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Why can't this team score in the playoffs?

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Old
05-02-2013, 01:47 PM
  #76
Dado
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IMO the surest sign that Gillis is on the hot seat is 50% off coupons at Ticketmaster the morning of a playoff game. If we get bounced in the first round, IMO Gillis is on his last season.

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05-02-2013, 01:47 PM
  #77
Henrik To Daniel
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
You realize that even with Ehrhoff they put up the worst ranked offense in NHL history among teams to make it to the SCF?
At least they were winning games up until the last series. Bottomline is, they were scoring ENOUGH to win which is the goal.

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05-02-2013, 01:51 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
I may sound bitter when I say this, but this team's scoring issues stem from one major problem - no Ehrhoff.
He had a big impact, no doubt. Lack of willingness to shoot from anywhere and at anytime is the key and Ehrhoff and Samuelsson were the best practitioners of that opportunistic, almost mercenary style. Our transition from an offense/dangerous on transition team to suffocating, playing boring dump & chase can be traced to not long after their departure.

Players being in decent scoring position end up over passing or faking wind ups and taking the puck wide only to end up with a bad angle shot, or more often, no shot at all.

Fewer off the rush chances. Many of the supporting cast are using tactics for which they are unsuited. Quite a few seem to think they’re Sedins and look to cycle instead of taking it to the net immediately when they may have advantage in surprise and numbers.

Lastly, irrespective of their 5 on 5 play and defensive prowess, the SS (scoring ship) Sedin is sailing away, and will be closer to 2nd line numbers next year. Their PPG:

Year--Henrik--Daniel
09-10--1.37--1.35
10-11--1.15--1.27
11-12--0.99--0.93
12-13--0.94--0.85

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05-02-2013, 01:55 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
At least they were winning games up until the last series. Bottomline is, they were scoring ENOUGH to win which is the goal.
But scoring 2 goals a game and hoping your goalie can bail you out isn't a sustainable path to success. There's a reason no other team in the history of the league got that far on such little offense and that's because it's basically impossible to replicate.

If they needed to sign Ehrhoff up until he was 40 years old just to upgrade their currently historically bad offense into just a terrible one in the playoffs, then then they might as well bust the team apart and start over again because they're going nowhere.

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05-02-2013, 02:06 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
IMO the surest sign that Gillis is on the hot seat is 50% off coupons at Ticketmaster the morning of a playoff game. If we get bounced in the first round, IMO Gillis is on his last season.

Could that have had anything to do with the initial, ridiculous price point? And not anything to do with the VAN's ability to pull in fans?

This market is too strong for Gillis to ever be really worried about ticket sales. Or aqua. They could be a middling team for years without feeling any real impact on their average revenue.

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05-02-2013, 02:08 PM
  #81
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Overall, the difference between a Canucks team WITH Ehrhoff and WITHOUT Ehrhoff is night and day. He finished in top 10 Norris voting in 2011. Gillis let a top 10 defenseman leave via free agency for nothing and that is by far and away his biggest mistake as Canucks GM.

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05-02-2013, 02:09 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Could that have had anything to do with the initial, ridiculous price point?
Except they weren't ridiculous to the only person that matters - the owner.

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And not anything to do with the VAN's ability to pull in fans?
THey didn't price 'em to not sell 'em - unsold tickets are unsold tickets - expectations not met.

First round exit and, IMO, Gillis is dead man walking.

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05-02-2013, 02:14 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
But scoring 2 goals a game and hoping your goalie can bail you out isn't a sustainable path to success. There's a reason no other team in the history of the league got that far on such little offense and that's because it's basically impossible to replicate.
Is that what we were doing, though? Was our goalie really bailing us out through that run or did we control the play for the most part and just weren't able to finish?

If we were being bailed out the whole time it would've been pretty clear that Luongo was the leading Conn Smythe candidate going into the finals. He wasn't. An option, sure, but I remember discussion leading him to be a "yeah, I guess so" as opposed to the obvious choice.

Not saying the offense didn't need to be better, far from it, but the team still maintained their dominance in terms of possession which I don't think is reflected when you say they hoped their goalie would bail them out every night.

This season the team was still good at ES, but we don't seem to have that level of dominance and we certainly don't have the same quick transition game we did. We were spoiled back then as that was a hell of a season so maybe our standards are a little high, but after last night you're seeing the Canucks actually get outplayed. We may not have scored a whole lot in 2011 either, but we sure as hell weren't getting outplayed.

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05-02-2013, 02:15 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Except they weren't ridiculous to the only person that matters - the owner.

They raised them. People didn't buy into that raise. Simple miscalculation. At the price point set, people's willingness to pay decreased. Now they adjust the price to compensate. It happens all the time in business.


But you are free to infer what you want from it beyond that, of course.


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THey didn't price 'em to not sell 'em - unsold tickets are unsold tickets - expectations not met.

First round exit and, IMO, Gillis is dead man walking.


Read above.

Also, completely disagree with you on Gillis. He's built up too much credit with amassing the most wins over 4.5 years. Even a 1st round exit won't mean much compared to that resume. On the whole.

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05-02-2013, 02:17 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
Letting Ehrhoff go was another of Gillis' many mistakes.

Here's the full list:

1) Mats Sundin's ridiculous contract (granted he only signed a one year, but if it had been for two the 2010-2011 Cup Run never would have happened with Sundin taking up a $10 million CAP HIT)

2) Trading valuable assets for Keith Ballard. This was done out of pure fear that he was going to miss out on Hamhuis, so he panicked and got rid of our 1st (Quinton Howden, who would be one of our best prospects), Grabner (who has gone on to eventually provide good secondary scoring elsewhere) and a decent bottom-sixer in Bernier. Ballard has never fit on this team and now takes up a considerable amount of cap space to sit on the bench.

3) Letting Ehrhoff walk. This is an obvious mistake now, but didn't look so bad at the time. Fact is, he was absolutely crucial to the success of the team and now we can't score at all with nearly the same personnel.

4) Signing Marco Sturm and then trading for David Booth. One mistake for another. Sure, Booth is a decent player when he's healthy...but he's never healthy. And he wasn't even considered decent this year. And he makes way too much. Blegh.

5) Trading Cody Hodgson for Zack Kassian WHEN HE DID. I'm not bashing Kassian, I think he's going to be a good player one day. But when that happens, this core will likely be finished. Hodgson was a complainer and a prima donna but he was READY at the time to step in for Kesler in case he got injured again (which he has, several times now.) Hodgson is now a top line center on the Sabres and produced almost as many points as any of our players, including the Sedins.

6) The Luongo debacle. Never mind the fact that the contract itself is awful...Gillis has completely botched this situation to the point that he couldn't even trade him for Ben ****ing Scrivens. He was offered Luke Schenn straight up at the draft (who was flipped for JVR, why Gillis wasn't in on that on a three-way is beyond me) and he should have taken him and cut his losses. Instead, we are now stuck with an unhappy player who is unmovable and may require a release from contract. Nobody needs a starting goalie anymore, let alone with that contract.

7) Refusing to fire Vigneault after the finals loss/last year/this year. We will see if this is to be his downfall, but AV has had to go for a while now and Gillis might just find himself going with him if we bow out in the first round. Vigneault is a decent coach on a team like Nashville...NOT here. We have too much talent to be playing this poorly.

And I'm sure I've missed something. The guy is just an overrated GM, plain and simple. His errors have cost this team dearly and nullified a potential yearly threat to win the Cup out of pure ego.
Agree except 3 and 7.
Erhoff is not that good, throught the SCF run I was not impressed with his play and felt the team would have been better without him. A guy like Garrison is much more solid all round. Erhoff got points but he also made alot of bad shots/ giveaways and ultimately decreased team scoring.

Can't really knock a coach who makes a SCF run and 2 presidents back to back.

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05-02-2013, 02:21 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Bleach Clean View Post
Also, completely disagree with you on Gillis. He's built up too much credit with amassing the most wins over 4.5 years. Even a 1st round exit won't mean much compared to that resume. On the whole.
Agree. I was happy with Gillis but I always thought he was given a pretty good situation and his real test was how he would handle adversity. Another first round exit will be that adversity and I think he's earned himself the time to see what he can do. I think he at least gets the time to bring in a new coach.

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05-02-2013, 02:25 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Henrik To Daniel View Post
Overall, the difference between a Canucks team WITH Ehrhoff and WITHOUT Ehrhoff is night and day. He finished in top 10 Norris voting in 2011. Gillis let a top 10 defenseman leave via free agency for nothing and that is by far and away his biggest mistake as Canucks GM.
everyone is a general after the battle.

at that time,I would signed Bieksa before Ehrhoff

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05-02-2013, 02:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Windy River View Post
Agree except 3 and 7.
Erhoff is not that good, throught the SCF run I was not impressed with his play and felt the team would have been better without him. A guy like Garrison is much more solid all round. Erhoff got points but he also made alot of bad shots/ giveaways and ultimately decreased team scoring.

Can't really knock a coach who makes a SCF run and 2 presidents back to back.
1 also not a mistake. We signed Sundin, which was the point. He was one of our best players in the playoffs. He helped Sedins/Kesler become what they are today. Also that second year would have been 09-10. The '11 run would have been very plausible to happen. In fact, I'd argue it would have been less possible if Sundin had not signed here.

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05-02-2013, 02:35 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
Possession? The team makes a stretch pass and tips it in 9/10 times. That's not a possession system.
Sedins play a possession game most of the time and that's it. Pretty clear the other line's go-to is a dump and chase. I don't like the dump and chase primarily because the other 3 lines are the lines that don't throw the puck back to defenders when they are battling down low.

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05-02-2013, 02:37 PM
  #90
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The stupid edler puck drop in the neutral zone on the PP is annoying.

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05-02-2013, 03:01 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by hlrsr View Post
Is that what we were doing, though? Was our goalie really bailing us out through that run or did we control the play for the most part and just weren't able to finish?

If we were being bailed out the whole time it would've been pretty clear that Luongo was the leading Conn Smythe candidate going into the finals. He wasn't. An option, sure, but I remember discussion leading him to be a "yeah, I guess so" as opposed to the obvious choice.

Not saying the offense didn't need to be better, far from it, but the team still maintained their dominance in terms of possession which I don't think is reflected when you say they hoped their goalie would bail them out every night.

This season the team was still good at ES, but we don't seem to have that level of dominance and we certainly don't have the same quick transition game we did. We were spoiled back then as that was a hell of a season so maybe our standards are a little high, but after last night you're seeing the Canucks actually get outplayed. We may not have scored a whole lot in 2011 either, but we sure as hell weren't getting outplayed.
Going into the SJ series, we scored less goals than we allowed: 2.31 vs 2.54

After the SJ series where we scored a boatload of goals including a 7-spot, overall we could only outscore our GAA by 0.2 (2.78 vs 2.56).

Overall we scored 2.32 goals per game and gave up 2.76. This was inflated because the Bruins scored 3.29 goals against us.

For reference, the Bruins postseason GAA was 2.5 before they ran into us. Note that this is identical to our GAA of 2.5 before we ran into them.

So yes, our goalies for the most part bailed us out. IF you look at the Bruins, they ooutscored their GAA by a full goal overall in the playoffs. Add in a historical two shutouts by Lu in the SCF and it's pretty much a closed case.

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05-02-2013, 03:12 PM
  #92
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Also, since the 2004 lockout, not only has every Cup winner (and SCF finalist) scored ~3 goals per game, they've also outscored their GAA by AT LEAST 0.7 goals on average and more often around 1 goals on average.

The closest margin was the CAR/EDM series where both teams could only outscore their GAA by 0.5. By the way, both those teams averaged 2.92 goals for per game. To suggest that our average of 2.32 in the SCF was acceptable is simply ludicrous.

Also note that if the SC winner scores between 2.9 and 3.3 goals per game, and they outscore their GAA by at least 0.5, their GAA is around 2.1 to 2.7 - so our goaltending is well within those parameters. Remember, Tim Thomas had a GAA of 2.5 against anyone but us.

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05-02-2013, 03:34 PM
  #93
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We have 16 goals in the last 14 playoff games.

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05-02-2013, 03:55 PM
  #94
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Originally Posted by Windy River View Post
Agree except 3 and 7.
Erhoff is not that good, throught the SCF run I was not impressed with his play and felt the team would have been better without him. A guy like Garrison is much more solid all round. Erhoff got points but he also made alot of bad shots/ giveaways and ultimately decreased team scoring.

Can't really knock a coach who makes a SCF run and 2 presidents back to back.
You can if he follows that up with consecutive first round losses. It he means he came close but he clearly can't win so you have to move on to someone else.

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05-02-2013, 04:05 PM
  #95
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If George McPhee can keep his job in Washington, I don't think Gillis has much to be worried about. Hell, even Doug Wilson is in a very similar position to Gillis, with the only exception being neither of those guys had their teams going to the finals.

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05-02-2013, 04:34 PM
  #96
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Going into the SJ series, we scored less goals than we allowed: 2.31 vs 2.54

After the SJ series where we scored a boatload of goals including a 7-spot, overall we could only outscore our GAA by 0.2 (2.78 vs 2.56).

Overall we scored 2.32 goals per game and gave up 2.76. This was inflated because the Bruins scored 3.29 goals against us.

For reference, the Bruins postseason GAA was 2.5 before they ran into us. Note that this is identical to our GAA of 2.5 before we ran into them.

So yes, our goalies for the most part bailed us out. IF you look at the Bruins, they ooutscored their GAA by a full goal overall in the playoffs. Add in a historical two shutouts by Lu in the SCF and it's pretty much a closed case.
My point was that we controlled the play and didn't finish much. You're not really adding anything by posting scoring numbers that show we didn't finish much.

Do you think we were outplayed throughout that run? Did we look like we didn't deserve to win games but our goaltender held us in it? Quality chances were skewed in the other teams favour?

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05-02-2013, 04:41 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by SDK View Post
Letting Ehrhoff go was another of Gillis' many mistakes.

Here's the full list:

1) Mats Sundin's ridiculous contract (granted he only signed a one year, but if it had been for two the 2010-2011 Cup Run never would have happened with Sundin taking up a $10 million CAP HIT)

2) Trading valuable assets for Keith Ballard. This was done out of pure fear that he was going to miss out on Hamhuis, so he panicked and got rid of our 1st (Quinton Howden, who would be one of our best prospects), Grabner (who has gone on to eventually provide good secondary scoring elsewhere) and a decent bottom-sixer in Bernier. Ballard has never fit on this team and now takes up a considerable amount of cap space to sit on the bench.

3) Letting Ehrhoff walk. This is an obvious mistake now, but didn't look so bad at the time. Fact is, he was absolutely crucial to the success of the team and now we can't score at all with nearly the same personnel.

4) Signing Marco Sturm and then trading for David Booth. One mistake for another. Sure, Booth is a decent player when he's healthy...but he's never healthy. And he wasn't even considered decent this year. And he makes way too much. Blegh.

5) Trading Cody Hodgson for Zack Kassian WHEN HE DID. I'm not bashing Kassian, I think he's going to be a good player one day. But when that happens, this core will likely be finished. Hodgson was a complainer and a prima donna but he was READY at the time to step in for Kesler in case he got injured again (which he has, several times now.) Hodgson is now a top line center on the Sabres and produced almost as many points as any of our players, including the Sedins.

6) The Luongo debacle. Never mind the fact that the contract itself is awful...Gillis has completely botched this situation to the point that he couldn't even trade him for Ben ****ing Scrivens. He was offered Luke Schenn straight up at the draft (who was flipped for JVR, why Gillis wasn't in on that on a three-way is beyond me) and he should have taken him and cut his losses. Instead, we are now stuck with an unhappy player who is unmovable and may require a release from contract. Nobody needs a starting goalie anymore, let alone with that contract.

7) Refusing to fire Vigneault after the finals loss/last year/this year. We will see if this is to be his downfall, but AV has had to go for a while now and Gillis might just find himself going with him if we bow out in the first round. Vigneault is a decent coach on a team like Nashville...NOT here. We have too much talent to be playing this poorly.

And I'm sure I've missed something. The guy is just an overrated GM, plain and simple. His errors have cost this team dearly and nullified a potential yearly threat to win the Cup out of pure ego.
Great summary. He rode the core that Nonis built and made a few good pickups, Hamhuis etc. but he has made some dumb moves.

He also has put the Canucks really close to the cap and has given out a lot of NTC.

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05-02-2013, 08:05 PM
  #98
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Canucks seem to be playing as hard as they can. They simply do not have another gear! I think they get used to playing within the division, have success and think it is enough. Plainly, it isn't!
Uh......no.

It's a lifeless bunch of overpaid, NTC-laden fatcats on the Vancouver bench. There's no emotion to be found, whatsoever. Last night, anyway, it looked like these guys already had one foot aboard a plane to wherever their first off-season excursion takes them. Looked completely disinterested. Playing against the worst road team in the entire playoffs, and they're the only team to lose the home opener.

That's "playing as hard as they can", to you? Certainly not to me.

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05-02-2013, 08:16 PM
  #99
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Originally Posted by AlexandreBurrows View Post
We have 16 goals in the last 14 playoff games.
17 in 13, actually

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05-02-2013, 08:22 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by AlexandreBurrows View Post
We have 16 goals in the last 14 playoff games.
No, it's 20 goals in the last 14. However, 13 in the last 11... Shutout 3 times in that span, held to 1 GF 4 times and hit a maximum of 3 GF just once.

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