HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Was Messier (6 Cups) the Greatest Oiler v. #99?

View Poll Results: Is Messier the Greatest Oiler?
Yes of course Messier was THE Leader, 5 cups dont lie! 10 13.51%
No, it was 99. 64 86.49%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-06-2005, 02:36 AM
  #26
KOVALEV10*
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Simply the best!
Posts: 3,314
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
And that could be what compared to a montage of Gretzkys greatest plays? I mean come on Matt Cooke and Daniel Sedin have also had some nice goals, and nice plays. Does that make them in the same stratosphere as Gretzky or Lemieux?
No because none of these guys are considered legends. Lafleur is and the fact that he has incredible stats in his prime, his incredible clutch performances in the playoffs, 3 art ross tropies in a row, 3 pearson trophies in a row, 2 hart trophies, 1 conn smythe trophy and 5 stanley cups is what puts him in the same league as Wayne. He also had a thrilling style that made him idolized by such greats as Lemieux and Gretzky himself. And what makes it even more impressive is that he was able to be that great despite smoking 2 packs a day and drinking. If only didnt smoke and drink and take care of himself he would've been considered in the same league a lot more then he is now.

KOVALEV10* is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 02:45 AM
  #27
Cerebral
Registered User
 
Cerebral's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,797
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bugg
K10, I think what would sway the opinion of the masses voting in this poll would be a montage of Lafleur's greatest plays.

Cerebral is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 04:01 AM
  #28
revolverjgw
Registered User
 
revolverjgw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Nova Scotia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,320
vCash: 500
Quote:
3 art ross tropies in a row, 3 pearson trophies in a row, 2 hart trophies, 1 conn smythe trophy and 5 stanley cups is what puts him in the same league as Wayne.
Wayne had nearly 5 times as many Harts, more than tripled Guy's Art Ross', doubled his Conn Smythes... not the same ''league'' at all (assuming a league in this context is the same thing as a tier). Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/maybe Howe are in the first league, Guy can't compare. And there's no shame in that.

Cut it out with the smoking/drinking thing. That's one more reason why Wayne is the best. If you're going to give hypothetical bonus points to a player because of some hardships, do the same for Wayne and consider the extra hardware he could have won if he hadn't had back problems and played on a few horrible teams after leaving Edmonton. Guy's imaginary extra accomplishments are negated, it's only fair to Wayne.

revolverjgw is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 04:08 AM
  #29
VanIslander
Hope for better 2015
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8haluschak
Did you watch the Oilers - well obviously not with such a comment, yeah he let in 4 goals, with very little defense infront of him, but there was no way he lets in the winning goal in the big games. To put Esa ahead of Fuhr that is a good one even Kurri is pushing it ahead of Fuhr.
Tikkanen should have been MVP of Edmonton's last Cup, IMO and he was a clutch goal scorer for cups before that.

I saw every damn game of every damn Cup win. I am a Canuck fan who got the Gretzky bite early and followed the OIlers from the day they first met the dreaded (Canuck-killin') Islanders in the final.

I gave up on the Oilers when Mess left town, but I've a fond spot for all Oilers, especially from the Cup-winning era.

I liked Fuhr a lot but NEVER thought he was deserving of a Conn Smythe. Messier, Gretz and Tikkanen all were at one point or another.

Again, IMO and in the opinion of some (not all) of my Oiler buddies back in Kamlooops, B.C. (prime Flames-hating territory).

VanIslander is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 05:36 AM
  #30
JCD
Registered User
 
JCD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country:
Posts: 14,445
vCash: 500
Considering Messier played 2nd line to Gretzky during their time together, I think it is a pretty safe bet as to which was the better, and more critical, player. All you had to do is watch ONE GAME with them together.

JCD is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 05:39 AM
  #31
reckoning
Registered User
 
reckoning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,493
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
As for this thread, we all know that offensively Wayne was better then Mark. But who was more valuable to the team? Who was the leader? Who was their most complete player? Oh and without Wayne Edmonton still won a cup but without Mark they didn't.
And the year after Lafleur retired Montreal won the Cup without him.

reckoning is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 05:41 AM
  #32
JCD
Registered User
 
JCD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country:
Posts: 14,445
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
And the year after Lafleur retired Montreal won the Cup without him.
And four of the six beforehand.

JCD is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 05:55 AM
  #33
VanIslander
Hope for better 2015
 
VanIslander's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 19,549
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
Considering Messier played 2nd line to Gretzky during their time together, I think it is a pretty safe bet as to which was the better, and more critical, player. All you had to do is watch ONE GAME with them together.
Typical 1st line centre scores goals (offensive oriented).
Typical 2nd line centre scores and checks opposing 1st line centre (two-way play).

Which of the top two lines played on is no indication. Messier played more often than Gretzky when certain match-ups were desired with last shift change on home ice.

Many fans overvalue offensive and undermine defensive play. Why the heck Gainey isn't on some people's Top50 players of all time list is entirely beyond me. Messier too is obviously and clearly a Top50 guy, except to fans who only remember the last third of his long career. But Gretzky is Top10 no matter how you evaluate it.

That said, I still believe Messier was a better leader than Gretzky.

VanIslander is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 06:43 AM
  #34
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Many fans overvalue offensive and undermine defensive play. Why the heck Gainey isn't on some people's Top50 players of all time list is entirely beyond me.

As good as Gainey was, he isn't a top 50 all-time player. At the very best he was only the 4th best Hab of the late 70's/early 80's.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 06:44 AM
  #35
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
That said, I still believe Messier was a better leader than Gretzky.

Leaders don't have to yell and scream in order to be extremely effective. IMO Messier is the most overrated leader in sports.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 07:03 AM
  #36
#66
Registered User
 
#66's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: United States
Posts: 10,470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Leaders don't have to yell and scream in order to be extremely effective. IMO Messier is the most overrated leader in sports.
I'll second that!!!

#66 is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 07:13 AM
  #37
pei fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,536
vCash: 500
Chooch,it looks like this poll backfired on you. As for the answer to your poll
question all you had to do was travel to Northlands Colesium(I think they call it
something else now-a sponsor name ?).Outside the Arena there is 15 foot statue
of the greatest Oiler of all time.I'm not totally sure of the directions but get on a plane to Edmonton and once there look for a street called Wayne Gretzky Way.
If you are lost, just stop and ask ANYBODY where you can find the statue of the
greatest Oiler of all time.*CAUTION-do not ask anyone that appears to have the
same level of intelligence as yourself,they may give you directions to Mark Messiers mothers basement.

pei fan is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 08:32 AM
  #38
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Leaders don't have to yell and scream in order to be extremely effective. IMO Messier is the most overrated leader in sports.
Agreed. His accomplishments speak for themselves, but at a point, I felt that he had become president of the Mark Mesier is God hype machine. Yeah he won singlehandedly in NY, except for Richter and Leetch., but that doesn't make as good a story.

I'm trying to get rid of some old sports stuff and I was going thru some old hockey magazines. One of them has a cover story of Messier , The Oiler's Best Player ? I guess we didn't invent the topic. Every great team has arguements as to who really is the 'guy'.

John, if you won't put Gainey in the top 50, I hope you'd put him ahead of Gary bloody Dornhoefer. Gainey gets a lot of accolades for doing, the little things. Unfortunately, most fans can't discern the little things so we assume that our guy is good at them and we go on comments like Tarasov's, though in truth he could've been on his 30th vodka when he said that. Posters have tried to rank Marcotte with Gainey, I suspect Claude Provost should be up there, there have been others that can't be there by the numbers. I rate him highly because he's the only defensive forward, I've seen who at times would be the dominant player in a game. I tend to listen to guys like Bowman when they discuss certain palyers value, though you know he has his biases too, and yes he considers Gainey among his best.

mcphee is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 08:41 AM
  #39
Drake1588
UNATCO
 
Drake1588's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 27,929
vCash: 500
Messier would be the greatest player ever for a number of franchises had he played there, just not this one. It's no mean feat being second to Gretzky on any list.

Drake1588 is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 09:20 AM
  #40
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
John, if you won't put Gainey in the top 50, I hope you'd put him ahead of Gary bloody Dornhoefer. Gainey gets a lot of accolades for doing, the little things. Unfortunately, most fans can't discern the little things so we assume that our guy is good at them and we go on comments like Tarasov's, though in truth he could've been on his 30th vodka when he said that. Posters have tried to rank Marcotte with Gainey, I suspect Claude Provost should be up there, there have been others that can't be there by the numbers. I rate him highly because he's the only defensive forward, I've seen who at times would be the dominant player in a game. I tend to listen to guys like Bowman when they discuss certain palyers value, though you know he has his biases too, and yes he considers Gainey among his best.
I wasn't trying to diminish what Gainey was, but to be a top 50 all-time player is a truly an incredible feat. In order to be one of the best 50 players of all-time, you almost had to have been one of the top 5-10 players in the NHL while you played. Gainey was never on that level.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 10:56 AM
  #41
mcphee
Registered User
 
mcphee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 19,105
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
I wasn't trying to diminish what Gainey was, but to be a top 50 all-time player is a truly an incredible feat. In order to be one of the best 50 players of all-time, you almost had to have been one of the top 5-10 players in the NHL while you played. Gainey was never on that level.
I know John. I didn't think that you were, unless you suddenly got stupid and I didn't think that was the case. Gainey might be the toughest to evaluate because it's all supposition, and intangibles, you can't really go by the numbers. Like going on about Messier's leadership, talk is talk, but it's immeasurable. You'd think that the greateset leader in the history of sports would have pulled that high priced team together at least one of the last five years, wouldn't you ?

mcphee is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 11:10 AM
  #42
Stephen
Registered User
 
Stephen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 34,396
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Messier won 5 Cups with the Oilers and 1 almost singlehandedly in legendary style with the Rangers. He was the greatest leader of the past 25 years. Like Lafleur (5 Cups) before him, he never let the Oilers lose, never hung out at centre collecting meaningless points and goals.

The first time the Oilers won the Cup he was the playoff MVP and then in 90, after Coffey and Gretzky were cast adrift as expendables, he won the Cup again.

He then took the hapless Rangers and rather than winning an Art Ross with a minus 25 took them to the holy grail with fearsome 2 way play. He knew that scoring 200 points but giving up 130 goals was not the kind of play that won you respect amongst the Rockets and Gordies and Jeans and Guys, and Bobby's. They didnt play that way and neither did no.11.

For him the only statistic was the only one that really counted; the only reason hockey is played - Number of Cups. And he won more then 99.

He was the most fearsome player on the Oilers and the only one Sather and Pockingnton were reluctant to trade or allow to leave. Others like Coffey and Gretzky were expendable.

His influence on the game is as great as Orr's and Lafleurs - present day leaders such as Iginla and Yzerman looked up to him and him alone.

He was the greatest player on the Oiler dynasty. And like Lafleur, the proud lion, no one had to protect Messier and thats the way he wanted it He fought his own battles. He was a Man respected by friend and foe, unlike his higher scoring teammate.

And Messier never rang up the score late in the game but still was a 50 goal scorer and never whooped it up against the likes of loser goalies like Liut etc. like 99 did.

And when his team needed him most like in the "guaranteed win game", he didnt let them down just as the great Lafleur didnt let his teamdown in the too many men game.
You make it sound like Mark Messier invented leadership "present day leaders such as Iginla and Yzerman looked up to him and him alone." As if leaders didn't exist in the game before.

Stephen is online now  
Old
05-06-2005, 11:15 AM
  #43
John Flyers Fan
Registered User
 
John Flyers Fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 22,394
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcphee
I know John. I didn't think that you were, unless you suddenly got stupid and I didn't think that was the case. Gainey might be the toughest to evaluate because it's all supposition, and intangibles, you can't really go by the numbers. Like going on about Messier's leadership, talk is talk, but it's immeasurable. You'd think that the greateset leader in the history of sports would have pulled that high priced team together at least one of the last five years, wouldn't you ?

Messier gets all the pub because the Raners hadn't won in 54 years and because of the guarantee. Namath guaranted a Super Bowl when the were huge underdogs, he is revered for it, but not thought of as a great leader.

Yes, Messier scored the Hat Trick ... but Richter kept them in that game early, and Kovalev was the best Ranger on the ice that 3rd period.

I also think most assume that Messier won the Conn Smythe ... but Brian Leetch was the star, and the best player throughout the playoffs.

"Leaders" adapt their game ... ala Yzerman and Stevens as they've gotten older, focus more on defense since they can no longer provide the offense they once did. Messier has never adapted his game that way.


Messier is one of the best players to ever play the game, but I wouldn't have him among my top 5 NHL captains of the last 30 years, let alone be the best of all-time.

John Flyers Fan is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 11:32 AM
  #44
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
My question is:

How did chooch vote 3 times?

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 12:52 PM
  #45
JCD
Registered User
 
JCD's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country:
Posts: 14,445
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
Typical 1st line centre scores goals (offensive oriented).
Typical 2nd line centre scores and checks opposing 1st line centre (two-way play).

Which of the top two lines played on is no indication. Messier played more often than Gretzky when certain match-ups were desired with last shift change on home ice.

Many fans overvalue offensive and undermine defensive play. Why the heck Gainey isn't on some people's Top50 players of all time list is entirely beyond me. Messier too is obviously and clearly a Top50 guy, except to fans who only remember the last third of his long career. But Gretzky is Top10 no matter how you evaluate it.

That said, I still believe Messier was a better leader than Gretzky.
Two things,

1) Why did Gretzky's teammates vote him their team MVP and not Messier then? Don't you think their fellow players might know who was more valuable and the betterp player? Why did Gretzky win every award know while Messier was rarely even nominated?

2) If you think Wayne is clear top-10 and Messier only top-50, why did you vote the opposite? Do you think Messier was better or was Wayne better.

JCD is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 12:55 PM
  #46
Ogopogo*
 
Ogopogo*'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Edmonton
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,214
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by JCD
Two things,

1) Why did Gretzky's teammates vote him their team MVP and not Messier then? Don't you think their fellow players might know who was more valuable and the betterp player? Why did Gretzky win every award know while Messier was rarely even nominated?

2) If you think Wayne is clear top-10 and Messier only top-50, why did you vote the opposite? Do you think Messier was better or was Wayne better.
Wayne is clearly #1. I have Messier at #24.

Ogopogo* is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 08:44 PM
  #47
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen
You make it sound like Mark Messier invented leadership "present day leaders such as Iginla and Yzerman looked up to him and him alone." As if leaders didn't exist in the game before.
How much clearer can I be? - I said Orr, lafleur, there was Jean, Rocket, Gordie,phil, mikita, etc etc You really want me to include sundin?

chooch* is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 08:45 PM
  #48
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2
No thanks, I've wasted enough time reading your first post as it is.

Your attempts at debunking Gretzky were kind of funny at first. Now not so much...........
do i care?

chooch* is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 08:48 PM
  #49
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I remember when I was a young Gretzky fan and there would be those kids that were jealous of him so they hated him. Gretzky's life was nearly perfect. He was the greatest hockey player in the world on the greatest team in the world, he was a media darling and virtually never said anything that was not complimentary about anyone. He broke all the records by a wide margin.

Jealous kids hated him for it.

chooch is one of those kids.
Let me spend hours constructing a thread where 99 gets 18 points for a hart and ross and the runnerup for the hart gets 0. Thatll be reeeealll scientific

how about -130 for every ross where youre a minus player.

chooch* is offline  
Old
05-06-2005, 08:50 PM
  #50
chooch*
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 946
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Is chooch a nutjob that will do anything to try to convince himself that Wayne is not the greatest player of all time? YES

People are laughing at your foolish attacks on "The Great One". Face it. The Habs did not have the greatest player of all time. Or the second or even the third. Accept it and move on.

I said 99 is the second best offensive player of his generation. He's not the best player ever. Not even close. That would be another player you never saw - from boston.

chooch* is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:42 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.