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Goalies that exceeded expectations/underperformed in Cup runs

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Old
04-30-2013, 11:41 PM
  #26
Kyle McMahon
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I don't know how Niemi is considered to have played below expectations. Most pundits considered him the one weak link on a powerful Blackhawks team. After he helped cost them the opening game of the playoffs by allowing a terrible goal he was written off completely. One bad game in the finals and all of a sudden the Hawks "won in spite of him". At worst he met expectations of not blowing the Cup, and he had several moments of brilliance that I wasn't really expecting so he exceeded my expectations.

I'd also suggest moving 1987 Fuhr to "exceeded expectations". On a team with Gretzky, Kurri, Messier, Coffey, and Anderson in their primes, it was Fuhr that had to be brilliant in Game 7 of the final to hold off the Flyers.

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05-01-2013, 12:41 AM
  #27
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Did not live up to expectations- Moog in 1990 for Boston....

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05-01-2013, 08:17 AM
  #28
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For clarification, Big Phil is setting the bar for expectations at what is expected from a Stanley Cup goaltender - not what is expected from this particular goaltender. It's an objective standard, not a subjective one. Niemi is a good example, because while he did better than what people expected of him personally (which was to cost Chicago a series), he was not as good as the typical Stanley Cup goaltender. In the four-round era, there aren't going to be many like him, because at some point, some team is going to expose and exploit a weak link.

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05-01-2013, 08:20 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
For clarification, Big Phil is setting the bar for expectations at what is expected from a Stanley Cup goaltender - not what is expected from this particular goaltender. It's an objective standard, not a subjective one. Niemi is a good example, because while he did better than what people expected of him personally (which was to cost Chicago a series), he was not as good as the typical Stanley Cup goaltender. In the four-round era, there aren't going to be many like him, because at some point, some team is going to expose and exploit a weak link.
Jim Carey?

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05-01-2013, 08:22 AM
  #30
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Osgood definitely exceeded expectations in 2009. He was 36 by then and just came off his statistically worst regular season in the NHL, and played even better than in 2008 (agree with "eva unit zero").

EDIT: Sorry, didn't read "quoipourquoi"'s clarification...

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05-01-2013, 08:26 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Padan View Post
Osgood definitely exceeded expectations in 2009. He was 36 by then and just came off his statistically worst regular season in the NHL, and played even better than in 2008 (agree with "eva unit zero").
I'll never understand the irrational hatred of him. If regular season or playoff wins or Cups mean anything he's top 40 all time. There's not even an argument for someone like Liut over him.

I'll never change anyone's mind though,
so let the hatred flow.

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05-01-2013, 09:23 AM
  #32
tony d
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Brodeur in 1995 exceeded expectations definitely. New Jersey winning that Cup was a huge surprise.

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05-01-2013, 10:52 AM
  #33
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Originally Posted by gmm View Post
I'll never understand the irrational hatred of him. If regular season or playoff wins or Cups mean anything he's top 40 all time. There's not even an argument for someone like Liut over him.

I'll never change anyone's mind though,
so let the hatred flow.
Generally speaking, there is alot of hate towards both Osgood and Vernon and all is based on Vernons lackluster performances for the Flames and Osgoods failure in a playoff series vs the sharks (both gets the detroit defense argument against them).

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05-01-2013, 12:02 PM
  #34
McGuillicuddy
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This thread needs more Andy Moog (1981 vs Montreal) and Steve Penney (1984 playoff run)

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05-01-2013, 12:21 PM
  #35
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Fleury in 08?

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05-01-2013, 01:36 PM
  #36
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Curious thread. While players like Dryden and Osgood in the examples given weren't at their best those years they were goaltenders for the favorites and went on to win the Cup. So wouldn't that mean that in spite of some subpar games they still met expectations by winning the Cup?

A goalie in a Cup run failing to meet expectations would be more like a guy considered a money goalie with past examples of greatness who melted down and prevented his team from winning. In that regard I can't think of a more glaring example than Billy Smith in '84. Given his Conn Smythe performance against the Oilers the year before, and his play in games 1 & 2, I don't believe anyone could have foreseen what would happen in the rest of that series. He was absolutely embarrased in games 3 & 4, and looked well on the way to being in the deciding game before Arbour mercifully pulled him.

Roy's collapse in game 7 of the Conference Finals in '02 would certainly belong here as well. No one saw that coming. You figured after his gaff in the game before he was going to shut the door. Instead it was over before the end of the 1st period.

Though his teams weren't the favorite, I also think Cheevers, for all his reputation as a money goalie, never wowed against Montreal in the late 70s. Perhaps he was past his prime, but he was never better than average in those three series. Except for game 4 of a four game sweep he was steamrolled in '77. He was better in '78 but after the Bruins had seized momentum by tying the series he laid an egg and was yanked in game 5. In '79 he sat the final five games of the semi-finals after putting a combined .780 save % together in games 1 & 2 of that series. Cheevers may have been playing against the finest dynasty ever, but he was in no way a difference maker in those series, in spite of his money reputation.

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05-01-2013, 01:43 PM
  #37
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Regarding two of the last three posts - the original poster was concerned with goaltenders' performances in Cup victories.

(Both of your examples are interesting, but if you're wondering why they haven't been brought up yet...)

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05-01-2013, 08:47 PM
  #38
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After seeing quoipourquoi's clarification... I have some questions about the list.

Mike Vernon won the Conn Smythe in 1997, and one may assume he is slotted in "exceeds expectations" in part because of that.

But as far as the Wings' runs to the Finals since 1995, I would rank the goaltending performances as such:

2009 Osgood
2008 Osgood

1995 Vernon

2002 Hasek

1997 Vernon
1998 Osgood

One must remember this when considering 1997 Vernon vs. 1998 Osgood: While both men had pre-prime Norris contender Nicklas Lidstrom, only 1997 Vernon had best-defenseman-in-the-world Vladimir Konstantinov.

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05-01-2013, 10:36 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
For clarification, Big Phil is setting the bar for expectations at what is expected from a Stanley Cup goaltender - not what is expected from this particular goaltender. It's an objective standard, not a subjective one. Niemi is a good example, because while he did better than what people expected of him personally (which was to cost Chicago a series), he was not as good as the typical Stanley Cup goaltender. In the four-round era, there aren't going to be many like him, because at some point, some team is going to expose and exploit a weak link.
What exactly is the objective standard of a SC winning goaltender?

My guess is that it is indeed a subjective standard.

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05-02-2013, 12:28 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
Regarding two of the last three posts - the original poster was concerned with goaltenders' performances in Cup victories.

(Both of your examples are interesting, but if you're wondering why they haven't been brought up yet...)
Ahh yes. Right. Reading comprehension fail(ure).

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05-02-2013, 12:45 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
What exactly is the objective standard of a SC winning goaltender?

My guess is that it is indeed a subjective standard.
By objective standard, I mean that we are not adjusting the bar as it relates to the goaltender (Osgood is held to the same standard as Brodeur and Smith; it doesn't matter if he was waived or traded prior to the run - something on which you were basing your argument). Really, it's all pretty clear if you read the first paragraph of the OP, Hardyvan.

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05-02-2013, 01:06 PM
  #42
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Basically every goalie to play against the NYR in the last 3 years. But that's more a function of overrating the Rangers offense. Holtby, Neuvirth, even Varlamov they all obliterate the Rangers offense.

Edit ohhh cup runs...well it was a cup run...just a short one

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05-02-2013, 01:51 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
By objective standard, I mean that we are not adjusting the bar as it relates to the goaltender (Osgood is held to the same standard as Brodeur and Smith; it doesn't matter if he was waived or traded prior to the run - something on which you were basing your argument). Really, it's all pretty clear if you read the first paragraph of the OP, Hardyvan.
It's subjective because the expectations of a goaltender tend to be set by their own previous play.
In my mind, no goalie has met their own expectations better than Roy did.
One could make a case for Brodeur but at the same time Brodeur's expectations were not as high as Roy's. Quite frankly, Brodeur's bar was not as high as Roy's and Roy still met his as much or more than Brodeur did.
Roy's absolutely ridiculous OT record and even his losses (lost more series in 7 games than in 4, 5 or 6 games combined) stand above any goalie period. Any modern goalie any way.

So definitely subjective.
It's the difference between holding a '94 Gretzky against an '85 Gretzky vs holding a '96 Sakic vs a '07 Sakic.

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05-02-2013, 02:09 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
It's subjective because the expectations of a goaltender tend to be set by their own previous play.
In my mind, no goalie has met their own expectations better than Roy did.
One could make a case for Brodeur but at the same time Brodeur's expectations were not as high as Roy's. Quite frankly, Brodeur's bar was not as high as Roy's and Roy still met his as much or more than Brodeur did.
Roy's absolutely ridiculous OT record and even his losses (lost more series in 7 games than in 4, 5 or 6 games combined) stand above any goalie period. Any modern goalie any way.

So definitely subjective.
It's the difference between holding a '94 Gretzky against an '85 Gretzky vs holding a '96 Sakic vs a '07 Sakic.
But what you and Hardyvan are saying is answering a completely different question than the one asked by Big Phil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
doing what is expected (playing what is expected of a Cup goalie)
I mean, I'm really just trying to help here, because so many people were naming non-Cup winners and taking umbrage to his list based upon regular season statistics that would have set a mighty low personal bar. What is expected of a Cup goalie. Not a question of what is expected of that specific goalie, but a Cup-winning goaltender in general.

I'm not saying anything that isn't in the OP, guys; it's just a matter of people needing to read it before posting their diatribe about how Osgood and Niemi were expected to be horrible rather than comparing them to a typical Stanley Cup winner.

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05-02-2013, 07:43 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
But what you and Hardyvan are saying is answering a completely different question than the one asked by Big Phil.



I mean, I'm really just trying to help here, because so many people were naming non-Cup winners and taking umbrage to his list based upon regular season statistics that would have set a mighty low personal bar. What is expected of a Cup goalie. Not a question of what is expected of that specific goalie, but a Cup-winning goaltender in general.

I'm not saying anything that isn't in the OP, guys; it's just a matter of people needing to read it before posting their diatribe about how Osgood and Niemi were expected to be horrible rather than comparing them to a typical Stanley Cup winner.
Once again, and I'm truly interested and have read and reread Phil's opening paragraph, what exactly is expected of a SC winning goaltender?

It's not stated other than as a general phrase.

By the very nature of how Phil put's it, it is a subjective standard.

Does anyone else know of this elusive standard?

One would think that everyone has their own standard or perhaps their is a statistical formula over time for the "average or expected" SC goalie performance.

Goalies really are hard to separate from teams and often they get more credit and more blame than they actually deserve, much like SP in baseball.

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05-02-2013, 08:33 PM
  #46
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Alright, I'll clear this up. My original intention was to rank Cup winning goalies. Did they perform at the level that we would expect a Cup winning goalie to perform? I am sorry, but green or not, Niemi did not perform the way you would want to see your Cup winning goalie.

As for Osgood, people fail to mention a memorable playoff moment in his career. They look solely at numbers. Vernon won a Cup with Detroit, as did Hasek and Osgood. The Wings won a Cup in 2002 immediately after Osgood left town (yes I know they added a couple other pieces) but I've always felt Osgood is interchangeable. This isn't spewing hatred about the man, but how many goalies in 1998 would have done the exact same thing on that Wings team? Switch Kolzig and Osgood and is there a difference? Not in my opinion, the Wings still win the Cup. 2008 is an example of a goalie who didn't get a lot of high quality shots against him. To me, that isn't a goalie who exceeded expectations, but just met them. Osgood has a few moments where he made bonehead plays, but in general he never cost the Wings a game. However, he just as rarely never elevated his play and stole a game. Not sure about the rest of you, but that's what I remember about 1998 and 2008. 2009 was a different story, he played what I would consider elite, however, no Cup.

Someone was asking about Dryden in 1979. Arguably his weakest Cup run. I don't think he played great at all against Boston and in Game 7 of that series let in some soft untimely goals. Guy Lafleur (and perhaps Don Cherry) gave Dryden the chance to redeem himself. But a bad performance in Game 1 of the final didn't help either even though Dryden ended up winning the next 4. Could have played better, that's all.

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05-02-2013, 10:12 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
This isn't spewing hatred about the man, but how many goalies in 1998 would have done the exact same thing on that Wings team?
The elite ones. 10 of his 22 games were above .940 (which is to say they were at or above the range of 16/17 or 32/34 with an average of 24.9 shots against). All ten of those games were wins. When he played well, they won.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Switch Kolzig and Osgood and is there a difference? Not in my opinion, the Wings still win the Cup.
A lot of Stanley Cup teams would still win their Stanley Cup with a .941 cumulative goaltender. If Olaf Kolzig in 1998 is your measuring stick, check yourself, because that was one of the best runs of the last 30 years.

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05-02-2013, 10:22 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Once again, and I'm truly interested and have read and reread Phil's opening paragraph, what exactly is expected of a SC winning goaltender?

It's not stated other than as a general phrase.

By the very nature of how Phil put's it, it is a subjective standard.

Does anyone else know of this elusive standard?

One would think that everyone has their own standard or perhaps their is a statistical formula over time for the "average or expected" SC goalie performance.

Goalies really are hard to separate from teams and often they get more credit and more blame than they actually deserve, much like SP in baseball.
You understood my post about as well as you understood the OP. Once more with feeling: I said objective standard as in not based upon the expectations of the specific goaltender (given your posts about Osgood and Niemi, you were clearly looking at them in terms of the low expectations about their ability). The phrase had nothing to do with what is or is not a typical Stanley Cup winner, because if we had a hard-line rule about what that is, there wouldn't be a need for a thread at all.

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05-02-2013, 10:37 PM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You understood my post about as well as you understood the OP. Once more with feeling: I said objective standard as in not based upon the expectations of the specific goaltender (given your posts about Osgood and Niemi, you were clearly looking at them in terms of the low expectations about their ability). The phrase had nothing to do with what is or is not a typical Stanley Cup winner, because if we had a hard-line rule about what that is, there wouldn't be a need for a thread at all.
Ok, how about the expectations of the team in front of them then.
Niemi only had to be solid and not give up too many weak goals for the Hawks to win. Osgood was in the same boat, a boat he made float at least once but also had sink on him more often IMO.
Fuhr didn't have to even be at that level, all he had to do was stop the tying or go ahead goals from happening for the Oilers to win.
Compare this to Roy who had to be his teams best players or pretty close to it.

So while your point about the goalie's themselves being subjective being not what the OP was asking. I think what a team needs or expects from their goalie in each final is subjective and changes from team to team, final to final.

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05-02-2013, 10:53 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
You understood my post about as well as you understood the OP. Once more with feeling: I said objective standard as in not based upon the expectations of the specific goaltender (given your posts about Osgood and Niemi, you were clearly looking at them in terms of the low expectations about their ability). The phrase had nothing to do with what is or is not a typical Stanley Cup winner, because if we had a hard-line rule about what that is, there wouldn't be a need for a thread at all.
You stated quite clearly what is expected of a SC goalie as being the objective standard.

An objective standard is a Benchmark, criteria, or model based on verifiable measurements or bias free (neutral) analysis and judgment.

Is it a save%, GAA or some combination of such compared to league average?

What exactly is expected of a "typical" SC goalie and how can it not be subjective?

As R71 points out different SC teams have different needs of their goalies, other than the general standard of making more saves is better than making less, ie. stopping goals.

Phil asks the question

Quote:
Did they perform at the level that we would expect a Cup winning goalie to perform?
But doesn't provide the answer, which would be the objective standard that you are referring to right?

What am I missing here, there is some assertion that there is a way we expect a SC winning goalie to play, or the objective standard as you refer to it as, but there is no description of this standard and certainly not an objective one.

All of the conclusions made in this thread have been subjective, not that there is anything wrong with that, almost all conclusions about hockey players are.

Or is it like Art, we know a guy under performs when we see it?

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