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How much demerits is a first round knock out worth against a GM ?

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Old
05-04-2013, 04:23 AM
  #76
Zarpan
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
What'd we give up for Derek Roy, again?

That'll go down in history as a big, big mistake, too. Don't look now, but Connauton's got 9 points in 12 games on the Texas Stars, including 2 goals and 3 points in 3 playoff games. Bad, bad trade.
Connauton's always had the ability to put up some offence, especially with his shot. It's his defensive game which might not be up to snuff.

Plus, haven't you disparaged Garrison's signing quite a bit? The Stars would be happy if Connauton turned into a poor man's Garrison.

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05-04-2013, 04:28 AM
  #77
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Although our drafting hasn't been superb, we probably would have picked different players, and there's probably a 30+% chance of a 2nd round pick turning into a useful regular at least.
I think its less than that.

If I'm not mistaken 1st rounders are at about 25%.

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05-04-2013, 06:13 AM
  #78
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Gillis shouldn't be safe
I think one piece that hasn't received much talk, as a factor is the low ticket sales. When push comes to shove, that may mean as much this offseason as another year of bad playoff results to Aquq-man.
Unfortunately, Nill is gone. However even Shero has a right hand man, and Aqua-man is known to be friendly with Pierre McGuire ( just kidding - scared yah!)...

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05-04-2013, 07:39 AM
  #79
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Yeah Nonis deserves credit ..... maybe if he hadnt drafted Edler and Bieksa we would not be down 2-0 to the Sharks. I shudder to think where we would be without Garrison and Hamhuis - oh yeah maybe we could insert Brad Isbister ot Jan Bullis and maybe throw Mikka Noronen in for a spell - it is clear that Nonis could not win here did not have the knowledge to make sound free agent signings and aside from taking advantage of Mike keenan in one trade accumulated the square root of F all for this team. I dont think you can compare the two (Gillis and Nonis/Burke) - there is not a GM in the league that does not inherit core players when they take over - its what you build around them that counts and in that case there is no contest.

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05-04-2013, 07:54 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Zarpan View Post
Connauton's always had the ability to put up some offence, especially with his shot. It's his defensive game which might not be up to snuff.

Plus, haven't you disparaged Garrison's signing quite a bit? The Stars would be happy if Connauton turned into a poor man's Garrison.
Offense is pretty important, as we've seen. Not everybody is a five-tool guy. Ehrhoff's defensive game was never a strength of his, but did it matter? Not really, with the value that he added to his offensively.

And yes, I have disparaged the Garrison signing quite a bit. To me, he's a #4 - #6 d-man with a big shot (that hits the net ~20% of the time), and you just don't give 6-year, NTC-laden deals to guys like that.

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05-04-2013, 08:03 AM
  #81
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Yeah Nonis deserves credit ..... maybe if he hadnt drafted Edler and Bieksa we would not be down 2-0 to the Sharks. I shudder to think where we would be without Garrison and Hamhuis - oh yeah maybe we could insert Brad Isbister ot Jan Bullis and maybe throw Mikka Noronen in for a spell - it is clear that Nonis could not win here did not have the knowledge to make sound free agent signings and aside from taking advantage of Mike keenan in one trade accumulated the square root of F all for this team. I dont think you can compare the two (Gillis and Nonis/Burke) - there is not a GM in the league that does not inherit core players when they take over - its what you build around them that counts and in that case there is no contest.
Please. You can't throw around Brad Isbister and Jan Bulis without also bringing up Marco Sturm and Mathieu Schneider.

And with respect to your last sentence - I don't think Gillis is going to lose his job, but AV definitely will, even though IMO Gillis is the one who far more deserves to be fired. What you need to ask yourself is what has been done since the 2011 season to improve the roster and build on the breakout season? Look at what's happened to the roster since then. Development has been sideways at best.

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05-04-2013, 08:10 AM
  #82
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You mean after the back to back Presidents Cup trophies - I know that would be foriegn to the NOnis/Burke regime - both Sturm and Schneider cost us nothing - so to use them as a comparable is not obnly off base but very simple minded - he realized the errors of both signings quickly and removed them - no cost - not like Jones enroth or wayne simmonds -- so before you start making arguments please develop parallel comparisons - so short sighted ......

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05-04-2013, 08:25 AM
  #83
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You mean after the back to back Presidents Cup trophies - I know that would be foriegn to the NOnis/Burke regime - both Sturm and Schneider cost us nothing - so to use them as a comparable is not obnly off base but very simple minded - he realized the errors of both signings quickly and removed them - no cost - not like Jones enroth or wayne simmonds -- so before you start making arguments please develop parallel comparisons - so short sighted ......
The Nonis/Burke regime mostly operated under a completely different fiscal environment than what Gillis has. Gillis had essentially had carte blanche given to him by Aquilini. I remember back in 2000 or 2001, the Canucks' front page news was signing Andrew Cassels as a free agent. A free agent! Coming to Vancouver! Wow! It's really not fair to compare the activity of the two GMs as the context was 100% different.

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05-04-2013, 08:29 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Tank View Post
You mean after the back to back Presidents Cup trophies - I know that would be foriegn to the NOnis/Burke regime - both Sturm and Schneider cost us nothing - so to use them as a comparable is not obnly off base but very simple minded - he realized the errors of both signings quickly and removed them - no cost - not like Jones enroth or wayne simmonds -- so before you start making arguments please develop parallel comparisons - so short sighted ......
Too bad that he didn't use that same method with Keith Ballard, isn't it?

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05-04-2013, 08:41 AM
  #85
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how do you guys keep on falling into King of the ES's trap

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05-04-2013, 08:43 AM
  #86
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Cassels was big news because no one wanted to play in Van with Nonis and Burke - thats where you are missing it - Vancouver is now a destination - was never before -and that my friend does not happen overnight - Hamhuis, Garrison, Sundin etc. Just like no one wanted to play for Burke in Toronto and those that did were brutal and over paid - Connelly, Liles, Komisarik etc. This is probably the most important contribution Gillis has made to this organization and the most under appreciated -he is in the back ground not the foreground like BB --huge difference -- results show.

We really have become spoiled here in Van - we go from non playoff to SC Finals in three years with Gillis and you want to compare that to what went on before he came - no comparison - we are now viewed as a premiere franchise and like I said that occurs over time - everyone makes trades they regret and trades they like (give you Ballard but remeber Patrick White (nonis draft btw) for Ehrhoff). Gillis is armed with a 5 year extension so I doubt he is going anywhere soon and I am confident we will be in the hunt for a cup for quite some time yet.

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05-04-2013, 08:44 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
Offense is pretty important, as we've seen. Not everybody is a five-tool guy. Ehrhoff's defensive game was never a strength of his, but did it matter? Not really, with the value that he added to his offensively.

And yes, I have disparaged the Garrison signing quite a bit. To me, he's a #4 - #6 d-man with a big shot (that hits the net ~20% of the time), and you just don't give 6-year, NTC-laden deals to guys like that.
Do you even watch Canucks games?

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05-04-2013, 08:46 AM
  #88
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Garrison has been a top two minuter eater - great signing - here for a while -and I am glad he is.

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05-04-2013, 11:13 AM
  #89
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I think Garrison has been our best overall defenseman this season. He's solid in his own end, and he's been a threat to put points on the board, even while AV has dicked him around on PP minutes.

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05-04-2013, 12:40 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Moses View Post

Here is the Mike Gillis All-Star Team outside of draft picks:


Sturm---Roy----Torres (who was subsequently let go)
Booth---Sundin (past his prime)---Higgins
Lapierre---Ebbett---Wellwood
Weise---Malhotra----Sestito

Hamhuis---Garrison
O'Brien---Ehrhoff (who he subsequently let go)
Ballard---Tanev
Barker

The MG all star team. I like that.

You forgot Steve Kass.. er I mean Bernier on there.

And Ryan Walter as head coach !

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Old
05-04-2013, 01:20 PM
  #91
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Cassels was big news because no one wanted to play in Van with Nonis and Burke - thats where you are missing it - Vancouver is now a destination - was never before -and that my friend does not happen overnight - Hamhuis, Garrison, Sundin etc. Just like no one wanted to play for Burke in Toronto and those that did were brutal and over paid - Connelly, Liles, Komisarik etc. This is probably the most important contribution Gillis has made to this organization and the most under appreciated -he is in the back ground not the foreground like BB --huge difference -- results show.
That is utter nonsense. Nobody wanted to play with Nonis and Burke? Um, no, the Canucks weren't a good team and couldn't afford to pay anyone. That was the truth. John McCaw was not willing to spend any money on this team. Those were the days where guys like Mike Gillis were getting guys like Bobby Holik $9M/year in New York. Vancouver could not and did not compete.

Vancouver is a destination now because they've been a pretty good team since 2008-09. It has nothing to do with Mike Gillis and/or how well-run this organization is. It has mostly/all to do with where the team is in their cycle.

Why do you think Justin Schultz signed in Edmonton? Why do you think Ryane Clowe just NYR instead of us? If we're such a destination, shouldn't a guy like Justin Schultz want to sign here, where he's from, instead of a place like Edmonton?!? Don't give me the "he wanted to play now" crap - Frank Corrado is currently our 6th defenceman. Schultz would be in our top-3.

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Originally Posted by Tank View Post
We really have become spoiled here in Van - we go from non playoff to SC Finals in three years with Gillis and you want to compare that to what went on before he came - no comparison - we are now viewed as a premiere franchise and like I said that occurs over time - everyone makes trades they regret and trades they like (give you Ballard but remeber Patrick White (nonis draft btw) for Ehrhoff). Gillis is armed with a 5 year extension so I doubt he is going anywhere soon and I am confident we will be in the hunt for a cup for quite some time yet.
Clearly you're showing that the depth of your analysis is limited.

I guess Dave Nonis waltzed into Toronto, waved the magic wand, and they just happened to make the playoffs? Is that what happened? Or was it his acquisition of Frazer McLaren that pushed them over the top?

...OR, could it have been the previous work of Brian Burke beginning to pay dividends? Hmm...

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05-04-2013, 01:24 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Tank View Post
We really have become spoiled here in Van - we go from non playoff to SC Finals in three years with Gillis and you want to compare that to what went on before he came - no comparison - we are now viewed as a premiere franchise and like I said that occurs over time - everyone makes trades they regret and trades they like (give you Ballard but remeber Patrick White (nonis draft btw) for Ehrhoff). Gillis is armed with a 5 year extension so I doubt he is going anywhere soon and I am confident we will be in the hunt for a cup for quite some time yet.
I meant to say - it's not a matter of being spoiled. It's a matter of Canuck fans wanting a Cup, and nothing else - rightfully so. In this game, nothing else matters. Win.

And you're really confident that we'll be in the hunt for a Cup for quite some time? Wow. I'm not. Don't forget that we're not going to have the luxury of beating up on Calgary, Colorado, and Edmonton multiple times annually beginning next year. Compound that reality with the fact that we've got some serious work to do to get compliant with the cap (read: players will be leaving), and with some other young teams showing signs of life at the end of the year (Edmonton, Dallas, Columbus), and I actually have a hard time seeing this bunch making the playoffs next year.

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Old
05-04-2013, 01:28 PM
  #93
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(give you Ballard but remeber Patrick White (nonis draft btw) for Ehrhoff)
Gillis poached a team in cap trouble. Shoe's on the other foot now.

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Old
05-04-2013, 01:42 PM
  #94
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I wouldn't say the Sharks are the worst team in the playoffs, but...
1) they had a better team 2 seasons ago
2) Thornton and Marleau are gone
3) key guys from that team (Clowe and Murray) have moved on

Sure a guy like Couture is better, but not enough to offset the above.

On paper this team is not as good as the Sharks team from two years ago, that's why Wilson was a seller, and not a buyer at the deadline.

They may however play a better team game, and be better suited for the game today (closer checking, less penalty calls).

If the Canucks lose again in the 1st round, our team is to blame. The fact the Kings won the Cup last yr was the worst thing to happen to us at that point. It made it easy to say "see we lost to another really great team."

With the age of our key players, and taking into consideration that Kesler may have a short stay at the top because he's potentially not physically suited for the type of game he has to play to be most effective, I think we could have done more to capitalize on the opportunity we have.

But, I'd like to take this opportunity to say the world is always bleakest for hockey fans after a game 1 playoff loss.

"WE MUST CHILL."
How are Thornton and Marleau gone? And how is the older team better? Because of regular season success being stronger in prior years than it is now.

Clowe was the 4th best forward on that 2011 team behind Thornton, Marleau, and Couture. He was our 6th best forward this year. Not that important to our team than, and certainly isn't now. Torres has been better this year than Close was.

Douglas Murray was never a key piece to this team. I've always thought he was a very, very overrated #6 defenseman, who got unnecessary praise because he is physical. This year, he was far from an NHL defenseman. The only people sad about losing him are people who are reacting off nostalgia and their love for him as a person, not an actual player. He's been useless for a long time. Neither of them were key players, and Torres/Irwin (effectively Clowe/Murray's respective replacements) are better. This current Sharks team is much, much better than that of 2011. The scoring depth is much better, the defense is about even, and Niemi has improved from average NHL goalie to Vezina candidate. I don't know what you mean by "Thornton and Marleau are gone". They're slightly worse players than they were in 2011, but not enough to offset the other changes; not to mention they were far from the reasons we lost in 2011.

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05-04-2013, 02:02 PM
  #95
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How are Thornton and Marleau gone? And how is the older team better? Because of regular season success being stronger in prior years than it is now.

Clowe was the 4th best forward on that 2011 team behind Thornton, Marleau, and Couture. He was our 6th best forward this year. Not that important to our team than, and certainly isn't now. Torres has been better this year than Close was.

Douglas Murray was never a key piece to this team. I've always thought he was a very, very overrated #6 defenseman, who got unnecessary praise because he is physical. This year, he was far from an NHL defenseman. The only people sad about losing him are people who are reacting off nostalgia and their love for him as a person, not an actual player. He's been useless for a long time. Neither of them were key players, and Torres/Irwin (effectively Clowe/Murray's respective replacements) are better. This current Sharks team is much, much better than that of 2011. The scoring depth is much better, the defense is about even, and Niemi has improved from average NHL goalie to Vezina candidate. I don't know what you mean by "Thornton and Marleau are gone". They're slightly worse players than they were in 2011, but not enough to offset the other changes; not to mention they were far from the reasons we lost in 2011.
Do you believe your retooled team is good enough to go all the way and win a cup this year ?

I'm not saying I don't. Clowe sucks and Im glad we didn't get him.

If you lose in the 1st or 2nd round, is it consensus in Shark land that the GM and coach are gone next year ?

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05-04-2013, 08:44 PM
  #96
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Didn't have money to spend??????Did they not open the cheque book for Mark Messier and open it again to retain Markus?? Do you homework dude. as for it being a destination because of its place in the cycle ??? BS --- if that is the case Columbis should soon be a destination as should Florida - what a lame argument - players come here becaxuse hey know it is a well run organization not because of the cycle - you must be a gynecologist since that is the only cycle you can make predictions on - get with it Burkie lover.

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05-04-2013, 08:50 PM
  #97
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Gillis isn't the problem.

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05-04-2013, 10:07 PM
  #98
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Didn't have money to spend??????Did they not open the cheque book for Mark Messier and open it again to retain Markus?? Do you homework dude. as for it being a destination because of its place in the cycle ??? BS --- if that is the case Columbis should soon be a destination as should Florida - what a lame argument - players come here becaxuse hey know it is a well run organization not because of the cycle - you must be a gynecologist since that is the only cycle you can make predictions on - get with it Burkie lover.


The cycle the team was in is why Mike Gillis himself came to Vancouver. He turned down other GM jobs to come to Vancouver.

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05-05-2013, 11:21 AM
  #99
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Didn't have money to spend??????Did they not open the cheque book for Mark Messier and open it again to retain Markus?? Do you homework dude. as for it being a destination because of its place in the cycle ??? BS --- if that is the case Columbis should soon be a destination as should Florida - what a lame argument - players come here becaxuse hey know it is a well run organization not because of the cycle - you must be a gynecologist since that is the only cycle you can make predictions on - get with it Burkie lover.
Mark Messier was signed in 1997, when Arthur Griffiths was the owner, not John McCaw. That was obviously also prior to Bure demanding a trade, and when expectations were pretty high.

Retaining Markus Naslund is the status quo, it's not an improvement. Of course, you're not going to be able to just not sign anybody and expect to sell any tickets (which they weren't doing in the late-90s, BTW).

And yes, sure, CBJ and Florida will be destinations. CBJ needs offense - don't be surprised to see a guy like Mason Raymond ending up there. It's all about being a good match between where the player is in his career, and where the team is in its. Hamhuis & Malhotra were, I believe, 28 & 30 years old when they signed here. Right in their primes, which was a good fit for us, because that's where the Sedin's, Luongo, and our team at-large was. Hockey players don't care about how well-run an organization is. What do you think they know about running a business, anyway?

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05-05-2013, 11:47 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by StringerBell View Post
Gillis isn't the problem.
I would argue that he is the problem. Last year at the State of the Franchise address he was asked if he has plans to improve our offense. His answer was no, and that he thought our offense was good enough. Clearly he hadn't learned at all from the previous two playoffs, and now we're seeing the same old garbage for a third straight year. That is not acceptable.

Gillis has let key components leave this team without replacing those components. He's let the team lose its mobile puck moving defenseman which is what gave us a dangerous and swift transition game. He's allowed us to lose a very physical third liner who wasn't afraid to hit and create energy. He's allowed us to lose our once dominant faceoff ability.

Bringing in plugs like Ebbett, Weise, and Barker have done nothing for this team.

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