

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05-02-2005, 09:24 PM
  #3
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Haivng a bodyguard also doesn't take away from a guy's legacy. Let's face it, Wayne spent very little time playing on a line with Semenko or McSorly anyway...

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05-02-2005, 09:40 PM
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Mario could have used a bodyguard. Not neccessarily on his line but on the team. Probert didnt play alongside Yzerman, but his presence was there no matter what. And as for Lafleur, I wouldnt call Shutt or Lemaire bodyguards as linemates but he had Big Bird back there on the blue line. All Robinson had to do was skate up to someone and it was over quickly.

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05-02-2005, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Bossy was absolutely hammered by the Maple Leafs in the playoffs one year and damaged his neck (rookie year?) and played with a neck brace. Retired from all the pounding on his back.
Bossy had a guy named Clark Gillies, as you well know, riding shotgun for his entire career. Ultimately, as you also well know, hockey is not a game in which you can hide. At least not if you want to be effective. Average 50+ goals a game for the first nine seasons of your career(!) and you will have to skate into high-traffic areas and pay the price.

Of course, as c-carp states, you must protect your best players from having liberties taken upon them. But your best players must also be able to withstand hits, as they are inevitable, regardless of whether you surround them with five bodyguards at all times.

***

As you note, Tiger Williams took liberties with a rookie Bossy in the '77 playoffs, the Isles didn't respond, either with their fists or their play, and Roger Neilson, Palmateer and the Leafs walked away with a series victory. Fast forward five seasons and Williams, now with the Canucks, once again tried slamming Bossy every chance he had in the '82 playoffs. Only this time, the veteran Bossy and his teammates had long learned the lesson of how to make opponents suffer terribly for their over-aggressive ways (namely, through a lethal power play). Led by Conn Smyth winner Bossy, the Isles swept William's team (also coached by Neilson!) in the Finals.


Last edited by Trottier: 05-02-2005 at 09:54 PM.
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05-02-2005, 09:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Mario could have used a bodyguard. Not neccessarily on his line but on the team. Probert didnt play alongside Yzerman, but his presence was there no matter what. And as for Lafleur, I wouldnt call Shutt or Lemaire bodyguards as linemates but he had Big Bird back there on the blue line. All Robinson had to do was skate up to someone and it was over quickly.
What? Robinson was one of the nicest guys you would ever find. Irvin was quoted as saying if Rob had played football he would be one of the guys to pick his opponent out of the ground.

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05-02-2005, 10:44 PM
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
What? Robinson was one of the nicest guys you would ever find. Irvin was quoted as saying if Rob had played football he would be one of the guys to pick his opponent out of the ground.
I`ve had the pleasure of meeting Larry Robinson and he is a very nice person. That doesn`t mean he wasn`t a tough player. Don`t you remember him beating the crap out of Dave Schultz in `76? It`s like Clark Gillies, he didn`t fight often because everyone knew how tough he was and didn`t try to provoke him.

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05-02-2005, 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by reckoning
I`ve had the pleasure of meeting Larry Robinson and he is a very nice person. That doesn`t mean he wasn`t a tough player. Don`t you remember him beating the crap out of Dave Schultz in `76? It`s like Clark Gillies, he didn`t fight often because everyone knew how tough he was and didn`t try to provoke him.
Yeah but Robinson wouldnt go after someone who simply body checked Guy or pushed him to the ground like Semenko or Mcsorley would if someone even laid a hand on Wayne.

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05-02-2005, 10:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah but Robinson wouldnt go after someone who simply body checked Guy or pushed him to the ground like Semenko or Mcsorley would if someone even laid a hand on Wayne.
True and thats the Guy wanted it. Jean Beliveau threw punches and took hits too and so did Cournoyer.

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05-03-2005, 12:07 AM
  #10
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What hockey player wouldn't benefit from having someone protect them from cheap shots and abuse and unnecessary attention full time? (Although playing with a goon canpotentially hurt your numbers...)

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05-03-2005, 04:21 AM
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah but Robinson wouldnt go after someone who simply body checked Guy or pushed him to the ground like Semenko or Mcsorley would if someone even laid a hand on Wayne.
That's totally inaccurate. You could lay clean checks on Wayne all night if you wanted (that was extremely difficult to do thoguh sicne Wayne was always one step ahead) without facing the goons. If you took liberties though, slashes, etc. They would have at you...

Makes perfect sense

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05-03-2005, 07:28 AM
  #12
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SOme of those players DID benefit from having a body guard.

Penguins carried a good throughout Mario's career, he had a bodyguard.

Yzerman? He had arguably the most feared pair of enforcers in the league protecting him: Bob Probert and Joey Kocur. Probert was even on Yzerman's wing for a good chunk of his career.

But hey, why let facts and reason get in your way? Has not stopped you and K10 from trashing Gretzky for the past 4 months, why start now?

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05-03-2005, 07:51 AM
  #13
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Oh no, an elite player had a body guard. For shame. Still happens today. So let's knock Peter Forsberg and Joe Sakic for having Worrell/Parker/Rychel/Simon/et al over the years while we're at it.

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05-03-2005, 09:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil
Mario could have used a bodyguard. Not neccessarily on his line but on the team.
He had one. The guy's name was Ulf Samuelsson, and he dispensed retribution in a manner more vicious than Semenko, Hunter or McSorley ever did. Go after Mario and you weren't the target. The best player on your team was.

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05-03-2005, 09:45 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
I`ve had the pleasure of meeting Larry Robinson and he is a very nice person. That doesn`t mean he wasn`t a tough player. Don`t you remember him beating the crap out of Dave Schultz in `76? It`s like Clark Gillies, he didn`t fight often because everyone knew how tough he was and didn`t try to provoke him.
Big Bird also towered over everyone else on the ice in his day. Not many opponents wanted to deal with him.

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05-03-2005, 02:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Dr Love
Oh no, an elite player had a body guard. For shame. Still happens today. So let's knock Peter Forsberg and Joe Sakic for having Worrell/Parker/Rychel/Simon/et al over the years while we're at it.
You have to understand that this thread isn't about that. For Chooch and K10, every thread is about bashing Gretzky.

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05-03-2005, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by DrMoses
You have to understand that this thread isn't about that. For Chooch and K10, every thread is about bashing Gretzky.

and maybe if we all stopped responding to their chooching and goading they'd go away like those pesky monsters under the bed.....

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05-03-2005, 06:21 PM
  #18
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
What? Robinson was one of the nicest guys you would ever find. Irvin was quoted as saying if Rob had played football he would be one of the guys to pick his opponent out of the ground.
I dont think that he is saying that Robinson isnt a nice guy I think he was trying to say that he was quite capable with the dukes when he needed to be.

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05-03-2005, 06:27 PM
  #19
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On the subject of Gretzky never taking any physical punishment, Phil Esposito wrote about it in his autobiography a couple of years ago. Phil`s father, who lived in Sault Ste. Marie was raving about this "skinny little kid" with the Greyhounds who was going to break all of Esposito`s records. Phil wasn`t impressed, until Wayne actually joined the NHL and he played against him a few times. A quote from the book:

"Gretzky wasn`t good on faceoffs, but I had never seen a player who saw the ice like he did. He had eyes in the back of his head. He always knew where the puck was going to be. When you went to check him, he knew it before you did, and he knew what he was going to do with it before you had a clue. Wayne also knew what you were going to do with it before you did. He was just the smartest player I`ve ever seen, and he had the best vision on the ice. Gretzky could just see things. People would say to me "Why can` t you hit him?" I`d say " You can`t hit what you can`t catch." Wayne was too smart for the defenders."

Seeing how Esposito played in the NHL for about 18 years, he probably knows more about hockey than us.

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Old
05-03-2005, 06:59 PM
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c-carp
I dont think that he is saying that Robinson isnt a nice guy I think he was trying to say that he was quite capable with the dukes when he needed to be.
Yeah well I've never seen Larry fight because someone hit Guy the way I've seen Semenko and Mcsorley for Wayne.

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05-04-2005, 03:56 PM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah well I've never seen Larry fight because someone hit Guy the way I've seen Semenko and Mcsorley for Wayne.
You cant blame the Oilers for that though, having Sammy and Marty do what they did for Gretz was only common sence. You have an asset like that you protect it. Perhaps the Habs should have done it more for Guy.

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05-04-2005, 04:25 PM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Yeah well I've never seen Larry fight because someone hit Guy the way I've seen Semenko and Mcsorley for Wayne.
Name one time that McSorley, Semenko or McClelland for that matter ever went after someone who hit Gretzky?? I've watched more Oiler games than most and can't remember ever thinking that so and so is going to get it now because of hitting Gretzky.

The closest I can think is Neil Sheehy. He tried to get under Gretzky's skin with
numorous cheap shots but never dropped the gloves with any Oiler enforcer. I think I can remember Tikkanen taking him on though, hardly an enforcer. Hextall cheap shotted Gretzky a few times also without retribution.

You obviously don't like Gretzky and thats fine. I didn't like Mike Bossy. I do consider myself fortunate to have watched him and to witness 50 goals in 9 seasons. I do appreciate his talent, just didn't like him. I wished I could have seen Orr, Richard, Howe & Hull in their prime but I am fortunate though, to have seen Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier & Yzerman and yes Lafleur.........

I think you should consider yourself fortunate that you were able to witness a talent like Gretzky also, instead of obviously trying to cut him down with these weak, weak arguements.

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