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Old
05-12-2013, 01:10 PM
  #226
MarleauApologist
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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
comparing Boyle to Karlsson

You really want to say Boyle was brought here for his D then by all means run with it.
And in order for him to score 70+ he needs the others around him to produce. Lack of production from everyone has that affect.
So you think Karlsson wouldn't score 70+ points in San Jose if he replaced Boyle?

In order to be a number one defenseman, you need to have additional qualities to your game that Boyle doesn't currently have, in addition to the fact he doesn't produce like one.

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05-12-2013, 01:13 PM
  #227
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
no there is clear boyle hate. steep decline? needs to be moved? sounds like hate to me.
Watching you Americans from afar, I just have to make the observation that it's probably not hate, but your media culture teaches the use of extreme hyperbole to describe things. I rarely see people use mild or neutral adjectives.

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05-12-2013, 01:15 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Boyle is just average now huh? Sweeping the Nucks playing with Matt ****ing Irwin as his partner? Please.

Boyle has never been a Stud-D. Not much has changed. Has he declined a little? Probably. Should he play fewer minutes. I like that. But this steep decline is BS. He's still the man on our D and Demers isn't sniffing his butt yet.
Did he look elite to you? Because he sure didn't to me and didn't all season either. He was a guy you could count on for above-average defense and 50 points. Now he's a guy with average to below-average defense and 35-40 points. Sounds like a significant decline to me.

Vlasic's the man on D.

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05-12-2013, 01:15 PM
  #229
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i wasnt around when boyle was acquired, but his point totals shouldve never lead anyone in the organization to believe that he was an elite number 1 lol.

his contract is coming to a close, and yes his production has gone down. but to just flat out say he needs to go is wrong, imo. ian white? really? not a great replacement. who knows what type of contract he gets next, or if hes moved.

the highest scoring d man this year was subban with 38. a whopping 18 points more than boyle and montreal runs through subban. so hard to really use this season to justify anything, imo. drew doughty really rocked the house with his 22.

the whole team underperformed for large stretches this year. maybe his skating has declined, or maybe hes just being smarter. the team doesnt need him to carry through the neutral zone with the system we are employing, so youll see it less most likely.

for the regular season he is up there in giveaways, but not too far ahead of our defensive stalwart vlasic. his HART rating was second on the team. (HART being the average of his offensive/defensive contributions. meaning very good two-way)

but whatever.

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05-12-2013, 01:19 PM
  #230
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Originally Posted by The 88 View Post
So you think Karlsson wouldn't score 70+ points in San Jose if he replaced Boyle?
IMO he wouldn't score 70+ on any west coast team, especially if he was in the new Pacific Division next year. I would guess 50-60 points. Lidstrom is the only defencemen from the west coast who has broken 70 points in the last 15+ years.

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05-12-2013, 01:31 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
So we're blaming Boyle's lack of production on the lack of production from the people around him? I could just as easily blame the lack of production from the people around him on Boyle's lack of production, it you use your logic.
Ya because Boyle is always on the ice with everyone... How many times do we yell "shoot the f-ing puck" at our players. But sure Boyle is the reason we are not scoring

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05-12-2013, 01:36 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Did he look elite to you? Because he sure didn't to me and didn't all season either. He was a guy you could count on for above-average defense and 50 points. Now he's a guy with average to below-average defense and 35-40 points. Sounds like a significant decline to me.

Vlasic's the man on D.
I thought we were talking about offensive defensemen. What is Vlasic doing in the conversation. He's been our top shutdown D man for years.

It depends on how you look at it. He'd have 13 goals in an 81 games compared to 9 last year. His point production was down and he was noticeably bad for a while. As I've already said, I think part of that is due to the flu he had. Part of his perceived "decline" might have to do with covering for his partner. Could be our entire team slump.

I'm sure old man time is having some effect on him, but it's nowhere near what it's being made out to be around here IMO. He still has the puck skills as emphasized by his highlight Sharks GOTY among other plays (Wish I could find that gif of him double spinning around that guy) and you don't get past the Nucks in 4 icing Boyle in the role he played if he's declined that badly.

He had the most ice time, most points, the only goal (GW 5on5 BTW) among defensemen and a +1. While having the most minutes he also had plenty of time to get beat. He shouldn't be going up against the other teams top line. He should be doing what he's doing.

If we play the Hawks I look forward to people bashing Boyle any time he gets beat even though these guys have done it to everybody in the league.

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Old
05-12-2013, 01:38 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by do0glas View Post
i wasnt around when boyle was acquired, but his point totals shouldve never lead anyone in the organization to believe that he was an elite number 1 lol.

his contract is coming to a close, and yes his production has gone down. but to just flat out say he needs to go is wrong, imo. ian white? really? not a great replacement. who knows what type of contract he gets next, or if hes moved.

the highest scoring d man this year was subban with 38. a whopping 18 points more than boyle and montreal runs through subban. so hard to really use this season to justify anything, imo. drew doughty really rocked the house with his 22.

the whole team underperformed for large stretches this year. maybe his skating has declined, or maybe hes just being smarter. the team doesnt need him to carry through the neutral zone with the system we are employing, so youll see it less most likely.

for the regular season he is up there in giveaways, but not too far ahead of our defensive stalwart vlasic. his HART rating was second on the team. (HART being the average of his offensive/defensive contributions. meaning very good two-way)

but whatever.
You say "a whopping 18 points more than Boyle", but you neglect the fact that that's twice as many points as Boyle had.

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Originally Posted by FeedingFrenzy View Post
Ya because Boyle is always on the ice with everyone... How many times do we yell "shoot the f-ing puck" at our players. But sure Boyle is the reason we are not scoring
Holy crap, did you not understand that post at all? I was showing how stupid and illogical your argument was by pointing out how illogical it would be for me to say that Boyle's the reason we didn't score

If you can't use basic logic and reading comprehension, what's the point of arguing?

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05-12-2013, 01:47 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I thought we were talking about offensive defensemen. What is Vlasic doing in the conversation. He's been our top shutdown D man for years.

It depends on how you look at it. He'd have 13 goals in an 81 games compared to 9 last year. His point production was down and he was noticeably bad for a while. As I've already said, I think part of that is due to the flu he had. Part of his perceived "decline" might have to do with covering for his partner. Could be our entire team slump.

I'm sure old man time is having some effect on him, but it's nowhere near what it's being made out to be around here IMO. He still has the puck skills as emphasized by his highlight Sharks GOTY among other plays (Wish I could find that gif of him double spinning around that guy) and you don't get past the Nucks in 4 icing Boyle in the role he played if he's declined that badly.

He had the most ice time, most points, the only goal (GW 5on5 BTW) among defensemen and a +1. While having the most minutes he also had plenty of time to get beat. He shouldn't be going up against the other teams top line. He should be doing what he's doing.

If we play the Hawks I look forward to people bashing Boyle any time he gets beat even though these guys have done it to everybody in the league.
Sorry if I was confusing, I was talking about our defensemen's overall impact, not just offensive contributions. My mistake.

But I'm glad you bring up Boyle's shot totals, because they're declining. Boyle's shot-rate would have had him at 173 shots in 82 games this year. Last year he put up 252 shots in 82 games. This year's total is only 2/3rds of last year's total. That should be extremely alarming and telling. Boyle's only on pace for more goals this season because he shot 7.2%, as opposed to like 3% last year. Also, consider how many of Boyle's goals came on 5v3's, (not to take anything away from his highlight reeler against the Wild because that was spectacular and awe-indcing).

The fact that they've taken Boyle off the PK should set off alarm bells too. Not only because he actually needs the rest and can't handle those difficult, tiring, stressful minutes anymore, but because he frankly didn't look great on the PK.

Boyle played the role of middle-pairing defenseman in the Vancouver series. He played like a second-pairing defenseman. Luckily we have the depth to play him in a role that he's suited for. He's definitely not a liability, and he's playing up to the role that the coaches give him, so I'm not upset at Boyle, I just acknowledge that he's slowed down significantly.

Also, here's the gif I think you're looking for.


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05-12-2013, 01:48 PM
  #235
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
You say "a whopping 18 points more than Boyle", but you neglect the fact that that's twice as many points as Boyle had.



Holy crap, did you not understand that post at all? I was showing how stupid and illogical your argument was by pointing out how illogical it would be for me to say that Boyle's the reason we didn't score

If you can't use basic logic and reading comprehension, what's the point of arguing?
i say that because they run their entire offense through him. and yes subban is better than boyle...so it adds up lol. but you ignored my point about a much younger drew doughty who only got 22. systems have their effect. boyle is doing his job.

i think people have moved the goal posts in regards to boyle, and its unfair to him imo.

hes operating with a rookie next to him who has trouble pinching and got hot for 5-7 games and then fell off a cliff offensively.

what happens if he gets vlasic back? or braun for that matter.

the team is built how it is to win, and we are winning. to cherry pick an individuals performance over a shortened season for one, is wrong. everyone disregards other post lockout stats, why not these?

secondly, if our only blue line threat is on a steep decline...do we REALLY get the 6th seed? should be a testament to his durability that he not only continued to do his job but he did it well and we didnt end up against the hawks or the ducks in the first round.

thirdly, the last year and part of this one there was a lot of tinkering. not only with his partner, but the system as a whole.

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Old
05-12-2013, 01:55 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by The Great 88 View Post
And he had 20 points in 46 games this year. Not 6.67 million dollar money.

And the any defense he brings is a bonus part simply isn't true. He's not Erik Karlsson (who is better than him defensively), he can't score 70+ points on defense, he needs to be good defensively and he isn't
We get it you love Erik Karlsson.

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05-12-2013, 02:05 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Sorry if I was confusing, I was talking about our defensemen's overall impact, not just offensive contributions. My mistake.

But I'm glad you bring up Boyle's shot totals, because they're declining. Boyle's shot-rate would have had him at 173 shots in 82 games this year. Last year he put up 252 shots in 82 games. This year's total is only 2/3rds of last year's total. That should be extremely alarming and telling. Boyle's only on pace for more goals this season because he shot 7.2%, as opposed to like 3% last year. Also, consider how many of Boyle's goals came on 5v3's, (not to take anything away from his highlight reeler against the Wild because that was spectacular and awe-indcing).

The fact that they've taken Boyle off the PK should set off alarm bells too. Not only because he actually needs the rest and can't handle those difficult, tiring, stressful minutes anymore, but because he frankly didn't look great on the PK.

Boyle played the role of middle-pairing defenseman in the Vancouver series. He played like a second-pairing defenseman. Luckily we have the depth to play him in a role that he's suited for. He's definitely not a liability, and he's playing up to the role that the coaches give him, so I'm not upset at Boyle, I just acknowledge that he's slowed down significantly.

Also, here's the gif I think you're looking for.

Thanks for the gif. Saved this time.

Stats wise I don't think this shortened year is a very good indicator of anything substantial in this case and that includes extra goals or fewer shots taken.

Only time will tell

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05-12-2013, 02:05 PM
  #238
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You can make your eyeball judgement, but he played with a broken foot last year and the wrong stick for a while IIRC. Still his numbers compared to the year before were close and he had just as many goals.

2011 76 / 9 / 41 / 50 .66 PPG
2012 81 / 9 / 39 / 48 .59 PPG Broken foot
Yes they were close except for his power play numbers took a huge drop. This year, his even strength numbers took a huge drop. At his peak, he was producing at about .75 points per game and he was in the high 20s for power play production over the season. Last season, the power play numbers dropped significantly which explains his drop from his peak production. This year, his even strength production has been cut in half. He normally runs around .3 per game even strength or higher and this year it was .15 per game.

The point is that there are signs of decline. Of course he is still solid and still provides something valuable but he's not the guy that he once was when he was first brought in. That should be pretty easy for everyone to see.

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05-12-2013, 03:39 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
Better doesn't mean good. Obviously this team is better with Boyle than without, but he's not an elite #1 defensemen, and he's on the border of first and second pairing quality. He's average at best defensively and that's being kind, and he doesn't have much offensive jump. Yeah, he scored points in this series, but I don't remember him doing anything uniquely "Boyle", like he's done in the past. Nothing that, say, Demers, couldn't do, taking into account their respective hockey IQ's and natural abilities.

I have high standards for Boyle. I should have high standards for Boyle because he's shown himself to be elite in the past. He was distinctly not elite or close to it this year. That is extremely disappointing. Considering his age, it's most likely a permanent trend indicative of a decline in playing ability. Considering how good he was as recently as last season, there is every reason to think this decline is very steep. What's wrong?


Proof is in the pudding as they say, there's nothing that backs up your assertion.

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Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
Boyle is just average now huh? Sweeping the Nucks playing with Matt ****ing Irwin as his partner? Please.

Boyle has never been a Stud-D. Not much has changed. Has he declined a little? Probably. Should he play fewer minutes. I like that. But this steep decline is BS. He's still the man on our D and Demers isn't sniffing his butt yet.
This.

And again, I would love to see the stats that show just how bad Boyle is defensively, from what I've seen on the advanced stats as far as qualcomp, corsi, and plain old plus minus simply don't back up what so many of you want to believe.

Boyle, who as many say, got most of his points on the PP has a +3 on the season - those stud D-men Vlasic and Stuart? Well they beat him out at a +5 and +4. Wow, that's a drastic difference.

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05-12-2013, 04:14 PM
  #240
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Proof is in the pudding as they say, there's nothing that backs up your assertion.
There's nothing in that whole series that Boyle did that was elite. [Mod]


Last edited by slocal: 05-12-2013 at 05:20 PM. Reason: should've saved the effort in typing that.
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05-12-2013, 04:24 PM
  #241
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Man I sure do home Marty comes back and saves us.

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05-12-2013, 05:01 PM
  #242
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Originally Posted by TheJuxtaposer View Post
There's nothing in that whole series that Boyle did that was elite.
He's PPG through four games, and they were important points, a GWG and a play that brought in the tying goal with minutes left in the game. What more do you want from a 36 year old dman?????????????????????

[Mod]


Last edited by slocal: 05-12-2013 at 05:20 PM. Reason: deleted reply to edited quote
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05-12-2013, 05:11 PM
  #243
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My concern for Boyle is almost entirely about endurance, he just looks spent in a 48 game season, let alone an 82

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05-12-2013, 05:54 PM
  #244
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My concern for Boyle is almost entirely about endurance, he just looks spent in a 48 game season, let alone an 82
lol. What exactly is this based on? Did you ask Boyle? Has any reporter asked that question?

To me he looks to be in Playoff Hockey mode

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05-12-2013, 05:57 PM
  #245
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He's PPG through four games, and they were important points, a GWG and a play that brought in the tying goal with minutes left in the game. What more do you want from a 36 year old dman?????????????????????

[Mod]
Oh the logic

I guess its not enough because he is just avg defensively

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05-12-2013, 06:11 PM
  #246
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Where the hell am I? I thought this was the Havlat injury thread.

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05-12-2013, 06:29 PM
  #247
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Where the hell am I? I thought this was the Havlat injury thread.
Nobody cares about the guy who endlessly circles with the puck, and celebrates on non-goals.

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05-13-2013, 02:01 AM
  #248
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Glasslat's speed would be pretty nice against the Fatties.. His ability to stay off the IR isn't

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05-13-2013, 02:18 AM
  #249
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My concern for Boyle is almost entirely about endurance, he just looks spent in a 48 game season, let alone an 82
Your concerns should be alleviated a bit by the fact that this was a condensed season. So much so that the leadership group went to the coaching staff late in the season and asked for less practices. I'll add that it seems to have helped along with all of the other changes that have happened this season.

Talk about an adaptive management group. If only this old dog could learn new tricks as quickly

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05-13-2013, 02:41 AM
  #250
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I'd like to step in and mention that Boyle's minutes have gone down this year. A lot of people were concerned about Boyle eating up so many minutes at his age last year, and now that the team has the luxury of not playing him almost 30 minutes a night, he's seen a decline in points. He still QB's the powerplay better than anyone else on the team, and is still one of the better Dmen in the league for this.

Back to Havlat. He is a very talented and fragile player, but if he comes back he adds some much needed skill to the 2nd PP unit. The team still leans too much on their top players for my liking, and Galiardi-Gomez-Torres isn't great.

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