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2013 Draft Thread | "Falling Flat for Horvat"

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Old
05-14-2013, 10:58 AM
  #826
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Ive seen Monahan and Nurse play, albeit on TV and not live and I think both would be good options for our pick/club.

I dont pretend to be an expert on the draft and all the players, but I will try to give my two cents on players who I do know well, when nonsense about them is being bandied about by people who obviously dont know what they are talking about.
You don't pretend? You attack everyone that says something bad about Lazar.

Whether you are right or wrong, you are pretending to know everything about Lazar.

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05-14-2013, 11:02 AM
  #827
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
You don't pretend? You attack everyone that says something bad about Lazar.

Whether you are right or wrong, you are pretending to know everything about Lazar.
Like I said, when ignorance masquerades as authority on a subject I know well, I will confront it.

I dont know everything about anything, but I have seen Lazar a lot over the last couple of years, and probably know much more about him than most.

If you dont want to profit from that, that is your choice. I tend to appreciate those who have the opportunity and the courtesy to give me information that I do not have access to.

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05-14-2013, 11:09 AM
  #828
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Like I said, when ignorance masquerades as authority on a subject I know well, I will confront it.

I dont know everything about anything, but I have seen Lazar a lot over the last couple of years, and probably know much more about him than most.

If you dont want to profit from that, that is your choice. I tend to appreciate those who have the opportunity and the courtesy to give me information that I do not have access to.
Even if you're not biased, can you accept the fact that not everyone knows you personally and can't take your opinion as gospel?

I mean I'm sure Player X's parents saw him live more than anyone but it doesn't mean I'd trust what they say.

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05-14-2013, 11:13 AM
  #829
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Originally Posted by AUAIOMRN View Post
Even if you're not biased, can you accept the fact that not everyone knows you personally and can't take your opinion as gospel?

I mean I'm sure Player X's parents saw him live more than anyone but it doesn't mean I'd trust what they say.
I would say dont trust what anyone says. Trust what YOU see. That is what I do.

However, after a period of time, I learn who to trust on the "internet" as far as their take on prospects, players or the game in general, and that can be different for everyone.

My observation is that many posters who "follow" prospects dont really watch the players much or even at all in some cases. They just read what other sources are saying and use that as their "perspective". That is something that I totally disagree with. Watch the players as much as you can and form your own opinions. That would be my advice.

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05-14-2013, 11:13 AM
  #830
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Because if mid-rounders are becoming O'Reilly then this is the best draft since 2003. O'Reilly wasn't a solid bet to be O'Reilly.
So you are saying drafting a player with the expectation to be a good player, not a potential superstar, reflects on the quality of the draft? I don't follow.

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None of that matters except in relation to other players.
It matters without question. Those skills give you an image of the future player. The only thing scouts don't like about Lazar is his offensive upside, which I agree with. I don't think he's an 80 point player at the next level. But I don't need him to be either. I need him to bring the intangible game he has already shown he is capable of, any offensive upside is gravy.

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Honestly to me that just says you have tunnel vision. You want "your guy" to be great, so you convince yourself first. Being an expert on Lazar doesn't make you an expert on the other players he's competing against.
I already said if Barkov, Monahan, Lindholm are gone, I take Lazar over Nurse, no tunnel vision in that. You are acting like I'm pushing him into the top 5.


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Originally Posted by AUAIOMRN View Post
Ok, well yeah I'll agree with that. Pronger's one of the top few defenseman of his generation, I don't think it's realistic to expect anyone to compare to him. But Nurse doesn't need to be anywhere near that level to be a huge asset for us.
I don't believe a non-superstar Nurse is as valuable as a non-superstar Lazar. I do believe if Nurse reached his full potential, highest upside, he is the clear choice. The history of players like Nurse reaching that level isn't that encouraging, especially the defenseman taken early in the draft.

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05-14-2013, 11:24 AM
  #831
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So, where is Anaheim's second rounder going to end up?

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05-14-2013, 11:33 AM
  #832
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Originally Posted by Redwood Original View Post
So you are saying drafting a player with the expectation to be a good player, not a potential superstar, reflects on the quality of the draft? I don't follow.
I think the issue is that I view O'Reilly as a considerably better player than you do. If Barkov became O'Reilly whoever drafted him would be quite happy (even if his absolute ceiling is higher).

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05-14-2013, 11:35 AM
  #833
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
I'm not sure if anyone has seen this video of Nichushkin or not, but all that I've got to say is wow.
Looks like he is great at protecting the puck but not sure how these 1 on 3s will work in NHL..

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05-14-2013, 11:38 AM
  #834
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Originally Posted by AUAIOMRN View Post
I think the issue is that I view O'Reilly as a considerably better player than you do. If Barkov became O'Reilly whoever drafted him would be quite happy (even if his absolute ceiling is higher).
That's fair, and a whole different debate I suppose.

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05-14-2013, 11:50 AM
  #835
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would say dont trust what anyone says. Trust what YOU see. That is what I do.

However, after a period of time, I learn who to trust on the "internet" as far as their take on prospects, players or the game in general, and that can be different for everyone.

My observation is that many posters who "follow" prospects dont really watch the players much or even at all in some cases. They just read what other sources are saying and use that as their "perspective". That is something that I totally disagree with. Watch the players as much as you can and form your own opinions. That would be my advice.
Here, here, good write up IATL.

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05-14-2013, 11:58 AM
  #836
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would say dont trust what anyone says. Trust what YOU see. That is what I do.

However, after a period of time, I learn who to trust on the "internet" as far as their take on prospects, players or the game in general, and that can be different for everyone.

My observation is that many posters who "follow" prospects dont really watch the players much or even at all in some cases. They just read what other sources are saying and use that as their "perspective". That is something that I totally disagree with. Watch the players as much as you can and form your own opinions. That would be my advice.
I agree. It's like 2011 when I was really pushing for us to find a way to trade up for Hamilton. I had probable seen him play live 50+ times before the draft, so I was confident in giving my opinion on him. (I also had the privilege to compare him to Pietrangelo from a few years before)

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05-14-2013, 12:03 PM
  #837
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Ive seen Monahan and Nurse play, albeit on TV and not live and I think both would be good options for our pick/club.

I dont pretend to be an expert on the draft and all the players, but I will try to give my two cents on players who I do know well, when nonsense about them is being bandied about by people who obviously dont know what they are talking about.
Ok, then what's a legitimate concern to have over Lazar in your opinion? Any time someone says a single word that isn't praising him, you say its ridiculous, but nobody's perfect

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05-14-2013, 12:07 PM
  #838
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would say dont trust what anyone says. Trust what YOU see. That is what I do.

However, after a period of time, I learn who to trust on the "internet" as far as their take on prospects, players or the game in general, and that can be different for everyone.

My observation is that many posters who "follow" prospects dont really watch the players much or even at all in some cases. They just read what other sources are saying and use that as their "perspective". That is something that I totally disagree with. Watch the players as much as you can and form your own opinions. That would be my advice.

So we should all take your opinion on draftable players because you have seen some of them 100 times and others once or never and ignore the legion of scouting resources out there and guys like Bob Mackenzie that actually talks to real scouts?

Gotcha!

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05-14-2013, 12:11 PM
  #839
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So we should all take your opinion on draftable players because you have seen some of them 100 times and others once or never and ignore the legion of scouting resources out there and guys like Bob Mackenzie that actually talks to real scouts?

Gotcha!
Depends... I've probably seen any ice dogs prospect way more than any of the people who put together these lists.

I remember before the '11 draft, talking to Kevin Lowe around Christmas, and he was raving about Strome, and about how great he'd look between Hall and Eberle. I told him at the time I felt Hamilton was the better prospect, and still think so to this day. I don't care how cocky I sound, I liked my 50 viewings over his 2 or 3.

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05-14-2013, 12:13 PM
  #840
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Originally Posted by notloilersfan View Post
I agree. It's like 2011 when I was really pushing for us to find a way to trade up for Hamilton. I had probable seen him play live 50+ times before the draft, so I was confident in giving my opinion on him. (I also had the privilege to compare him to Pietrangelo from a few years before)
You are one of those who I do trust when it comes to OHL prospects and Niagra players in particular because you have first hand live viewings that I do not have, as well as having a good handle on the game and players in general.

I wouldnt think of engaging you in a "dont think so" argument having no viewings of my own to back up my uninformed opinions. Apparently that isnt a problem for others.

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Ok, then what's a legitimate concern to have over Lazar in your opinion? Any time someone says a single word that isn't praising him, you say its ridiculous, but nobody's perfect
I would say it is yet to be known where exactly he falls in the spectrum of an nhl player. Could he be a top six center? Or will he be more of a third line defensive guy? Will he be a winger instead? To me, none of that is particularly concerning as an Oiler fan because Lazar's game is so complete and versatile. Would it be the end of the world if he doesnt replace Gagner but instead replaces Horcoff?

I dont think so, as both will need to be replaced in the very near future.

Nobody is perfect, but those with little or no viewings regurgitating stuff theyve read like "questionable offensive upside" for a guy who led one of the best teams in the CHL in goal scoring and had more goals than Hunter Shinkaruk is highly questionable bordering on outright ludicrous.

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05-14-2013, 12:16 PM
  #841
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
So we should all take your opinion on draftable players because you have seen some of them 100 times and others once or never and ignore the legion of scouting resources out there and guys like Bob Mackenzie that actually talks to real scouts?

Gotcha!
No, you should make an effort to watch these players yourself. Dont rely on second or in Bob's case, third hand information, and then use that as an argument against someone who has first hand experience.

That seems pretty foolish, but you are free to truck in that if you wish.

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05-14-2013, 12:22 PM
  #842
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I'm not sure if anyone has seen this video of Nichushkin or not, but all that I've got to say is wow.
Like his size and his ability to take the puck to the net.
Anyone know about his shooting/passing skill since this video pretty much highlights deek and stuff type goals.
It looks like he has some balance issues with his skating (maybe getting used to a growth spurt?) where he looks somewhat awkward when the puck is in his feet...and during goal celebrations. ;P

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05-14-2013, 12:23 PM
  #843
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I'll also add what I've said before. Carter Verhaeghe from Niagara would be a solid 5th round choice if he is still there. I see him as a very similar prospect to Freddie Hamilton. Not a sure thing to be in the NHL, but all the potential to be a versatile 3rd line player (who can play C or W, win some faceoffs, score some goals, and play hard every shift).

Like Hamilton, he will have the developmental opportunity of being one of the team's go to guys at 18 years old. He will start the year as a the top line centre and likely with the 'C'. He played 2C this year, and looked solid in the 2nd half and in the playoffs. His line with Perlini and DiFruscia is young, but they will be dominant in the 2014/15 season.

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05-14-2013, 12:27 PM
  #844
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
No, you should make an effort to watch these players yourself. Dont rely on second or in Bob's case, third hand information, and then use that as an argument against someone who has first hand experience.

That seems pretty foolish, but you are free to truck in that if you wish.
How would you rate Nurse vs Pulock? I've seen limited viewings of both but from what I have seen Pulock is the better player IMO.

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05-14-2013, 12:46 PM
  #845
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How would you rate Nurse vs Pulock? I've seen limited viewings of both but from what I have seen Pulock is the better player IMO.
Havent seen much of Nurse, especially lately. I liked what I saw at the U-18 tourney last year and at the prospects game this year. I think they are two different type players. Pulock has a cannon of a shot. Best in the WHL this year maybe. His defensive game isnt bad, but I dont consider it especially strong. You are getting a pp specialist at a minimum. A top pairing guy upside.

Nurse is much more physical/nasty imo. Ive heard his offense has improved but I cant speak to that. He can fight too, havent seen much of that from Pulock.

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05-14-2013, 12:48 PM
  #846
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So, where is Anaheim's second rounder going to end up?
Should be 52nd overall.

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05-14-2013, 12:53 PM
  #847
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So, where is Anaheim's second rounder going to end up?
Involved in a deal to trade up in the 1st round after we traded down with our #7 overall pick. That's my prediciton.

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05-14-2013, 12:55 PM
  #848
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Pretty sweet video. hockeysemin is a great YouTube poster, has made dozens of awesome videos. I just wish he'd make them for more than just Russian players

As for Nichushkin, you can see where the Rick Nash hype comes from with this kid. Great sense of where people are on the ice (some of those goal-mouth set-ups were mind-boggling). And he's quite a specimen with his size, frame, and skill-set - I honestly hate to bring it up but there's elements of Malkin in his game, with his ability to handle the puck and evade defenders.

What I do question is his ability to shoot/finish on good goaltending. He tends to have stereotypic moves when in close, but they appear to work every time. Then again, those same moves work for guys like Jeff Carter everytime he makes them. I'd like to maybe get a scouting report on his shooting ability, as he's not going to get straight to the net like that on every zone possession. Obviously he's a great deker, has great in-tight moves and can beat defenders one-on-one, but how about finishing off one-timers? Chances in the slot? Etc.
No player is perfect, but I am confident in saying after seeing that clip that his speed is exceptional, he plays around the net, and takes the puck to the net. The offensive toolbox beyond what we've seen is of less consequence to me than his willingness to take and dish out punishment. In the WJC video he looked very passive when it came to initiating hits with the exception of that big boarding hit that he got tossed for. He reminded me a lot of Charlie Coyle in that he is a beast on the puck and protects it very well. The closest player that we have to that on our team at the moment is Paajarvi and Nichushkin looks like a bigger, stronger, and more willing to drive to the front of the net player than Magnus right now. This could be the best forward in this draft right here or he could end up being a better Paajarvi at worst. I personally think that his combination of size, puck protection, and speed would be hell for any team to match up against.

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Originally Posted by Hemsky4PM View Post
Alexei Mikhnov and Rob Schremp look pretty good in video montages too...honestly, the defense in those videos looks pretty non-existent.

Anyways, we don't need guys whose no. 1 calling card is offense. We need some competitive, rugged, two-way players to compliment our existing scorers.

Hence why Monahan is so high on the list for most Oilers fans (and mocks) and why Lazar is even being mentioned as an option if Monahan is gone.
I take it you didn't bother watching video on him? I've seen numerous instances where he's used his speed defensively. Nichushkin is nothing like Schremp and Mikhnov wishes that he had the wheels and skill that Nichushkin has. You know who else looks good in highlights other than Schremp and Mikhnov? RNH, Hall, Eberle, and Yakupov, they must all be bums too.

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Drooling at that size and power. *******. Gotta work on the vertical leap into the glass though
The size and power is great but that speed on top of that = one hell of a handful for opposing defenses.

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That video reminds me of an old highlights package of Eric Cole that made the rounds around here when Lowe foolishly pawned off a 24 year old defenseman for a soon-to-be UFA. Main difference being Nichushkin looks like he can actually make plays off the left wing, while Cole had one move that only worked off the right wing.

I still don't think the Oilers draft him if he's available though. Everything I've seen(WJC) and heard about him suggests he's a winger going forward with no ability to play center, and I highly suspect the Oilers are fixated on drafting centers this year.
A much bigger and more skilled Eric Cole would be a fair comp although it looks like to me that he might have a bit more in the toolbox than Cole does.

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Looks like he is great at protecting the puck but not sure how these 1 on 3s will work in NHL..
No doubt, but he can chip and chase and will likely have some elite skill to pass it off to on the rush.

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Like his size and his ability to take the puck to the net.
Anyone know about his shooting/passing skill since this video pretty much highlights deek and stuff type goals.
It looks like he has some balance issues with his skating (maybe getting used to a growth spurt?) where he looks somewhat awkward when the puck is in his feet...and during goal celebrations. ;P
Yeah that was pretty funny. There's a clip on youtube from his WJC play, that might give you a bit more of what you're looking for.

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05-14-2013, 01:03 PM
  #849
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Havent seen much of Nurse, especially lately. I liked what I saw at the U-18 tourney last year and at the prospects game this year. I think they are two different type players. Pulock has a cannon of a shot. Best in the WHL this year maybe. His defensive game isnt bad, but I dont consider it especially strong. You are getting a pp specialist at a minimum. A top pairing guy upside.

Nurse is much more physical/nasty imo. Ive heard his offense has improved but I cant speak to that. He can fight too, havent seen much of that from Pulock.
The problem I have with Nurse is that I don't think his physical game will transfer to the NHL with his build. He's tall and somewhat skinny, he'll need to put on a lot of muscle if he wants to be able to play physical with the NHL'ers. Also he doesn't have much of a shot from the point, reminds me of Justin Schultz a bit in this sense as he uses his wrist shot mostly. Where as Pulock in my mind at worst is a less physical Johnny Boychuk and at best you get an Al Macinnis. And he's probably good enough to start on a lot of bottom pairings throughout the league where as Nurse won't be for at least a year probably closer to 3 or more.

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05-14-2013, 01:32 PM
  #850
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
I would say it is yet to be known where exactly he falls in the spectrum of an nhl player. Could he be a top six center? Or will he be more of a third line defensive guy? Will he be a winger instead? To me, none of that is particularly concerning as an Oiler fan because Lazar's game is so complete and versatile. Would it be the end of the world if he doesnt replace Gagner but instead replaces Horcoff?

I dont think so, as both will need to be replaced in the very near future.

Nobody is perfect, but those with little or no viewings regurgitating stuff theyve read like "questionable offensive upside" for a guy who led one of the best teams in the CHL in goal scoring and had more goals than Hunter Shinkaruk is highly questionable bordering on outright ludicrous.
That's not really a flaw though. It could be said about any prospect. Seth Jones is the most complete d prospect I've seen come along in years but even he has a flaw. His physicality.

I'm honestly curious what you think the flaws in his play are. In my semi limited viewings, Lazar seems to get tunnel vision a bit with the puck. I've recorded a bunch of the playoff games to try and watch when I get a chance to see if he's improved in that regard since my last viewings

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