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Phoenix LXXVI: Renaissance Men

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Old
05-05-2013, 11:08 AM
  #126
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The new council in the end will give basically everything the new group wants.IMHO the only unknown is GWI/referendum does GB roll the dice to see how this would play out?
One problem with that thinking! The city does NOT have the money to give whatever they would like!!!!

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05-05-2013, 11:11 AM
  #127
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That's why this is a hail mary... last second attempt to score... he knows the new mayor will not buy his baloney... to me I think this is it, once they get rejected for a sweetheart deal from the COG, Bettman can now say "tried everything"... and sell/relocate the team.

people need to understand something too... Gosbee may be doing this favour for Bettman, so down the road he gets a favour in return from the NHL. this is how the game is played with Bettman. help him out of a jam, and you get rewarded down the road... just ask Leopold


as well... Bettman knows if a 3rd party company runs the arena, it's really game over for the yotes. no more subsidy and they will really need to start paying rent then
I think if a third party manages the arena it does not necessarily spell the end, it just spells the end of the subsidy. The NHL would have to negotiate a lease with the new arena manager. this might entail them getting revenues only form their hockey events and not necessarily paying rent. Lots of ways to work it. This way, the turnstile success of the yotes equates to the revenue from the arena.


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a 12 month relo clause would sentence the ownership too a lame duck season. Attendance has been horrible with uncertainty hanging over the team, imagine how bad it would be if the certainty was they ARE leaving.

At $6-$6.5 million you are still talking an annual 8 figure loss unless you somehow convince Phoenicians hockey is fun. "we know most of you have ignored this sport for 17 years but seriously guys its cool. Check it out and BTW you have to pay 50% more than what you weren't paying for the past 17 years, otherwise they will leave and you WILL notice they are gone even though you hardly noticed they were here."
They should just play at the place where the roadrunners played and charge $1,000 a ticket.


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The new council in the end will give basically everything the new group wants.IMHO the only unknown is GWI/referendum does GB roll the dice to see how this would play out?
What would ever give you that idea? Nothing the new council has done comes close to even suggesting they will give the arena manager, whoever that is, more than 6-7 mil per year.

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05-05-2013, 11:14 AM
  #128
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The proof that the nhl is trying yet another squeeze play on Glendale is that Gosbee hasn't bought the team yet. The mayor could very well say to the nhl he'll make a "fair arrangement" with the new owner, or something around those lines. Or remember the nhl they fronted 45m$ and that now it's their turn to make the first move (ie sell the team first). I'd like to see Bettman getting his own bs talk served to him for once.

Glendale will get the blame. That's not fair.
It's been Gary's game all along since the league asked for this new arena...

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05-05-2013, 11:30 AM
  #129
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The problem is not even so much related to political will. Glendale is tapped out financially, and has the bond rating agencies breathing down their necks.
According to Joyce Clark's account : "Interim City Manager Dick Bowers responded with “there is no money to find” and the proposed budget as presented is a “sound and reasonable approach.” He indicated that if council gave direction to accede to police and fire requests, cuts to all other departments would be “surgical.” It was then requested that council identify which departments they would like to see eliminated to meet the police and fire financial requests."
They were living in "la la land" and leaning on "Clarkonomics" and Hocking's fairy dust right up to Jamison's lease. Reality has landed with a thud, and I doubt that the new city manager or a majority of city council members would go for a large AMF.

It seems like there are going to be three very different perspectives meeting in Glendale.

Maybe Team Gosbee is coming to say they're quite content to just take the $6MM annual AMF already in the budget. Maybe they believe that the NHL in Glendale is merely a mismanaged asset and with a couple of adjustments they will have a vibrant and viable franchise.

Or maybe they're coming to say they need a deal that includes more than $6MM per year from the city. That's really the question, right? If there's no budget adjustment required, then it seems like there is a clear path to tendering a Professional Services/Sole Source Contract offer; rescinding the RFP; and completing a deal.

If the previous proposals are any indication, it's going to be a request for more than $6MM. Either way, an emergency clause requires 5 aye votes out of 7 members. Without the emergency clause, the league would be unlikely to have certainty on the issue until about mid-June.

There's two big questions to me:

NHL. If they want more than $6MM, what leverage does the league have to use with Glendale? Pay this amount or we'll relocate/fold the team? The problem with that approach is that Glendale would be in a position to verify the veracity of the threat. Glendale is under no Non Disclosure for items discussed in a meeting with the NHL. The city doesn't have to privilege the material or use a deliberate process exemption to avoid disclosing the minutes of the meeting. The city would be able to immediate publicize what the NHL put on the table, if they wanted to. Will the city allow the NHL to put a demand on the table without countering with their own leverage of publicizing any threat?

Glendale. The previous City Manager and City Attorney spent a lot of effort to misrepresent the Coyotes economic contributions to the city. They even indemnified the league against their own failure to act. The players at the city have changed significantly but it remains to be seen if the approach has. If a request for a budget adjustment is made so the team can receive an AMF above $6MM, will the new interim City Manager have the same things to say? Will Dick Bowers respond with “there is no money to find”? Will he ask council members to identify which departments they would like to see eliminated to meet the NHL's financial requests?

It could be an interesting week.

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05-05-2013, 11:41 AM
  #130
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I think if a third party manages the arena it does not necessarily spell the end, it just spells the end of the subsidy. The NHL would have to negotiate a lease with the new arena manager. this might entail them getting revenues only form their hockey events and not necessarily paying rent. Lots of ways to work it. This way, the turnstile success of the yotes equates to the revenue from the arena.




They should just play at the place where the roadrunners played and charge $1,000 a ticket.




What would ever give you that idea? Nothing the new council has done comes close to even suggesting they will give the arena manager, whoever that is, more than 6-7 mil per year.
History!

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05-05-2013, 11:42 AM
  #131
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Yeah? You mean they were originally supposed to move somewhere else, or are you referring to Winnipeg?
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Minnesota.
Yep. Minneapolis/St.Paul. Burke & Gluckstern demanding major breaks, the city telling them wasnt happening, actually homeless for a very short period of time before being re-directed to Gary Bettmans old NBA Buddy Colangelo in Phoenix who at that time had a fairly new arena to be paying down & welcomed a tenant.... a pair of neophytes who he could basically take to the cleaners with a one sided deal virtually guaranteeing their eventual insolvency. The facility itself hardly conducive to a treat of a hockey experience but none the less, conveniently located right downtown.

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There's two big questions to me:
It could be an interesting week.
Ditto: and yes, its' shaping up to look like huh?


Last edited by Killion: 05-05-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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05-05-2013, 11:47 AM
  #132
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If anything, Mr. Bettman is there to basically put the pressure on the City of Glendale. Maybe be a moderator for some type of discussion... But I don't think that Glendale can afford to hand out what Bettman, Gosbee and LeBlanc may be asking for an AMF.
Pray pardon me, this 'Marquis' is worth saving, at any cost to my city?



Fare thee well!

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05-05-2013, 12:15 PM
  #133
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Pray pardon me, this 'Marquis' is worth saving, at any cost to my city?



Fare thee well!
Honest question, since you're in Glendale... What's the public feeling about the AMF subsidy, and the NHL in the city?

Or is the public not really educated on the goings on with the Coyotes/NHL?

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05-05-2013, 12:15 PM
  #134
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Pray pardon me, this 'Marquis' is worth saving, at any cost to my city?
I dont sometimes wonder if Gary Bettman doesnt consider himself in some way Balian of Ibelin from the movie Kingdom of Heaven who in defending Jerusalem tell's Saladin before his army of tens of 1000's; Before I Lose it, I will burn it to the ground. Only here theres nothing heroic about it. The man almost appearing to be an Arsonist without conscience. If you cant save the city without destroying it, better you should just walk away.

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05-05-2013, 12:32 PM
  #135
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Ah, thanks. I did not know that!



I learned it on hfboards also.

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05-05-2013, 02:15 PM
  #136
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It seems like there are going to be three very different perspectives meeting in Glendale.

Maybe Team Gosbee is coming to say they're quite content to just take the $6MM annual AMF already in the budget. Maybe they believe that the NHL in Glendale is merely a mismanaged asset and with a couple of adjustments they will have a vibrant and viable franchise.

Or maybe they're coming to say they need a deal that includes more than $6MM per year from the city. That's really the question, right? If there's no budget adjustment required, then it seems like there is a clear path to tendering a Professional Services/Sole Source Contract offer; rescinding the RFP; and completing a deal.

If the previous proposals are any indication, it's going to be a request for more than $6MM. Either way, an emergency clause requires 5 aye votes out of 7 members. Without the emergency clause, the league would be unlikely to have certainty on the issue until about mid-June.

There's two big questions to me:

NHL. If they want more than $6MM, what leverage does the league have to use with Glendale? Pay this amount or we'll relocate/fold the team? The problem with that approach is that Glendale would be in a position to verify the veracity of the threat. Glendale is under no Non Disclosure for items discussed in a meeting with the NHL. The city doesn't have to privilege the material or use a deliberate process exemption to avoid disclosing the minutes of the meeting. The city would be able to immediate publicize what the NHL put on the table, if they wanted to. Will the city allow the NHL to put a demand on the table without countering with their own leverage of publicizing any threat?

Glendale. The previous City Manager and City Attorney spent a lot of effort to misrepresent the Coyotes economic contributions to the city. They even indemnified the league against their own failure to act. The players at the city have changed significantly but it remains to be seen if the approach has. If a request for a budget adjustment is made so the team can receive an AMF above $6MM, will the new interim City Manager have the same things to say? Will Dick Bowers respond with “there is no money to find”? Will he ask council members to identify which departments they would like to see eliminated to meet the NHL's financial requests?

It could be an interesting week.
I would be very surprised if Gosbee et al. would be willing to pick up the franchise if there isn't a very large AMF on the table. Otherwise, they could have stepped in and taken Jamison's deal, I would imagine. It was clear for more than a year that he was struggling to find investors. Still, I suppose it's possible that the IEH boys have been able to convince him that the franchise can be turned around. It would seem unlikely that it is a very good investment though, considering what other franchises have sold for recently. The Coyotes might be worth a premium in Glendale if there is a very rich subsidy on the table from Glendale, but without that it seems very expensive at $170 million.

I suppose that you're right, and the COG could turn around and pay a big AMF to keep the team. They'd have to further eviscerate their budget to do so, but it's an odd group there. If they did, then unless it was passed as an Emergency ordinance, I can't see how they could possibly avoid a petition. Perhaps the NHL will indicate that without it being sealed and delivered pronto (via an Emergency ordinance), they need to move on. It would take quite the chutzpah for mayor and council to pass this given the city's financial state.

My own view is that this is all part of the NHL's drama, whereby they will be seen as making a last effort to keep the team in Glendale, and walk away if this mayor and council walks away from the deal they offered Jamison. Those that care about the Coyotes will lay the blame on the new mayor and council, and those that don't won't matter. But this is definitely a final step that the NHL felt that it had to take before contemplating relocation of the franchise.

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05-05-2013, 02:18 PM
  #137
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What would ever give you that idea? Nothing the new council has done comes close to even suggesting they will give the arena manager, whoever that is, more than 6-7 mil per year.
I agree with this. Perhaps they'll give a bit more, but having increased taxes and slashed services, and facing a structural deficit that has the bond rating agencies giving them the hairy eyeball, they really don't have much financial wiggle room.

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05-05-2013, 02:38 PM
  #138
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I agree with this. Perhaps they'll give a bit more, but having increased taxes and slashed services, and facing a structural deficit that has the bond rating agencies giving them the hairy eyeball, they really don't have much financial wiggle room.
Ya, I agree with Tommy Hawks opinion as well. This Mayor & Council have as yet shown no interest nor any propensities to return to yesterdays insanity. Simply put, even if they wanted to, they cant write checks with their mouths that their ***** cant cash. The COG simply doesnt have it. Blatantly obvious. So for Gosbee, Pastor, Hulsizer or anyone else strolling into Council demanding more than the $6M allocated (which itself is rich enough)? Doesnt make any sense. They do that, total set-up & they'll be called out on it in public. Crucified. Everyone reminded of the $45M, the NHL's noses rubbed in it. Of IEH's ridiculous CFD & Hulsizers Bond Scheme, of the $324M promised to Jamison. League, Gosbee, whomever, absolutely going to get hammered if they try that on.

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05-05-2013, 02:47 PM
  #139
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Maybe when the screws are put to the CoG they come up with say $8M for the AMF, which is ~50% of what Jamison was asking for, but if history has shown anything, all the potential purchasers have asked for quite a bit more than $8M /year. The CoG might be prepared to give Team Gosbee what they want, but if the well has run dry, its run dry. There just ain't more to give.

If I was the CoG, I would offer Gosbee $6M for the AMF, and then I would ask Gosbee and Bettman....based on the lockout just ended and how the teams are suppose to be so much better off financially, and with enhancements to revenue sharing, and with Bettman telling us how much the game is growing financially...why should the CoG give an AMF above $6M? Shouldn't Gosbee be able to run the team at a profit given all the good that came out of the lockout? If that's not the case than maybe Glendale shouldn't have a team.

As far as Bettman, I would imagine he will tell the CoG what an asset it is for them to have a team, which isn't exactly news to the CoG as they have felt this way all along.

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05-05-2013, 02:53 PM
  #140
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Or maybe they're coming to say they need a deal that includes more than $6MM per year from the city. That's really the question, right? If there's no budget adjustment required, then it seems like there is a clear path to tendering a Professional Services/Sole Source Contract offer; rescinding the RFP; and completing a deal.

If the previous proposals are any indication, it's going to be a request for more than $6MM. Either way, an emergency clause requires 5 aye votes out of 7 members. Without the emergency clause, the league would be unlikely to have certainty on the issue until about mid-June.
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I suppose that you're right, and the COG could turn around and pay a big AMF to keep the team. They'd have to further eviscerate their budget to do so, but it's an odd group there. If they did, then unless it was passed as an Emergency ordinance, I can't see how they could possibly avoid a petition. Perhaps the NHL will indicate that without it being sealed and delivered pronto (via an Emergency ordinance), they need to move on. It would take quite the chutzpah for mayor and council to pass this given the city's financial state.
Start at the 6:50 mark - Get's to the following at 8:11

Quote:
Weiers: "Let me stop you for just a second. This is all assuming, and its a guess... there's nothing for sure, this is all assuming that the Arena Management Fee is no more than the $6M".

Schurhammer: "Yes, that's correct".

Weiers: "...and if that comes in at 8 or 9 then this is all out of whack again".

Schurhammer: "Yes".

(Further)

Schurhammer: "The bottom line message here is, that, we have an unsustainable fiscal situation... that's created by adding the additional expenses. Finally, what you can see is that the General Fund Reserve Level is perilously low in 14 and 15... it gives us no wiggle room whatsoever. So, it gives us a very thin margin for a city of our size and breadth of services".

"... this is not fiscally prudent and it's not recommended that these additional expenses be added in".
This is all, of course, part of the discussion from the 4/26 Budget Workshop and the requests made by the Police/Fire Dept's to add additional resources to regain compliance to national standards. Not that you guys (CF, Whilee) didn't know that. Just putting a "visual" to what you both stated for others to see.

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05-05-2013, 03:04 PM
  #141
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Just putting a "visual" to what you both stated for others to see.
Ya... and thanks for posting that again, reminder. Glendale simply doesnt have it. For a prospective buyer to even ask aided, supported & alibi'd by the NHL is irrational. Doesnt make sense. Sure there's the old axiom "you dont get if you dont ask" but whats to ask of a near-on bankrupt municipality who at paying $6M is a stretch & who will (or should be) be demanding to see some performance for their money? Whomever takes over management of the building with or without the team had better be prepared to be filling in a whole lot of empty dates & turning cash money into tax receipts for the COG or that $6M check's gonna bounce clean on up to Philadelphia & back again.

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05-05-2013, 03:05 PM
  #142
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Because the CoG gave the NHL that 45-50 million, the CoG is screwed. They just cannot afford to give more than the 6 mile per year. Current council, and I think a lot of people, are starting to recognize that now. The NHL does not recognize it IMO.

There is no cash and no credit available.

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05-05-2013, 03:16 PM
  #143
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And for further "optics"

Quote:
WORKSHOP COUNCIL REPORT

This option and its two alternatives are not recommended as a means for funding a portion of the public safety and health insurance issues that are discussed in the Analysis section of this report for the following reasons:

• Glendale ratepayers will view the action as a decision to use their monthly service fee payments to subsidize NHL hockey.

• Water/sewer rates and sanitation/landfill rates will increase sooner and in larger amounts.

• It is contrary to the direction that Council provided numerous times in various public meetings, it is contrary to the information provided to the public through official city financial documents, and it is contrary to the number one recommendation of the Citizens Task Force on Water and Sewer – water and sewer funds should not be transferred to other city funds.

• The city may not be able to demonstrate the financial assurance to meet environmental requirements for the long-term maintenance of the city’s landfill.

• Rating agencies will consider the action as fiscally imprudent and irresponsible and will result in a possible ratings downgrade as the Moody’s December 2012 report indicated when it specifically stated that improvement in the city’s rating would rely on:

* “Substantially improved operating performance including positive and sustainable GF reserves.”

* Also stated that downward adjustments in the city’s ratings could occur with “continued deterioration of the city’s financial position” including “continued reliance on liquidity from enterprises to support general operating requirements.”

It is really important to understand that any further downgrades will negatively impact our ability to borrow in the future for any of the funds such as water/sewer and transportation sales tax, both of which have planned issuances to support extensive capital programs.
Pages 12 - 14 of the 4/26 Workshop Council Report

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05-05-2013, 03:16 PM
  #144
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Because the CoG gave the NHL that 45-50 million, the CoG is screwed. They just cannot afford to give more than the 6 mile per year. Current council, and I think a lot of people, are starting to recognize that now. The NHL does not recognize it IMO.

There is no cash and no credit available.
I'm personally of the opinion that the NHL does know what is going on and is simply feigning ignorance, again, in the effort to smell like roses when they invariably leave town.

I don't think they'll be able to avoid the stench this time.

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05-05-2013, 03:18 PM
  #145
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Honest question, since you're in Glendale... What's the public feeling about the AMF subsidy, and the NHL in the city?

Or is the public not really educated on the goings on with the Coyotes/NHL?
Not to stray too far off topic, the people I have asked, give this feedback:

AMF subsidy - against it, especially since voting for the 'tax increase' for 'public safety'

NHL - not even on their radar (except Coyote fans)

Educated - loaded question, most aren't (see above)

"We did not ask if he had seen any monsters, for monsters have ceased to be news. There is never any shortage of horrible creatures who prey on human beings, snatch away their food, or devour whole populations; but examples of wise social planning are not so easy to find." Thomas More

Fare thee well!

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05-05-2013, 03:22 PM
  #146
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Sonofagun. Looks like Glendale has shaken free of all vestiges of Clarkonomics and are reading real actual numbers and facts.

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05-05-2013, 03:27 PM
  #147
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I'm personally of the opinion that the NHL does know what is going on and is simply feigning ignorance, again, in the effort to smell like roses when they invariably leave town. I don't think they'll be able to avoid the stench this time.
Yes I agree, they'd have to know, Hell, we know all about it, the people of Glendale are learning about it & just how dire a situation its become, those previous expenditures & proposals Moon Shots that not even a city the size of Phoenix or Chicago could likely absorb let alone one of less than 300,000. If thats the game the leagues playing, feigning ignorance, unaware of their intended "city partners" close to destitute predicament having put them there in large part themselves, then I dont know what to say. Their are consequences to doing business, in demanding & receiving massive amounts of cash like that be they from private or public sources. You have to perform. The NHL hasnt performed at all, short of parking the team. $14,000 they spent on advertising & promotion I believe through fiscal 2012. WTF is that? How many non-hockey events? 8? 12? Two of those back-back Taylor Swift Concerts, a few other multi-day bookings. Pathetic.

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05-05-2013, 03:28 PM
  #148
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Ya... and thanks for posting that again, reminder. Glendale simply doesnt have it. For a prospective buyer to even ask aided, supported & alibi'd by the NHL is irrational. Doesnt make sense. Sure there's the old axiom "you dont get if you dont ask" but whats to ask of a near-on bankrupt municipality who at paying $6M is a stretch & who will (or should be) be demanding to see some performance for their money? Whomever takes over management of the building with or without the team had better be prepared to be filling in a whole lot of empty dates & turning cash money into tax receipts for the COG or that $6M check's gonna bounce clean on up to Philadelphia & back again.
This is what it boils down to (stating the obvious... obviously).

$6M/$6.5M is it, and even that is a stretch. Vice versa, that $6/6.5M going the "other" way would begin a very small path towards fiscal responsibility. Not the cure all mind you, but it would certainly alleviate the concerns from Police and Fire... for starters. Hell, even $4M of that would... leaving $2.5M for an AMF to the likes of AEG or Global Spectrum.

But that of course would be life without the Coyotes in the Job. Unless of course the new ownership group has zero needs for a subsidy to offset losses.

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05-05-2013, 03:29 PM
  #149
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so what has happened in this last week? I havent kept up

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05-05-2013, 03:31 PM
  #150
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Location: South of Heaven
Country: Scotland
Posts: 3,068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by azaloum90 View Post
so what has happened in this last week? I havent kept up
Gary and the Entourage are coming to town Tuesday.

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