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2013 Draft Thread | "Falling Flat for Horvat"

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Old
05-11-2013, 05:06 PM
  #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fourier View Post
I have watched both a fair bit. I am a fan of both but would place Monahan a clear rung higher.

Horvat for me is more comparable with Lazar.
Yeah, I kind of worded that wrong.

I was trying to say that Monahan and Horvat aren't too far apart in the qualities(size, physicality, defensive play, face-offs, etc.) I'd be looking for in a #2C.

Monahan has the higher offensive upside and would be my hands down choice as a #1C between the two, but at #2C(where offensive ability could be valued less) they're decently close.

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05-11-2013, 05:07 PM
  #627
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Originally Posted by dnicks17 View Post
I think Lazar's upside is higher. He's faster and has a better shot.

Horvat will score more of his goals by driving the net and buzzing around the net, I'd say. Lazar will be able do the same, but he'll also have a good enough shot to beat goalies from farther out.
Lazar's got the tools, but his hockey sense in the offensive zone concerns me as far as his upside. Just look at Pitlick. Physical, great skater, and a killer shot, but hasn't put it all together

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05-11-2013, 05:09 PM
  #628
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At the moment sure, at the time of the trade less so. Voracek was a more proven commodity, but I'm sure that Paajarvi has a number of people in the hockey world interested in his services.
Voracek then >> MPS now, AINEC. And I'm a huge MPS fan.

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05-11-2013, 05:43 PM
  #629
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Originally Posted by The Nuge View Post
Lazar's got the tools, but his hockey sense in the offensive zone concerns me as far as his upside. Just look at Pitlick. Physical, great skater, and a killer shot, but hasn't put it all together
Unbelievable.

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05-11-2013, 05:44 PM
  #630
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
Voracek then >> MPS now, AINEC. And I'm a huge MPS fan.
Seventh pick in this draft >> 8th pick two years ago, AINEC.

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05-11-2013, 05:46 PM
  #631
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Voracek then >> MPS now, AINEC. And I'm a huge MPS fan.
I wasn't a huge fan of his back then TBH.

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05-11-2013, 05:48 PM
  #632
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I wasn't a huge fan of his back then TBH.
Either way, no point arguing the point. STL fans are hunting like madmen for a 1C and aren't interested in moving Berglund for picks.

As I'd thought but was hoping against, they're not interested in Gagner either.

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05-11-2013, 05:50 PM
  #633
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Either way, no point arguing the point. STL fans are hunting like madmen for a 1C and aren't interested in moving Berglund for picks.

As I'd thought but was hoping against, they're not interested in Gagner either.
Lindholm might be a good fit in time for them. Either way if we can't get him we may as well try to trade up and nab Monahan.

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05-11-2013, 06:47 PM
  #634
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Originally Posted by Hockey Buddha View Post
Nope. I don't think this team is all that far away. I think they will be in the playoffs next season and that MacT is the right guy to make that happen.

...


This team has been seven years removed from the playoffs. The team and fans deserve better. It is time for the team to pass that threshold and enter the playoffs. It needs a serious culture change to take place: some additional size and toughness to compliment the skill already in the line up, additional veteran leadership and greater depth throughout the line up will bring this team to where it needs to go. Chemistry will develop with success.

If MacT is the competitor I think he is, he will have this team in the playoffs next season, come Hell or high water.
I actually agree with a lot of what you say. MacT and management do have to address the inadequacies and deficiencies on the roster but unlike some, I feel they ARE more than a few pieces away.

I think it was painfully obvious this season that they are poorer defensively and offensively than we think they are. Yes they will likely improve (young teams generally do) but they are going to essentially need an entirely re-designed bottom 6 and they need size and grit in the top 6.

The defense obviously needs help in the form of better puck moving abilities AND better defensive skills in their own end.

Goaltending is adequate.. maybe even good imo with Dubby... but again a backup will be required as they can't bring in Khabi again and risk him falling apart at age 40+. Time to turn the page and get a decent younger backup/co-starter.

I'm looking at how badly the team was outshot, beaten on the faceoff dot and generally outplayed in both ends of the rink in most games. I don't think it's going to be as easy to fix as some think. I don't think they are a piece or two (or even 3 or 4) away from being a playoff team again.

Let's also look at their strongest core players... Hall, Eberle, Yak, Schultz, RNH, Gagner (and MPS if we can agree that he belongs in that core group as well).

Hall looks solid as a rock.. no worries that he will dominate and become a superstar.

Eberle has regressed and needs to get back to where he was previously.

RNH has injury issues to recover from and find his game again because he also regressed and we have to hope it WAS due to his injuries.

Yak... looking great and will only get better in the long run, but of course could also have a sophomore down year as well.

Schultz... offensively solid but certainly needs to find his defensive game and he certainly slowed down in the second half of this short season. We have to hope he finds his game again because he's obviously a huge part of the core going forward.

Gagner... looks like he may have taken that step up to the next level offensively but STILL has issues with consistency and the other factors that have always been there... mediocre defensive play, lack of a physical presence and inability to excel in physically demanding games and his ineffectiveness on the faceoff dot... are still present.

MPS... looks like he may have finally seen the light and is realizing how to play to stick in the NHL... but again he's a work in progress and we can't say he's a rock solid top 6/9 player at this stage. The chance for regression in his play is there as well.

In summary... plenty of holes to fill and even the "good" players have to either play as well and in many cases improve if this team is expected to become a playoff team with a legit chance at actually winning a playoff series.

I think there are too many fundamental problems with the roster on this team that trading the #7 pick won't solve. Again I'd rather have them add an elite prospect and let management do the hard yards in filling the MANY holes to make this team competitive again.


Last edited by nexttothemoon: 05-11-2013 at 07:15 PM.
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05-11-2013, 07:05 PM
  #635
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post
I think there are too many fundamental problems with the roster on this team that trading the #7 pick won't solve. Again I'd rather have them add an elite prospect and let management do the hard yards in filling the MANY holes to make this team competitive again.
This is my thinking as well. Management needs to find ways to fill holes without involving our 1st round pick (regardless if we draft or trade it). Even though its a deep draft year, I think our second round picks might be able to give us the best bet to return NHL players.

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05-11-2013, 07:21 PM
  #636
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Originally Posted by nexttothemoon View Post

Hall looks solid as a rock.. no worries that he will dominate and become a superstar.

Eberle has regressed and needs to get back to where he was previously.

RNH has injury issues to recover from and find his game again because he also regressed and we have to hope it WAS due to his injuries.
.
Why are people saying Eberle regressed? His play was the same as it was the year before, he just had horrible luck with the puck, and the shooting percentage of the whole team was crap for the first month.

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05-11-2013, 07:27 PM
  #637
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Why are people saying Eberle regressed? His play was the same as it was the year before, he just had horrible luck with the puck, and the shooting percentage of the whole team was crap for the first month.
He played with a broken finger.

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05-11-2013, 07:53 PM
  #638
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He also became even worse at back checking and for long periods of time played on the perimeter.

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05-11-2013, 07:54 PM
  #639
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He also became even worse at back checking and for long periods of time played on the perimeter.
That's just because he was fat and lazy this season.

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05-11-2013, 08:05 PM
  #640
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Seventh pick in this draft >> 8th pick two years ago, AINEC.
Really? Here's a list of guys available at 8 in 2011:

Sean Couturier
- 1.66 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Dougie Hamilton - 0.87 point/game, great hockey sense, great mobility, great size, average physicality
Jonas Brodin - nuff said.

Now let's look at who's projected to be potentially available at #7 this year:

Sean Monahan - 1.34 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Darnell Nurse - 0.60 point/game, great mobility, great size and physicality, good hockey sense
Rasmus Ristolainen - tough to use his stats to comp 2011 players
Nikita Zadorov - 0.40 point/game, great size and physicality, good hockey sense, limited mobility and offensive potential

Just being objective at what I thought pre-draft about these players:
Monahan=Couturier (wasn't too high on Cout pre-draft)
Hamilton>>Nurse (very high on Hamilton before the draft)
Brodin>Zado or Risto (very high on Brodin before the draft)

I'd say it's pretty similar...

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05-11-2013, 08:06 PM
  #641
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Eberle has not regressed. He played with a broken finger and anyone who watched the games can attest he missed more open nets than he has missed in his previous seasons combined going back to Pee Wee. Will anyone be surprised if he comes back and leads the team in scoring next year? I won't be.

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05-11-2013, 08:10 PM
  #642
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Unbelievable.
You're right. Sorry I dared question anything about the god that is Curtis Lazar

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05-11-2013, 08:23 PM
  #643
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
Really? Here's a list of guys available at 8 in 2011:

Sean Couturier
- 1.66 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Dougie Hamilton - 0.87 point/game, great hockey sense, great mobility, great size, average physicality
Jonas Brodin - nuff said.

Now let's look at who's projected to be potentially available at #7 this year:

Sean Monahan - 1.34 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Darnell Nurse - 0.60 point/game, great mobility, great size and physicality, good hockey sense
Rasmus Ristolainen - tough to use his stats to comp 2011 players
Nikita Zadorov - 0.40 point/game, great size and physicality, good hockey sense, limited mobility and offensive potential

Just being objective at what I thought pre-draft about these players:
Monahan=Couturier (wasn't too high on Cout pre-draft)
Hamilton>>Nurse (very high on Hamilton before the draft)
Brodin>Zado or Risto (very high on Brodin before the draft)

I'd say it's pretty similar...
So why in Gawd's name would one trade #7 Plus to St Louis for Patrik Berglund? I'll tell you why. Upside AND what has been beaten to death by nexttothemoon so brilliantly I might add(i.e. We are not a player or 2 away from contention here. We are deep in a rebuild whether we like it or not). DO you think Berglund fetches any of Couturier, Hamilton, or Brodin? I say not a chance. That's why you make the pick or trade up for your guy.

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05-11-2013, 08:24 PM
  #644
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
Really? Here's a list of guys available at 8 in 2011:

Sean Couturier
- 1.66 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Dougie Hamilton - 0.87 point/game, great hockey sense, great mobility, great size, average physicality
Jonas Brodin - nuff said.

Now let's look at who's projected to be potentially available at #7 this year:

Sean Monahan - 1.34 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Darnell Nurse - 0.60 point/game, great mobility, great size and physicality, good hockey sense
Rasmus Ristolainen - tough to use his stats to comp 2011 players
Nikita Zadorov - 0.40 point/game, great size and physicality, good hockey sense, limited mobility and offensive potential

Just being objective at what I thought pre-draft about these players:
Monahan=Couturier (wasn't too high on Cout pre-draft)
Hamilton>>Nurse (very high on Hamilton before the draft)
Brodin>Zado or Risto (very high on Brodin before the draft)

I'd say it's pretty similar...
You dont know who will be available at 7. Are you trying to tell people that the 11 draft was stronger than this draft?

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05-11-2013, 08:25 PM
  #645
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You're right. Sorry I dared question anything about the god that is Curtis Lazar
Sorry that I doubted your one live viewing.

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05-11-2013, 08:28 PM
  #646
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Sorry that I doubted your one live viewing.
Just because most of my viewings of him were on TV doesn't make my concern less valid

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05-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #647
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Would Tampa really take Nichuskin at 3????

(Got this from Tampa draft thread)

Bolt Prospects ‏@BoltProspects 3 min
Unless he's putting up a smokescreen, I believe Murray has Nichushkin ranked No. 1 on the Lightning's list. Yzerman can override that.

Bolt Prospects ‏@BoltProspects 2 min
Transfer issues could affect the pick, obviously, but Yzerman has never been one to draft for immediate results. He'll take best in 5-7 yrs.

Bolt Prospects ‏@BoltProspects 2 min
If comes down to player type for slot (i.e. playmaking winger for Stamkos), he could go Drouin, but said Drouin isn't MSL caliber.

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05-11-2013, 08:35 PM
  #648
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Just because most of my viewings of him were on TV doesn't make my concern less valid
How many tv viewings? What games exactly?

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05-11-2013, 08:36 PM
  #649
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Just because most of my viewings of him were on TV doesn't make my concern less valid
From what I've seen his issues aren't hockey-sense related. If anything that's his biggest strength, in all aspects of the game.

His limitations are probably lack of elite-level speed/skill/size. He's all heart and it seems to bring results.

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05-11-2013, 08:37 PM
  #650
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You dont know who will be available at 7. Are you trying to tell people that the 11 draft was stronger than this draft?
I'm saying the guys who went 8-9-10 in that 2011 draft are likely better than the guys who go 7-8-9 in this draft. Yes, I'll make that claim.

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