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Goalies that exceeded expectations/underperformed in Cup runs

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04-30-2013, 03:56 PM
  #1
Big Phil
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Goalies that exceeded expectations/underperformed in Cup runs

Alright, I am going to put each goalie from each year into three different groups. First group is playing below expectations despite a Cup win. Second group is doing what is expected (playing what is expected of a Cup goalie) in a Cup run. Last group will be the goalies who exceeded expectations in a Cup run. These are often the Smythe winners. I'll narrow it down from 1970 onwards.

Played below expectations:
Dryden 1973, Dryden 1979, Osgood 1998, Niemi 2010

Met expectations:
Cheevers 1970, Cheevers/Johnston 1972, Dryden 1978, Smith 1981, Smith 1982, Fuhr 1984, Fuhr 1985, Fuhr 1987, Fuhr 1988, Barrasso 1991, Brodeur 1995, Roy 1996, Belfour 1999, Brodeur 2000, Hasek 2002, Khabibulin 2004, Giguere 2007, Osgood 2008, Fleury 2009

Exceeded expectations:
Dryden 1971, Parent 1974, Parent 1975, Dryden 1976, Dryden 1977, Smith 1980, Smith 1983, Roy 1986, Vernon 1989, Ranford 1990, Barrasso 1992, Roy 1993, Richter 1994, Vernon 1997, Roy 2001, Brodeur 2003, Ward 2006, Thomas 2011, Quick 2012

Any objections here?

Just to clarify a couple of things. Dryden in 1973 was part of a wild Cup final with far too many goals against by Chicago. Tony Esposito just played worse. Dryden also had some dull moments in 1979. Osgood let in three goals outside of the blueline in 1998, one of them a center ice shot in overtime. Then of course Niemi in 2010. He won the Cup for the reason that the Flyers goaltending was just worse. Michael Leighton in general.

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04-30-2013, 04:02 PM
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Killion
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Interesting thread Phil.... how come you didnt go back further? Some of us around here have the odd gray, some mebbe even white sproutin up amongst our antique hairdo's. So from pre Expansion in the 60's, certainly Sawchuks performance in 67 against Chicago, unbelievable! And Roger Crozier with Detroit, again, just stunning. Unbelievably acrobatic & gutsy. I'll leave the 50's to someone else.... but Sawchuk with the Wings? Frankie Brimsek, Mr. Zero with Boston in 1939?

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04-30-2013, 04:11 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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I think Brodeur in 1995 exceeded expectations.

He definitely played below expectations in 2001 and almost won anyway.

Agree with 2000 (met expectations) and 2003 (exceeded)

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04-30-2013, 04:18 PM
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Since the expectations for Osgood in '98 were "would he be able to step up after Vernon" I fail to see how he didnt meet up to them

As far as I remember it, he started as a weak link in the first two rounds but played excellent against the stars and caps.

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04-30-2013, 04:22 PM
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Bear of Bad News
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The numbers have Osgood as slightly above average in the 1998 Cup run:

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/osgood.html

As far as Dryden, he was above average in every single Stanley Cup playoff:

http://www.hockeygoalies.org/bio/drydenk.html

His 1979 was the weakest of the bunch, but if he underperformed, it was largely in comparison to his own body of work.

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04-30-2013, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Any objections here?
Quite a few, actually...

Yes, Osgood let in a few bad goals in 1998, but that doesn't really change the fact that he performed at a significantly high level after questions arose when Detroit fell into a 2-1 hole against Phoenix in the first round. He stopped the puck at a .931 rate over their subsequent 15-4 run. Remembering him for the bad goals is like remembering Martin Brodeur in 2003 for scoring on himself. Both situations are amusing in retrospect, but both goaltenders did a lot more to define themselves on those runs. Osgood responded to early criticism in a big way (.938 against Dallas). To say that Osgood neither played beyond nor met expectations because of the quality of shots that beat him as opposed to the quantity of shots that beat him would be like judging a goal scorer for not deking enough to make SportsCenter's Top 10.

Grant Fuhr was playing incredibly well in 1984 prior to his injury in the Finals, so while I believe his performance itself was beyond expectation, dropping him a tier for having been injured after a lights-out playoff seems a little off (same with Giguere, who missed time for family reasons). Not too many .910s in that era, and that's after going through the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best offenses in the Conference.

Brodeur in 1995 played really well - and certainly better than Richter in the previous season (who is on the higher tier). Belfour in 1999 (.941 in the Finals) and Roy in 1996 (.974 in the Finals) stood on their heads when they weren't having their cumulative numbers ravaged by isolated blowout losses to some of the league's best offensive teams.

Khabibulin has a very good shot at a Conn Smythe if voting is held after the third period. I don't know that anyone was feeling it in a 2-0 game when Calgary was held to 3 or 4 shots in each of the first two periods, but they exploded in the third and Khabibulin had to be brilliant - just as he was in the entire playoffs.

Osgood in 2008 was being talked about for the Conn Smythe too, and it's not like the Red Wings' first choice in net was going to win with that team. Babcock wouldn't even give him the start in the playoffs despite outperforming Hasek in the regular season. He could've been a one-and-done goaltender and yielded to Hasek in Game 5, but he shutout half a game in relief, stopped 20/21 in an OT win the next game, and shutout the finale with 20 more saves. Give him some credit.

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04-30-2013, 06:10 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post

Osgood in 2008 was being talked about for the Conn Smythe too, and it's not like the Red Wings' first choice in net was going to win with that team. Babcock wouldn't even give him the start in the playoffs despite outperforming Hasek in the regular season. He could've been a one-and-done goaltender and yielded to Hasek in Game 5, but he shutout half a game in relief, stopped 20/21 in an OT win the next game, and shutout the finale with 20 more saves. Give him some credit.
Are you sure about that? I remember Osgood being talked about as a potential Conn Smythe candidate in 2009, but in 2008 I think it was more along the lines of "good enough to win nothing more" (unlike aging Hasek who wasn't even that anymore)

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04-30-2013, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
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Are you sure about that? I remember Osgood being talked about as a potential Conn Smythe candidate in 2009, but in 2008 I think it was more along the lines of "good enough to win nothing more" (unlike aging Hasek who wasn't even that anymore)
Absolutely. In fact, I remember it so well, I remember you asking me the same question in 2011.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...3&postcount=66

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04-30-2013, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Yes, Osgood....
Grant Fuhr was...
Khabibulin had to be brilliant...
Yepp. I concur. Those 3 right there dont
seem to get the respect they truly deserve.

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04-30-2013, 07:25 PM
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Canadiens1958
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1960 thru 1969

Exceeded
1960 Jacques Plante, 1961 Glenn Hall, 1962 Don Simmons, 1963 Johnny Bower, 1965,1966,1968 Gump Worsley, 1967 Terry Sawchuk, 1969 Rogatien Vachon.

Met
1964 Johnny Bower.

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04-30-2013, 07:38 PM
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Killion
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1961 Glenn Hall...
Man I felt for Glenn Hall while with St.Louis late in that decade.

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04-30-2013, 07:59 PM
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Canadiens1958
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Pigeon Holed

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Man I felt for Glenn Hall while with St.Louis late in that decade.
Certainly understand your sentiments. However the 1967 expansion allowed many players to play outside the pigeon hole the O6 era had assigned them. Presented opportunities and perspectives.

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04-30-2013, 08:05 PM
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vanbiesbrouck belongs in the exceeded one. he carried the 96 panthers along with jovocop

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04-30-2013, 08:22 PM
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Killion
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Presented opportunities and perspectives.
It did indeed, enriching my own personal hockey experience & appreciation for the players, GM's, Coaches & Scouts considerably. A very interesting period to have lived through, particularly so during the period just previously, circa 67-68 through the rise of the WHA in 72-73
and all that followed.

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04-30-2013, 08:22 PM
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I'd add Giguere in 2003 for exceeded expectations.

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04-30-2013, 09:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Met expectations:
Osgood 2008
Yes, I'm sure everyone was expecting 35 year-old Chris Osgood to go out and post a .930 sv% with a 1.55GAA; very comparable to Roy's numbers in 2001, when he "exceeded expectations" to win his fourth Cup and third Conn Smythe in his fifth Finals appearance. Yes. Of the two, Osgood is the one people think of as more likely to post ridiculously awesome playoff numbers. That's exactly it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Are you sure about that? I remember Osgood being talked about as a potential Conn Smythe candidate in 2009, but in 2008 I think it was more along the lines of "good enough to win nothing more" (unlike aging Hasek who wasn't even that anymore)
Osgood was considered a favorite alongside Zetterberg, with Franzen and Lidstrom getting the odd mention.

Speaking of which... why isn't Osgood's 2009 mentioned here? Despite what the numbers, he was actually playing better in 2009 than 2008. He was a stone cold lock for the Conn Smythe as late as Period 1 of Game 7 of the Finals.

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04-30-2013, 09:23 PM
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Yepp. I concur. Those 3 right there dont
seem to get the respect they truly deserve.
You'd think winning 400+ regular season games and 70+ playoff games, and 3+ Finals appearances with 2+ Cup rings would get a guy more credit than "he was a product of the team he was on."

Regular season and playoffs combined, Osgood is 8th all-time in wins. That people refuse to give him credit as one of the best goalies of his era is mind-boggling. The following are the thirteen goalies who cleared 450 in that particular metric. In bold are the six goaltenders who have both 400+ RS wins and 70+ PO wins

PlayerRS WPO WTotal
Brodeur669113782
Roy551151702
Belfour48488572
Joseph45463517
Plante43771508
Sawchuk44754501
Fuhr40392495
Osgood40174475
Esposito42345468
Vernon38577462
Hall40749456
Hasek38965454

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04-30-2013, 09:25 PM
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Let's keep this to the discussion at hand.

We don't need a 15th active thread to discuss whether or not Chris Osgood is overrated or underrated.

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04-30-2013, 09:59 PM
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We don't need a 15th active thread to discuss whether or not Chris Osgood is overrated or underrated.
But Chris Osgoode "exceeded my expectations" Taco. Didnt think he had it in him. To re-imagine his game, himself as a player, as a person. I give him some serious credit for doing so, that takes guts... but overall "rating"? Dont really care, think about or reflect upon it in such terms. Could care less how anyone or group ranks him be it 11th, 13th, 31st. Dudes a Winner. Real deal. Survivor. A Goalie.

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04-30-2013, 10:23 PM
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Hardyvan123
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I think Osgood is a guy who exceeded expectations, especially in his 2nd run with Detroit and that last SC in 08.

I mean the Red Wings waived him and then NYI traded him for not very much at all before he resigned with the Red Wings.

Then in 08 he posts a .930 Save % at age 35 with his most previous playoff run being 4 years earlier with a .890%.

I mean almost everyone looking at Detroit in 08 would ahve looked to Osgood as being the place most likely for the Detroit wheels to fall off on that run right?

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04-30-2013, 10:37 PM
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Killion
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I mean almost everyone looking at Detroit in 08 would've looked to Osgood as being the place most likely for the Detroit wheels to fall off on that run right?
Pretty much Hv. The guy was looked upon as a 2nd Rater throughout his career. Grossly unfair. I dont care where people now rate him in the pantheons, to me, he showed character, an ability to re-invent himself & his game late in years and like I said, that takes some doing. Some serious guts & savvy. So sure, he surprised me, exceeded expectations. Its a good story.

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04-30-2013, 10:46 PM
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Not really sure about Niemi "playing below expecatations" as stated by Phil in the original post.

It was his first taste of NHL playoff experience and he played pretty much like he did in the regular season so at worst he met expectations right?

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04-30-2013, 10:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Exceeded
1960 Jacques Plante, 1961 Glenn Hall, 1962 Don Simmons, 1963 Johnny Bower, 1965,1966,1968 Gump Worsley, 1967 Terry Sawchuk, 1969 Rogatien Vachon.

Met
1964 Johnny Bower.
I wasn't old enough to see it but isn't a 2 game sample for Gump a little small? Nevermind I had the wrong year

Also the Habs had by 68 a 3 year trend (3 previous years with 3 different goalies as well) of reduced GAA in the playoffs compared to the regular season.

Gump by 68 would have been meeting expectations rather than exceeding them don't you think after 2 previous excellent playoffs and a GAA% of 1.98 in the regular season to 1.88 in the playoffs (Vachon also went down to 2.12 from 2.48)

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04-30-2013, 11:34 PM
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But Chris Osgoode "exceeded my expectations" Taco. Didnt think he had it in him. To re-imagine his game, himself as a player, as a person. I give him some serious credit for doing so, that takes guts... but overall "rating"? Dont really care, think about or reflect upon it in such terms. Could care less how anyone or group ranks him be it 11th, 13th, 31st. Dudes a Winner. Real deal. Survivor. A Goalie.
That's fine, in the context of this discussion.

The poster I'm referring to knows what I'm talking about.

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04-30-2013, 11:38 PM
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Quote:
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I think Osgood is a guy who exceeded expectations, especially in his 2nd run with Detroit and that last SC in 08.

I mean the Red Wings waived him and then NYI traded him for not very much at all before he resigned with the Red Wings.

Then in 08 he posts a .930 Save % at age 35 with his most previous playoff run being 4 years earlier with a .890%.

I mean almost everyone looking at Detroit in 08 would ahve looked to Osgood as being the place most likely for the Detroit wheels to fall off on that run right?
Except Osgood had already come in riding on the white horse and rescued Dominik Hasek from the "compost heap" behind the stables. He started the All-Star game that year (selected by the league as an All-Star, started because Luongo pulled out), and received Vezina/postseason AS votes. He was one of six goalies to receive a first-place AS vote.

If people expected Osgood to be the "weak link" on the team, then they either had a very inflated view of the team or a very warped view of Osgood's ability.

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