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Was Jagr better than Lemieux in 1995-96?

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Old
05-23-2013, 03:11 AM
  #251
pdd
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Well, let's put it this way: Ray Bourque was in the league in '96 and Ray Bourque in his WORST season is better than Konstantinov in his best season. Same thing with Hasek and Roy vis-a-vis Osgood. Next.
Ok, I am not continuing it past this post. Any responses will be ignored.

I'd say you're wrong on all counts.
But I would say two are particularly notable.


Bourque vs. Konstantinov in 1997; Bourque was left off the postseason AS team for the first time in his carer, while Konstantinov finished second in Norris voting.

Hasek vs. Osgood in 2008. Osgood was the primary goaltender, went to the All-Star game, and received Vezina and All-Star votes. Although Hasek began the playoffs Osgood played the majority and was a contender for the Conn Smythe trophy.

Opinion is one thing but please, no more false statements?

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05-23-2013, 03:22 AM
  #252
Morgoth Bauglir
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Ok, I am not continuing it past this post. Any responses will be ignored.

I'd say you're wrong on all counts.
But I would say two are particularly notable.


Bourque vs. Konstantinov in 1997; Bourque was left off the postseason AS team for the first time in his carer, while Konstantinov finished second in Norris voting.

Hasek vs. Osgood in 2008. Osgood was the primary goaltender, went to the All-Star game, and received Vezina and All-Star votes. Although Hasek began the playoffs Osgood played the majority and was a contender for the Conn Smythe trophy.

Opinion is one thing but please, no more false statements?
Sorry, we don't rate players by trophy counting and all-star votes thank you very much.

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05-23-2013, 08:00 AM
  #253
Hardyvan123
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Sorry, we don't rate players by trophy counting and all-star votes thank you very much.
No we shouldn't do that, you are right on that front, yet many do.

But it's pretty obvious that some guys can't evaluate players individual seasons in isolation without looking at what they did before and after.

Mario and Wayne always being dominant is a specific case in point to this thread.

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05-23-2013, 08:08 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
Sorry, we don't rate players by trophy counting and all-star votes thank you very much.
So you're saying that in Osgood vs. Hasek in 2008, Hasek was better?

Ridiculous.


Last edited by pdd: 05-23-2013 at 09:12 AM.
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05-23-2013, 12:34 PM
  #255
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Forsberg is in Feds' neighborhood in scoring, but not even close defensively.

Francis played alongside Jagr on the second line in Pittsburgh, and shared the PP with both Jagr and Lemieux; that's a dream situation to post a career year offensively. Which he had. He was excellent defensively, but not as good as Fedorov.

Messier is way behind in both aspects. He was closer to Yzerman; slightly more productive offensively but without the defensive impact. And Fedorov was noticeably better than Yzerman.
Well Messier did finish 2nd in Hart voting at the time. Remember, this is a 1996 Messier. We don't have the hindsight to know how his career fell apart in Vancouver. He was two years removed from captaining a Cup winner and he had a mere 8 points less than Fedorov. Take away offense and I wouldn't say Fedorov brings anymore to the table than Messier at this time. So yeah, they are rather even. The rest of the names I basically just said were comparable to Fedorov that year. Head to head he still had a better year than most, but it's close with a lot of players, and I will say Sakic certainly asserted himself not only in the regular season but the postseason and I think he leapfrogged over Fedorov if he hadn't already.

I guess the thing I am saying is that Fedorov had some peers that year and a few that were better than him. Mario didn't have a peer that year. That's the big difference here.


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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fedorov outscored Sakic at ES in fewer games and was only a shade behind Forsberg in ESPPG, and didn't play with Yzerman on the PP while Sakic and Forsberg were together.

Osgood was named first on 5 of 26 Vezina ballots (19%), top-two on eleven (42%), and top-three on fourteen (54%). There were only 26 teams. Only Jim Carey (5-7-6, or 19%/46%/69%) had a better percentage than Osgood at ANY point. And this is among the league's general managers.

Dominik Hasek went 1-1-1 for both Vezina and AS. Patrick Roy went 1-0-0 for Vezina and 0-0-1 for AS. Vanbiesbrouck went 2-0-1 and 0-0-1. Belfour, Richter, and Joseph went voteless in both. So in total, they all combined for 4-1-2 as a Vezina record, and 3-1-3 for the AS team. If you remove their finishes and place the combined player in their place, Dominik VanbiesRoy finishes fifth for the Vezina and seventh for the All-Star team. Well behind Osgood.

As for Konstantinov, he rarely played the PP as Lidstrom and Coffey dominated the IT there; he instead had increased PK and ES time. He scored 25 ES points compared to Bourque's 42, Leetch's 41, and Chelios' 35. Although two of those guys were very good defensively themselves, Konstantinov had what I would classify as one of if not the greatest defensive season I have ever seen from a defenseman. Lidstrom and Pronger reached high peaks defensively, but it's arguable as to whether they ever beat Konstantinov's level.
But do you want Vladdy on your team in 1996 or Bourque or Chelios? If you need to think for more than a millesecond on that one..........

I think 1996 was one of those weird years for goalies. It happens sometimes where all the elite ones have an off year to their standards. Carey and Osgood were the top two Vezina finishers that year. That's fine, that's how the voting went so whatever. But it was just one of those times when you could take anywhere from 5-10 goalies in the NHL that fans would universally choose over those two. I am not saying anyone else deserved the Vezina, because Carey got a lot of shutouts and since Detroit had such a gaudy record that year so did Osgood making it impossible not to rank him high in a weak year. But this is more just a case of a goalie winning the Vezina based on stats, not on play.

Case in point, neither Carey or Osgood played on the World Cup team that year. Richter started ahead of everyone and Osgood wasn't even selected for Team Canada. Or close to it. For a goalie with the numbers like Osgood it is very difficult to find times in his career when you would consider him to be "great".

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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Hasek vs. Osgood in 2008. Osgood was the primary goaltender, went to the All-Star game, and received Vezina and All-Star votes. Although Hasek began the playoffs Osgood played the majority and was a contender for the Conn Smythe trophy.
To be fair, Osgood finished 11th in Vezina voting in 2008. He had one 3rd place vote. Cristobal Huet finished higher than him if that gives you an indication of things. It doesn't sound too pretty, and yet this was one of Osgood's most elite regular seasons. I also would have put him no higher than 4th on the pecking order for the Conn Smythe. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom are higher than him. Maybe Franzen too.

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05-23-2013, 12:43 PM
  #256
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So you're saying that in Osgood vs. Hasek in 2008, Hasek was better?

Ridiculous.
The fact that once again you've managed to hijack yet another thread and make it all about the Red Wings = ridiculous.

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05-23-2013, 02:20 PM
  #257
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Francis played alongside Jagr on the second line in Pittsburgh, and shared the PP with both Jagr and Lemieux; that's a dream situation to post a career year offensively. Which he had. He was excellent defensively, but not as good as Fedorov.
Just wanted to point out that while this is obviously a great situation for him, the impact on his stats is overstated around here due to a thread a while ago about secondary assists.

People were making the case that Francis had a much higher level of secondary assists than normal for a playmaker in 95-96 because supposedly he just passed to Jagr and let Jagr go and score for him or something.

Apart from the fact that the line of thinking really sells Francis' contribution to the line very short, he was playing the point on the powerplay that year with Zubov and of the 43 secondary assists Francis had that year:

21 were on the PP (makes sense to rack up secondary assists from the point on the PP to me)

19 were ES

3 were on ENG -- obviously with a faceoff artist and defensively capable center like Francis you want him out late protecting a lead.

Just wanted to throw that out there before everyone gives Jagr all the credit for his season like usual.

Having the faceoff ability Francis had played right into Jagr's puck possession game, not to mention his talent and being the defensive safety valve too.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 05-23-2013 at 02:28 PM.
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05-23-2013, 04:38 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Well Messier did finish 2nd in Hart voting at the time. Remember, this is a 1996 Messier. We don't have the hindsight to know how his career fell apart in Vancouver. He was two years removed from captaining a Cup winner and he had a mere 8 points less than Fedorov.
So he wasn't as good offensively as the Selke winner. I'm not getting the argument that makes Messier a better player.

Quote:
Take away offense and I wouldn't say Fedorov brings anymore to the table than Messier at this time. So yeah, they are rather even. The rest of the names I basically just said were comparable to Fedorov that year. Head to head he still had a better year than most, but it's close with a lot of players, and I will say Sakic certainly asserted himself not only in the regular season but the postseason and I think he leapfrogged over Fedorov if he hadn't already.

I guess the thing I am saying is that Fedorov had some peers that year and a few that were better than him. Mario didn't have a peer that year. That's the big difference here.
I'm not disagreeing with Mario>Fedorov. I think the only person here making that argument is Hardy. All I said was that Fedorov seemed pretty locked-in as a top-ten player.

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But do you want Vladdy on your team in 1996 or Bourque or Chelios? If you need to think for more than a millesecond on that one..........
I would take Konstantinov if we're talking just for the 95-96 and/or 96-97 seasons. He was on the ice for 51 GA in 95-96 and 59 GA in 96-97; a total of 110 over those two seasons. Bourque was on the ice for more than that in EACH season (127 in 95-96, 111 in 96-97), and Chelios was on ice for 115 in 95-96, and for 93 in 96-97.

Broken down into numbers, the guys I consider to have been the top-five defensemen those two seasons:

1995-96
Konstantinov 81GP, 34pts, 51GA,
Bourque 82GP, 82 pts, 127GA
Chelios 81GP, 72 pts, 115GA
Leetch 82GP, 85pts, 125GA
Lidstrom 81GP, 67pts, 73GA

1996-97
Konstantinov 77GP, 38pts, 59GA
Bourque 62GP, 50pts, 111GA
Chelios 72GP, 48pts, 93GA
Leetch 82GP, 78pts, 115GA
Lidstrom 79GP, 57pts, 87GA

If you perform a raw "GA minus points" equation, then the seasons rank as follows:

Lidstrom 96
Konstantinov 96
Konstantinov 97
Lidstrom 97
Leetch 97
Leetch 96
Chelios 96
Chelios 97=Bourque 96
Bourque 97

This is where the eyeball test is important; because while we all know Lidstrom was good in 1996, anyone who watched that season will tell you Konstantinov was Detroit's best defenseman and maybe even best player.

Quote:
Case in point, neither Carey or Osgood played on the World Cup team that year. Richter started ahead of everyone and Osgood wasn't even selected for Team Canada. Or close to it. For a goalie with the numbers like Osgood it is very difficult to find times in his career when you would consider him to be "great".
Osgood wasn't selected for Team Canada because it was built by Glen Sather. Look at the goaltending choices. Martin Brodeur, perfectly justifiable; he had just won a Cup and he was in the running for the 1996 Vezina. After him though? Curtis Joseph (Edmonton's starter) and Bill Ranford (just traded to Boston because of the acquisition of Joseph).

Joseph and Ranford are much along the lines of the Dan Cleary Olympic camp invite a couple years back. Cleary is a Babcock guy. And Babcock was the coach.

Quote:
To be fair, Osgood finished 11th in Vezina voting in 2008. He had one 3rd place vote. Cristobal Huet finished higher than him if that gives you an indication of things. It doesn't sound too pretty, and yet this was one of Osgood's most elite regular seasons.
It's also a symptom of playing fewer games. Voters love it when a goalie plays a lot of games, and penalize those who don't. The 1988 Vezina (and almost the Hart) is a great example; Fuhr played decent NHL hockey 75 times. So he must be the best.

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I also would have put him no higher than 4th on the pecking order for the Conn Smythe. Zetterberg, Datsyuk and Lidstrom are higher than him. Maybe Franzen too.
If you put Datsyuk ahead of him for 2008, you must not have had much interest in the Stanley Cup playoffs. I would rank Datsyuk fifth at the soonest. The pecking order in terms of who was actually being talked about for it was as such:

Zetterberg
Osgood

Lidstrom
Franzen

Datsyuk

Everybody else

Hasek

I'd actually love to know what the votes looked like, but those things aren't tracked to my knowledge.

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05-23-2013, 04:40 PM
  #259
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Please GET THIS BACK ON TOPIC.

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05-25-2013, 02:52 PM
  #260
Big Phil
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Just wanted to point out that while this is obviously a great situation for him, the impact on his stats is overstated around here due to a thread a while ago about secondary assists.

People were making the case that Francis had a much higher level of secondary assists than normal for a playmaker in 95-96 because supposedly he just passed to Jagr and let Jagr go and score for him or something.

Apart from the fact that the line of thinking really sells Francis' contribution to the line very short, he was playing the point on the powerplay that year with Zubov and of the 43 secondary assists Francis had that year:

21 were on the PP (makes sense to rack up secondary assists from the point on the PP to me)

19 were ES

3 were on ENG -- obviously with a faceoff artist and defensively capable center like Francis you want him out late protecting a lead.

Just wanted to throw that out there before everyone gives Jagr all the credit for his season like usual.

Having the faceoff ability Francis had played right into Jagr's puck possession game, not to mention his talent and being the defensive safety valve too.
I just thought I would mention, that in any argument for secondary assists vs. primary assists, I think it matters very little - at least to me - that the guy who led the NHL in assists (Francis, along with Lemieux that year) had many secondary assists. I know this seems to matter to a great deal of people but I don't pay too much attention to it. Thank you for at least explaining why he had more secondary assists. But I don't always put a lot of stock into it. There are times when the best play is made by the person with the secondary assist. If you got an assist while you were on the ice you did something right.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
So he wasn't as good offensively as the Selke winner. I'm not getting the argument that makes Messier a better player.

I'm not disagreeing with Mario>Fedorov. I think the only person here making that argument is Hardy. All I said was that Fedorov seemed pretty locked-in as a top-ten player.
No, I get that and I put him top 10 that year too. But the guys I mentioned are players that Fedorov was at least comparable to that year. There are plenty of fine names there right in the mix. That's the thing with Mario, in 1996 he was still peerless. Gretzky was older by then and everyone in the league would agree that while he was still a great player, he was no longer capable of lapping the NHL or even being the premier player anymore. Mario was in a field of his own, possibly even more than we see Crosby today. Right now you would call Crosby the best player in the NHL. 95% would, if not more. After that I would still consider Malkin as #2. There is a gap in my opinion, not unlike a gap we saw with Mario in 1996 and say, Jagr or perhaps Lindros. Maybe the gap with Mario was bigger in 1996. I don't know, but the truth be told, there was a gap and everyone around hockey knew this at the time. That's why he got the Hart trophy and why he had so many first place votes for it along the way. I'll go as far as saying that for nearly two decades there was a consensus as to who the best player in the NHL was. First it was Gretzky, then once Lemieux caught up it was him basically until he retired in 1997. This was really just an accepted notion to people in the game at the time. I remember when Michael Jordan retired in 1998 and people were wondering who the "next" best player in the NBA was going to be. It just wasn't a question before that. That's really the thing I have been trying to explain especially to Hardy.


Quote:
Osgood wasn't selected for Team Canada because it was built by Glen Sather. Look at the goaltending choices. Martin Brodeur, perfectly justifiable; he had just won a Cup and he was in the running for the 1996 Vezina. After him though? Curtis Joseph (Edmonton's starter) and Bill Ranford (just traded to Boston because of the acquisition of Joseph).

Joseph and Ranford are much along the lines of the Dan Cleary Olympic camp invite a couple years back. Cleary is a Babcock guy. And Babcock was the coach.
To be fair, when the 1996 World Cup, 1998 and 2002 Olympics, 2004 World cup 2006 Olympics and 2010 Olympics happned (all but one without Sather) Osgood wasn't picked for any of them either. Not even after what I would agree was a wonderful performance in 2009 in the postseason. He just was never on the radar, not even once, regardless of who was picking the teams. I'll leave it at this, Osgood was a good goalie, a capable goalie, one who wouldn't often blow a game. I wouldn't call him elite or capable of stealing a series though.

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