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2013 Draft Thread | "Falling Flat for Horvat"

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Old
05-11-2013, 11:01 PM
  #676
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Originally Posted by Blue Bullet View Post
I had Voracek at #2 in 2007. Still a big fan of him.
Hahaha me too. I wanted him ahead of Gagner but I warmed up to gags after a year with the organization.

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05-11-2013, 11:05 PM
  #677
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
No one has seen Lazar play except you. Not Pronman, not Button, not Mckenzie, not anyone that sits in Rexall place at EOK games. Just you. We get it. And you're not arrogant. We get that too.
Lazar is in the same ballpark as Erne and Horvat. However you rate those guys is where he should fall within which for me is around 20th overall give or take.

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05-11-2013, 11:05 PM
  #678
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
No one has seen Lazar play except you. Not Pronman, not Button, not Mckenzie, not anyone that sits in Rexall place at EOK games. Just you. We get it. And you're not arrogant. We get that too.
I didnt see Pronman, Button or McKenzie making ridiculous claims about Lazar in here. Just you and another guy who have claimed to seen him play a handful of times.

Ive seen Button at one game at Rexall this year. Doubt Mackenzie has ever seen Lazar live, maybe at the prospects game, and Pronman doesnt watch live games, so there's that. Why you would include his name with the other two is anyone's guess.

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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
He's who I was gunning for at #6. Was choked we'd gone with Gagner. Was also gunning for Alzner big time.

Then again I had Ellerby above Gagner in that draft
Where did you have Hall? Were you gunning for Sequin? Or Skinner?

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05-11-2013, 11:09 PM
  #679
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I didnt see Pronman, Button or McKenzie making ridiculous claims about Lazar in here. Just you and another guy who have claimed to seen him play a handful of times.

Ive seen Button at one game at Rexall this year. Doubt Mackenzie has ever seen Lazar live, maybe at the prospects game, and Pronman doesnt watch live games, so there's that. Why you would include his name with the other two is anyone's guess.



Where did you have Hall? Were you gunning for Sequin? Or Skinner?
But are you sure he was watching Lazar? I don't know how he'd be able to see Lazar if he was at Rexall Place watching a game. Apparently that's exclusion criteria for seeing Lazar play live.

Thanks for clarifying the part about Mackenzie as well. I can thankfully disregard his draft rankings now because he hasn't seen Lazar play as much as you.

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05-11-2013, 11:11 PM
  #680
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Originally Posted by Blue Bullet View Post
Lazar is in the same ballpark as Erne and Horvat. However you rate those guys is where he should fall within which for me is around 20th overall give or take.
Haven't seen much of Erne/Horvat. Hoping someone could rank them for me. Horvat's gotten a ton of hype in the past month or so. Must have had a big run to end the season and in the playoffs.

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05-11-2013, 11:12 PM
  #681
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
He's who I was gunning for at #6. Was choked we'd gone with Gagner. Was also gunning for Alzner big time.

Then again I had Ellerby above Gagner in that draft
I had Ellerby 10th so I feel your pain. That being said there has been a huge switch in what skill set is valued in d-men after the 05 lockout and I believe it took a while for everybody to figure that out.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...339&highlight=

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05-11-2013, 11:16 PM
  #682
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Originally Posted by Blue Bullet View Post
I had Ellerby 10th so I feel your pain. That being said there has been a huge switch in what skill set is valued in d-men after the 05 lockout and I believe it took a while for everybody to figure that out.

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...339&highlight=
I think Pronman nailed it when he said hockey sense is being valued more than anything else with defensemen.

I think a premium used to be placed upon size/skating/shot - but rarely do these things come together if a player has average hockey sense.

Just thinking off the top of my head about recent 1st round defensemen and their most-valued assets:

High IQ: Brodin, Hamilton, Alzner, Pietrangelo, Karlsson, Larsson, OEL, Fowler, MDZ, Shattenkirk, McDonagh, Kulikov, Voynov
"Nice Size/physical skill package": Myers, Doughty, Bogosian, Schenn, Plante, Cuma, Gudbranson, Subban, Ellerby, Teubert, Carlson, Josi, Schultz, Hamonic, Hedman, Ellis, de Haan,

Each side will have it's exceptions, but you're better off taking a high-IQ defenseman, regardless of his size/lack of elite physical skills, than one with all the tools but no tool-shed.

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05-11-2013, 11:20 PM
  #683
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
Haven't seen much of Erne/Horvat. Hoping someone could rank them for me. Horvat's gotten a ton of hype in the past month or so. Must have had a big run to end the season and in the playoffs.
He's almost singlehandedly winning games for the Knights right now.

Basically their Toews.

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Old
05-11-2013, 11:22 PM
  #684
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
Really? Here's a list of guys available at 8 in 2011:

Sean Couturier
- 1.66 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Dougie Hamilton - 0.87 point/game, great hockey sense, great mobility, great size, average physicality
Jonas Brodin - nuff said.

Now let's look at who's projected to be potentially available at #7 this year:

Sean Monahan - 1.34 point/game, great 2-way player with size and hockey sense
Darnell Nurse - 0.60 point/game, great mobility, great size and physicality, good hockey sense
Rasmus Ristolainen - tough to use his stats to comp 2011 players
Nikita Zadorov - 0.40 point/game, great size and physicality, good hockey sense, limited mobility and offensive potential

Just being objective at what I thought pre-draft about these players:
Monahan=Couturier (wasn't too high on Cout pre-draft)
Hamilton>>Nurse (very high on Hamilton before the draft)
Brodin>Zado or Risto (very high on Brodin before the draft)

I'd say it's pretty similar...
I felt that Hamilton would be the best D out of that draft and I didn't have Strome, Scheifele, or Zibanejad over Hamilton or Couturier. Had I been drafting from 1-7 only Brodin (who I hadn't seen) would've been left at that spot and there would've been a chance that a team would've taken one of the other 3 over him. It's not my fault that other teams decided to pass on those two, for all we know we could see Barkov, Monahan, Nichushkin and a few others fall to #7 and make Couturier and Hamilton look like minor steals in comparison to them. You never know when a team might surprise and pick say Lindholm, Nurse, or Zadorov, etc. leaving one of the higher ranked guys undrafted by the time that we step to the podium.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
From what I've seen his issues aren't hockey-sense related. If anything that's his biggest strength, in all aspects of the game.

His limitations are probably lack of elite-level speed/skill/size. He's all heart and it seems to bring results.
How about strength, grit, and physicality which are all things that we lack as an organization?

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I'm saying the guys who went 8-9-10 in that 2011 draft are likely better than the guys who go 7-8-9 in this draft. Yes, I'll make that claim.
It really is quite premature to be doing so TBH. Wait until after the draft is completed and then make that claim if you still agree with it. What if teams like Tampa, Carolina and Calgary draft poorly and Monahan, Nichushkin, and Lindholm/etc. are left and taken there?

Quote:
Originally Posted by raab View Post
I'd trade Strome, Zibanejad, or Schiefele for Berglund all guys taken ahead of the guys listed. Couturier is a wash as His upside is slightly higher then Berglunds. Either way Berglund would look good here and I could see him getting 30-30 playing with Eberle. We'd be lucky if we got a player of his caliber with the 7th overall pick. Same goes for trading it for Yandle or Shattenkirk. We need impact players now not in 3-5 years depending on development, if they develop at all.
I'd tend to agree unless Monahan is there, he seems like a guy that could help somewhat soon and he fits what we need.

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I said he didn't have elite size. He's only 6'. Not a big C like Monahan.

He's WHL fast, he's not NHL fast.

His shot is probably his biggest asset, I'll give him that. His playmaking is also really good, not represented by his assist totals.

I compare him to a pre-draft Ryan O'Reilly, but IMO ROR had more offensive ability in his draft year, specifically much better playmaker.
And why would a ROR type player be a bad thing even at #7? Unless of course Monahan is there.

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05-11-2013, 11:25 PM
  #685
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Originally Posted by The Perfect Human View Post
But are you sure he was watching Lazar? I don't know how he'd be able to see Lazar if he was at Rexall Place watching a game. Apparently that's exclusion criteria for seeing Lazar play live.

Thanks for clarifying the part about Mackenzie as well. I can thankfully disregard his draft rankings now because he hasn't seen Lazar play as much as you.
I would wager Ive seen Lazar live more than anyone McKenzie talks to. Easily. Same goes for Button.

Do you have a point?

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05-11-2013, 11:30 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I felt that Hamilton would be the best D out of that draft and I didn't have Strome, Scheifele, or Zibanejad over Hamilton or Couturier. Had I been drafting from 1-7 only Brodin (who I hadn't seen) would've been left at that spot and there would've been a chance that a team would've taken one of the other 3 over him. It's not my fault that other teams decided to pass on those two, for all we know we could see Barkov, Monahan, Nichushkin and a few others fall to #7 and make Couturier and Hamilton look like minor steals in comparison to them. You never know when a team might surprise and pick say Lindholm, Nurse, or Zadorov, etc. leaving one of the higher ranked guys undrafted by the time that we step to the podium.

How about strength, grit, and physicality which are all things that we lack as an organization?

It really is quite premature to be doing so TBH. Wait until after the draft is completed and then make that claim if you still agree with it. What if teams like Tampa, Carolina and Calgary draft poorly and Monahan, Nichushkin, and Lindholm/etc. are left and taken there?


And why would a ROR type player be a bad thing even at #7? Unless of course Monahan is there.
I agree with everything you say. It was unexpected to see Cout/Hamilton drop the way they did, but it happened. And it wasn't out of nowhere - there was a lot of pre-draft talk of Cout and Hamilton dropping. That being said, I am going to maintain my prediction that Cout/Hamilton/Brodin are better than the 7/8/9 of this draft if it indeed turns out to be the likes of Monahan/Nurse/Risto.

We can only hope that the Oilers are able to take a stab at Lindholm/Nichushkin/Barkov at #7.

And there's nothing wrong with an ROR-type at #7. If it was a sure thing. I compared Lazar's skill-set and ability to ROR at the same age. What ROR did with that skill-set coming out of the CHL was very rare and unpredictable. Plenty of players have presented the same way at draft time without that kind of NHL success.
That's why I wouldn't be thrilled with Lazar at #7.

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05-11-2013, 11:32 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would wager Ive seen Lazar live more than anyone McKenzie talks to. Easily. Same goes for Button.

Do you have a point?
Yeah, that you don't need to see a player play 100x to formulate a knowledgeable opinion of them.

A cardiologist can listen to a heartbeat for 5 seconds and come up with a diagnosis better than a GP can if he listened to it for 2 minutes. That's the difference between Mckenzie and you.

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05-11-2013, 11:33 PM
  #688
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Yeah, that you don't need to see a player play 100x to formulate a knowledgeable opinion of them.
Or even five or six times apparently.

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05-11-2013, 11:38 PM
  #689
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If Monahan is gone, I really would push to move the pick to Philly for Couturier.

Nurse + Teubert should do it I think.

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05-11-2013, 11:50 PM
  #690
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Or even five or six times apparently.
Well if it takes you 100 games to pick up what most can do in 4-5 over 4-5 months then you've got other things to worry about.

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05-11-2013, 11:57 PM
  #691
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Enough of the bickering crap if you guys want to keep posting in this thread.

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05-12-2013, 12:05 AM
  #692
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If Monahan is gone, I really would push to move the pick to Philly for Couturier.

Nurse + Teubert should do it I think.
Don't you feel they're more in a win-now mode than to deal for Nurse? I feel they'd rather package Couturier with assets to acquire an NHL-ready top-4 defenseman than trade him for someone even younger that's likely 2-3 years away from that level.

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05-12-2013, 12:21 AM
  #693
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Yeah Horvat 2 more goals tonight Knights force Game 7

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05-12-2013, 12:22 AM
  #694
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Would Tampa really take Nichuskin at 3????

(Got this from Tampa draft thread)

Bolt Prospects ‏@BoltProspects 3 min
Unless he's putting up a smokescreen, I believe Murray has Nichushkin ranked No. 1 on the Lightning's list. Yzerman can override that.

Bolt Prospects ‏@BoltProspects 2 min
Transfer issues could affect the pick, obviously, but Yzerman has never been one to draft for immediate results. He'll take best in 5-7 yrs.

Bolt Prospects ‏@BoltProspects 2 min
If comes down to player type for slot (i.e. playmaking winger for Stamkos), he could go Drouin, but said Drouin isn't MSL caliber.
If that is true, Nash jumps all over Drouin at 4, MacT better be making a deal with the Canes for 5 to take Barkov.

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05-12-2013, 01:26 AM
  #695
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If that is true, Nash jumps all over Drouin at 4, MacT better be making a deal with the Canes for 5 to take Barkov.
I'm not sure about that, they may go after Barkov there TBH, which means that the possible BPA in the draft falls all the way to Carolina at 5 leaving Calgary to take Monahan and us taking whoever if we keep the pick.

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05-12-2013, 01:32 AM
  #696
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I'm not sure about that, they may go after Barkov there TBH, which means that the possible BPA in the draft falls all the way to Carolina at 5 leaving Calgary to take Monahan and us taking whoever if we keep the pick.
I dunno. Nashville can't score, and that's the one thing Drouin can do. I have trouble seeing them pass on him given the chance.

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05-12-2013, 01:46 AM
  #697
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I dunno. Nashville can't score, and that's the one thing Drouin can do. I have trouble seeing them pass on him given the chance.
He would definitely be the best offensive player available there. It would be an interesting decision for them TBH. I doubt that Carolina would trade down if Drouin was still on the board but maybe they would if it was Barkov.

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05-12-2013, 02:06 AM
  #698
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Well if Tampa bay is really considering or will go with Nichushkin could we not trade with them depending what Carolina does I suppose. But if the pass on drouin you almost have to trade with the canes because there is then a good chance at Barkov

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05-12-2013, 02:20 AM
  #699
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Curtis Lazar a lot of people talking about him so I trout I would give my two cents. I feel even though I have not seen him as much as others but enough that he is not a player I would draft in the top ten. He is not a bad player but I don't feel he has that next level potential mystique that some guys have. He to me is a safer pick a guy who will be a solid third line centre or right winger who will bring a 200 foot game with grit and toughness with the ability to punch in some goals. I could see him moving up into a top six role but I feel he is best suited as a third line guy who would be considered one of the top guys in that regard but he can slide up due to injury and team makeup would be fine.

I have no idea if that helps but that's how I feel.

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05-12-2013, 02:31 AM
  #700
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Curtis Lazar a lot of people talking about him so I trout I would give my two cents. I feel even though I have not seen him as much as others but enough that he is not a player I would draft in the top ten. He is not a bad player but I don't feel he has that next level potential mystique that some guys have. He to me is a safer pick a guy who will be a solid third line centre or right winger who will bring a 200 foot game with grit and toughness with the ability to punch in some goals. I could see him moving up into a top six role but I feel he is best suited as a third line guy who would be considered one of the top guys in that regard but he can slide up due to injury and team makeup would be fine.

I have no idea if that helps but that's how I feel.
I agree with you. I think he'll be an elite 3rd line center, but just doesn't have the consistent offense to be a top 6 guy.

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