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Goalies and the Conn Smythe Trophy

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06-25-2013, 05:32 PM
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CriminallyVu1gar
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Goalies and the Conn Smythe Trophy

Starting this here instead of the general forums because I think in having Hasek, and to a lesser extent Miller, we have a love affair with the concept of a goalie putting a team on their back.

Goalies have won the most CS trophies (16, tied with centers) to 9 for defensemen, and 7 for wingers. This seems ridiculous to me, especially given recent history. For as much as Tim Thomas and Jonathan Quick put up gaudy numbers, and were very, very good, what I also remember from those campaigns is the Bruins D being phenomenally good at clearing rebounds, and the Kings skaters making the opposition attack look downright sterile at times.

My preference would be that the last Conn Smythe winning goalie would be J.S. Giguere whose team seemed to want to do as little as possible in front of him. Granted I can see the flaw in accolades being dependent upon teammates sucking, but it seems ridiculous to so often lionize the goalie when a large percentage of their success is dependent on who's in front of them. (Or perhaps there's just a fundamental problem with trying to give out individual awards in hockey.)

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06-25-2013, 05:44 PM
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haseoke39
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In before Jame.

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06-25-2013, 05:45 PM
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Beerz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CriminallyVu1gar View Post
Starting this here instead of the general forums because I think in having Hasek, and to a lesser extent Miller, we have a love affair with the concept of a goalie putting a team on their back.

Goalies have won the most CS trophies (16, tied with centers) to 9 for defensemen, and 7 for wingers. This seems ridiculous to me, especially given recent history. For as much as Tim Thomas and Jonathan Quick put up gaudy numbers, and were very, very good, what I also remember from those campaigns is the Bruins D being phenomenally good at clearing rebounds, and the Kings skaters making the opposition attack look downright sterile at times.

My preference would be that the last Conn Smythe winning goalie would be J.S. Giguere whose team seemed to want to do as little as possible in front of him. Granted I can see the flaw in accolades being dependent upon teammates sucking, but it seems ridiculous to so often lionize the goalie when a large percentage of their success is dependent on who's in front of them. (Or perhaps there's just a fundamental problem with trying to give out individual awards in hockey.)
Giving the Goalie the Conn is basically honoring the defense as a whole. A dman is not going to win it unless he puts up huge offensive numbers.

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06-25-2013, 05:50 PM
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haseoke39
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In all seriousness, if a defense clears rebounds really well, then that's 6 players working together. Is any goalie more valuable than 6 good defensemen, put together? Nope. Are there a few teams where the goalie is more valuable than any of its individual defensemen? Yep. I think Tim Thomas was sensational. He set the record for most saves in a playoffs and most saves in a finals that year.

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06-25-2013, 05:52 PM
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Myllz
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You could pretty much make this argument for any position. If a winger or center wins it, you could credit his entire line for helping him put up points. Or the powerplay unit as a whole if there were lots of points on special teams. If someone on defense wins it, you could credit his partner of even a checking line for shutdown duties. Same goes with the line he's working with while putting up points. The CS winner pretty much always owes a huge portion of the credit to his line/partner/unit(s)/defense.

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06-25-2013, 05:57 PM
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CriminallyVu1gar
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
You could pretty much make this argument for any position. If a winger or center wins it, you could credit his entire line for helping him put up points. Or the powerplay unit as a whole if there were lots of points on special teams. If someone on defense wins it, you could credit his partner of even a checking line for shutdown duties. Same goes with the line he's working with while putting up points. The CS winner pretty much always owes a huge portion of the credit to his line/partner/unit(s)/defense.
Yeah, hockey really is probably the worst sport for individual awards. Quarterbacks, Pitchers, and Basketball good shooty guys (I don't watch basketball) can all take over a game to a far greater extent than anyone in hockey.

Maybe Goalie CS winners just bother me because I don't play goalie. Or maybe as a Buffalo fan and therefore an expert on awesome goaltending, I don't want to see the CS diluted with goaltending winners to make true standouts shine brighter.

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06-25-2013, 06:07 PM
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aceface33
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I'm going to use this thread to complain again about Cam Ward winning the Conn Smythe in a playoff year where he was pulled for his bad play.

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06-25-2013, 06:10 PM
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I'm going to use this thread to complain again about Cam Ward winning the Conn Smythe in a playoff year where he was pulled for his bad play.
Haha, I'm going to use your bringing up of the topic to complain about the Canes winning a cup on an entire roster of players have statistical outlier seasons. Cory Stillman 26pts in 25 games! Frank Kaberle!

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06-26-2013, 02:30 AM
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I've been thinking of this same topic when I hear about the price the forwards and defenseman have to pay to win the Cup. Injuries galore.

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06-26-2013, 04:06 AM
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Thomas in 2011: .940 save percentage, four shutouts, eight goals allowed in seven-game SCF despite facing 246 shots (.967 sv%).

There's no arguing against Thomas as the Conn Smythe winner. He was the logical choice after facing a whopping 849 shots in the 2011 playoffs (Quick only dealt with 538 last year) and still managing to turn in a superhuman performance, as cited above.

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06-26-2013, 04:55 AM
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Rob Paxon
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It happens more often than it should but when all else is equal it's understandable that the goalie is the easy choice. In many ways, choosing a goalie means choosing the team, at least the team's defense.

Clearly there are goalies who deserve to win. It often takes a goalie on an incredible hot streak to get far in the playoffs. I'm glad Crawford didn't win because I wasn't overly impressed with what he had to do despite the numbers being strong. I had Kane as the winner myself. Keith would have also been a good choice. Either of those two probably should have won it last time, too.

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06-26-2013, 08:11 AM
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I agree with the OP. People whinning about Crawford getting snubbed are terrible. The guy had some really good moments, but so would any goalie that gets that far. He almost blew it when he had the turnover that led to the Lucic goal, and the 5 goal disaster in game 4. If he would have won the award, they should've just changed it to the Winning Teams Goalie Award. Thank goodness they got it right.

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06-26-2013, 10:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aceface33 View Post
I'm going to use this thread to complain again about Cam Ward winning the Conn Smythe in a playoff year where he was pulled for his bad play.
This is one of the few goaltender C.S. awards that I really disagree with, and for exactly the reason you mention.

Although one could make the argument that if you suck that bad that you have to be pulled, you're more valuable on the bench. I'd listen to that. :p

I think a bigger problem with the award is that the PHWA are the only people who vote on it, and that votes have to be in 10 minutes before the end of a game. I saw one of the TSN guys comment that he had no vote, and frankly I think TSN interns know more about the game than half of the PHWA. Plus, it's 2013. You're telling me they can't make a phone app for voting, and insta-tally it in the 10 minutes from the end of the game until awards are presented?

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06-26-2013, 11:59 AM
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haseoke39
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Plus, it's 2013. You're telling me they can't make a phone app for voting, and insta-tally it in the 10 minutes from the end of the game until awards are presented?
It's the NHL. Darcy's still trying to fax his vote in.

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06-26-2013, 01:41 PM
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CriminallyVu1gar
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Originally Posted by stokes84 View Post
I agree with the OP. People whinning about Crawford getting snubbed are terrible. The guy had some really good moments, but so would any goalie that gets that far. He almost blew it when he had the turnover that led to the Lucic goal, and the 5 goal disaster in game 4. If he would have won the award, they should've just changed it to the Winning Teams Goalie Award. Thank goodness they got it right.
And I think if a part of your game is constantly talked about as a major glaring weakness you're kind of disqualified as well.

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