Trade Rumors and Free Agent TalkTrade rumors, transactions, and free agent talk. Rumors must contain the word RUMOR in post title. Proposals must contain the word PROPOSAL in post title.
And if he doesn't end up unrestricted, as a Blues fan I don't touch this trade.
Don't get emotional about players, particularly those chewing up 25% of your cap room (presuming - probably correctly so - that we'll have a cap in the neighborhood of $40M). Pronger is an absolute animal in all facets of the game, but the opportunity to move $10M off the roster should be STRONGLY considered. Payroll flexibility IS a commodity, and getting a budding star and what looks like a servicable (at least) center in return is a BONANZA.
I've been writing way too many words in CAPITAL letters lately.
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Nevertheless, I think you're right on about him being unmovable, which would make this discussion moot. Not that ever stopped this forum before!
Edit: Are you saying he's unmovable or that you'd expect "elite talent" in return? I don't know if I'm retracting the previous paragraph; let me just write that in a post-cap world, expecting anything in return is delusional (and I mean that in a nice way), and WANTING anything worth a whole bunch of money puts one in a sleeveless shirt. Again, payroll flexibility is a commodity and I'm still writing in capital letters. In this case, the Blues would be getting Pitkanen, Umberger, and $7.5M usable cap cash in return. That's gold (Jerry).
As a NYR fan , I wouldnt do the deal either. Umberger is more expendable considering Philly has Carter, Richards and Handzus. But Pitkanen should be a star.
As a NYR fan , I wouldnt do the deal either. Umberger is more expendable considering Philly has Carter, Richards and Handzus. But Pitkanen should be a star.
Umberger is going to be moved to the wing when he gets to Philadelphia.
Don't get emotional about players, particularly those chewing up 25% of your cap room (presuming - probably correctly so - that we'll have a cap in the neighborhood of $40M). Pronger is an absolute animal in all facets of the game, but the opportunity to move $10M off the roster should be STRONGLY considered. Payroll flexibility IS a commodity, and getting a budding star and what looks like a servicable (at least) center in return is a BONANZA.
I've been writing way too many words in CAPITAL letters lately.
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Nevertheless, I think you're right on about him being unmovable, which would make this discussion moot. Not that ever stopped this forum before!
Edit: Are you saying he's unmovable or that you'd expect "elite talent" in return? I don't know if I'm retracting the previous paragraph; let me just write that in a post-cap world, expecting anything in return is delusional (and I mean that in a nice way), and WANTING anything worth a whole bunch of money puts one in a sleeveless shirt. Again, payroll flexibility is a commodity and I'm still writing in capital letters. In this case, the Blues would be getting Pitkanen, Umberger, and $7.5M usable cap cash in return. That's gold (Jerry).
1) Nobody is expecting "Elite" talent in return, but we do expect a good sized return considering his immediate value to a Cup contender. The basic components of this trade boils down to this: The leagues top D man for a still unproven player(albiet one with a high upside) and a mid level prospect. That isn't enough of a return for us even considering his contract. Right now we would want this as a return: a young forward(at least 2-3 years away from UFA), a top 4 D man and a choice of either "a upper tier prospect and a 3rd" or "a 1st round pick and a mid-level prospect". You can say this is asking too much in return, but we are the ones setting the price right now and we don't have to deal him. If you want to trade for Pronger you pay our price.
2) Everybody is acting like the Blues are hard pressed for Cap room, we're not so quit talking like we are. The Blues do not need to make any trades right now, if we do make one it will be to better our team, not downgrade it(or rebuild). The Blues are not going to rebuild, get that crazy notion out of your heads. Pleau and Laurie still expect this team to be a contender when play resumes and they aren't going to do anything to eliminate those chances.
3) To sum up what I just said, the Blues aren't not going to trade Pronger as a salary dump. Right now the asking price(from Philly) is: Pitkanen, Carter, Radiovojevic and a 3rd. If that is too steep a price for you we're perfectly fine with keeping Pronger.
As others have said, none of this matters because Pronger will be a UFA unless the contracts carry over(regardless of whether the age is lowered).
3) To sum up what I just said, the Blues aren't not going to trade Pronger as a salary dump. Right now the asking price(from Philly) is: Pitkanen, Carter, Radiovojevic and a 3rd. If that is too steep a price for you we're perfectly fine with keeping Pronger.
As others have said, none of this matters because Pronger will be a UFA unless the contracts carry over(regardless of whether the age is lowered).
you're kidding yourself if you think a team will give up that much for Pronger,possibly 1 yr from unrestricted free agency and taking up $8m-$10m in salary cap space.
you're kidding yourself if you think a team will give up that much for Pronger,possibly 1 yr from unrestricted free agency and taking up $8m-$10m in salary cap space.
And you're kidding yourself if you think we'll trade the best D man in the league for a midlevel prospect and an unproven player. That type of return wouldn't land you ANY top 2 D man, much less one of the leagues top 2.
And as I said, we're perfectly fine keeping him. We do not need, nor particularly want, to trade him so IF you want him you pay our price, wait till he's a FA or you don't get him. It's that simple.
And you're kidding yourself if you think we'll trade the best D man in the league for a midlevel prospect and an unproven player. That type of return wouldn't land you ANY top 2 D man, much less one of the leagues top 2.
And as I said, we're perfectly fine keeping him. We do not need, nor particularly want, to trade him so IF you want him you pay our price, wait till he's a FA or you don't get him. It's that simple.
The best d-man in the league makes $10m a yr,at a time the league will be working under a salary cap.The deep pocketed teams already are hoping for salary rollbacks to fit their current rosters under the cap,it's unlikely that any of them have $10m to spend on one player.
A lack of trade partners will keep the Blues from getting anywhere close to what you proposed.so if they don't have to trade him,they shouldn't.
I agree with Crew here... no way Pronger will be able to get that kind of return... and it's not a knock on his value to a team on the ice.
Salaries are a huge issue. If the CBA rolls back contracts for another year (only way he's worth something), then you have a $10mill Pronger with 1 yr left under a new CBA. Contenders that actually have a need for him as a 1-yr rental, aren't going to have the salary cap space to add that kind of salary... when you want back top young cheap talent in return, the value is even more ridiculous because the Flyers (for example here) aren't a team that can afford to add $10mill to their payroll and not move high end contracts the other way.
The teams that have more space under a cap, arent' going to be in a position to give up young talent for a 1yr rental, as they aren't top contenders.
Pronger's value is low as a result. It's not like there's no demand for the player, but there is zero demand for that contract - especially on contenders that have other big contracts on their payroll, and for non-contenders isn't not an issue since they aren't about to give up anything for a 1yr add on, no matter how good he is.
Pronger's a great player, but has little value. Jagr's value could be comparable - where even when the Caps ate $5mill/yr of his $11mill/yr deal, they still managed only to get back a soon to be RFA that they had no intentions of re-signing.
While Pronger is a more valuable player here, Jagr is also signed longterm to a $6mill/yr (as Washington is picking up the other $5mill/yr) deal and is still one of the top players in the game... that IMO makes Jagr worth more than a $10mill Pronger signed for 1 more year under a new CBA (if he's even signed for 1 more year with a roll over on 2004 contracts in a new CBA).
I agree with Crew here... no way Pronger will be able to get that kind of return... and it's not a knock on his value to a team on the ice.
Salaries are a huge issue. If the CBA rolls back contracts for another year (only way he's worth something), then you have a $10mill Pronger with 1 yr left under a new CBA. Contenders that actually have a need for him as a 1-yr rental, aren't going to have the salary cap space to add that kind of salary... when you want back top young cheap talent in return, the value is even more ridiculous because the Flyers (for example here) aren't a team that can afford to add $10mill to their payroll and not move high end contracts the other way.
The teams that have more space under a cap, arent' going to be in a position to give up young talent for a 1yr rental, as they aren't top contenders.
Pronger's value is low as a result. It's not like there's no demand for the player, but there is zero demand for that contract - especially on contenders that have other big contracts on their payroll, and for non-contenders isn't not an issue since they aren't about to give up anything for a 1yr add on, no matter how good he is.
Pronger's a great player, but has little value. Jagr's value could be comparable - where even when the Caps ate $5mill/yr of his $11mill/yr deal, they still managed only to get back a soon to be RFA that they had no intentions of re-signing.
While Pronger is a more valuable player here, Jagr is also signed longterm to a $6mill/yr (as Washington is picking up the other $5mill/yr) deal and is still one of the top players in the game... that IMO makes Jagr worth more than a $10mill Pronger signed for 1 more year under a new CBA (if he's even signed for 1 more year with a roll over on 2004 contracts in a new CBA).
Everything you are saying makes sense, but you are forgetting one very important thing: St. Louis does not need or want to trade Pronger. I admit Prongers TV is low right now. That isn't even a debateable issue. However, St. Louis has the option to keep him. It's one thing if you're talking about a team like Toronto or Detroit who will have to clear money for Cap reasons or somebody entering a rebuild like Washington or NYR, but the Blues are not one of those teams. The Blues do not have any Cap problems right now and we have no desire to go into a rebuild. We can easily afford to keep Pronger(in fact we can probably add a few FA's). Since St. Louis has the OPTION to keep him they can ask for anything they want. I've told you St. Louis' asking price. If nobody wants to pay that price it's fine by us. I'm sure we can survive another year with the best D man in hockey.
Everything you are saying makes sense, but you are forgetting one very important thing: St. Louis does not need or want to trade Pronger. I admit Prongers TV is low right now. That isn't even a debateable issue. However, St. Louis has the option to keep him. It's one thing if you're talking about a team like Toronto or Detroit who will have to clear money for Cap reasons or somebody entering a rebuild like Washington or NYR, but the Blues are not one of those teams. The Blues do not have any Cap problems right now and we have no desire to go into a rebuild. We can easily afford to keep Pronger(in fact we can probably add a few FA's). Since St. Louis has the OPTION to keep him they can ask for anything they want. I've told you St. Louis' asking price. If nobody wants to pay that price it's fine by us. I'm sure we can survive another year with the best D man in hockey.
I agree with you on the Blues not having to move Pronger. But I disagree with you on the STL asking price? Sorry are you STL management that you would know what their asking price would be?
You suggested Pitkanen, Carter, Rad and a 3rd... I think that the Blues would jump on Pitkanen straight up for Pronger - and a deal that the Flyers would never make.
I can just as easily say that the canucks asking price on Bertuzzi would be Jackman, Backman, 2 top propsect and a 1st... doesn't mean that it's close to the actual canucks asking price just because I'm suggesting it.
Right now as it stands, STL only has the option to hold onto Pronger, if the NHL rolls over last season's contracts, otherwise, he's a UFA anyways. And even if they roll it over, what sense does it make for the Blues - who really are a lot closer to rebuilding than they are of contending - to keep Pronger for one year before he's a UFA then to land a top young player like Pitkanen who could be their top dman for years to come past the Pronger era?
For what it's worth, I don't think that STL moves Pronger, but I don't think there is any way that they even get mild interest in Pronger for anything close to Pitkanen, let alone the pkg you mentioned... and if they do, then IMO they'd jump all over it - if they don't then the Blues management really dropped the ball on it, keeping a guy who will be a UFA soon regardless, and give him $10mill of their cap space for 1 yr rather than go after one of the top young defensemen in the game - and that on a team that isn't a contender.
I agree with you on the Blues not having to move Pronger. But I disagree with you on the STL asking price? Sorry are you STL management that you would know what their asking price would be?
You suggested Pitkanen, Carter, Rad and a 3rd... I think that the Blues would jump on Pitkanen straight up for Pronger - and a deal that the Flyers would never make.
I can just as easily say that the canucks asking price on Bertuzzi would be Jackman, Backman, 2 top propsect and a 1st... doesn't mean that it's close to the actual canucks asking price just because I'm suggesting it.
Right now as it stands, STL only has the option to hold onto Pronger, if the NHL rolls over last season's contracts, otherwise, he's a UFA anyways. And even if they roll it over, what sense does it make for the Blues - who really are a lot closer to rebuilding than they are of contending - to keep Pronger for one year before he's a UFA then to land a top young player like Pitkanen who could be their top dman for years to come past the Pronger era?
For what it's worth, I don't think that STL moves Pronger, but I don't think there is any way that they even get mild interest in Pronger for anything close to Pitkanen, let alone the pkg you mentioned... and if they do, then IMO they'd jump all over it - if they don't then the Blues management really dropped the ball on it, keeping a guy who will be a UFA soon regardless, and give him $10mill of their cap space for 1 yr rather than go after one of the top young defensemen in the game - and that on a team that isn't a contender.
Actually, my asking price was put forth by Derrick Goold(the Blues beat writer), and he does have sources in the Blues management. According to him the price for Pronger is this: a top 4 D man, a NHL level forward with upside and 2 upper tier prospects(or 2 first round picks). The price is intentionally high because we don't want to trade him. Note that phrase, the Blues do NOT want to trade Pronger. As long as we keep him, Pleau views this as a PO caliber team(and he has said repeatedly that keeping the PO streak alive is one of his primary goals). Nothing is going to change Pleau's POV so you'd have to offer a really high price to pry Pronger out of St. Louis. Basically: if you want Pronger you WILL have to overpay.
Also, Pronger for Pitkanen straight up? You're high if you think that would happen. Pronger right now is twice as good as Pitkanen PROJECTS to be(that's not downgrading Pitkanen, that is simply a testiment to how good Pronger is). You are VASTLY overrating Pitkanen if you think you can get a player of Prongers caliber straight up for him( even if you do take contracts into consideration).
Actually, my asking price was put forth by Derrick Goold(the Blues beat writer), and he does have sources in the Blues management. According to him the price for Pronger is this: a top 4 D man, a NHL level forward with upside and 2 upper tier prospects(or 2 first round picks). The price is intentionally high because we don't want to trade him. Note that phrase, the Blues do NOT want to trade Pronger. As long as we keep him, Pleau views this as a PO caliber team(and he has said repeatedly that keeping the PO streak alive is one of his primary goals). Nothing is going to change Pleau's POV so you'd have to offer a really high price to pry Pronger out of St. Louis. Basically: if you want Pronger you WILL have to overpay.
Also, Pronger for Pitkanen straight up? You're high if you think that would happen. Pronger right now is twice as good as Pitkanen PROJECTS to be(that's not downgrading Pitkanen, that is simply a testiment to how good Pronger is). You are VASTLY overrating Pitkanen if you think you can get a player of Prongers caliber straight up for him( even if you do take contracts into consideration).
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree if you think that an asset like Pronger (contracts included) could get you a young player like Pitkanen.
I still think that the Blues would jump on this offer, regardless of what they say now - which all makes sense, since their #1 priority should be re-signing Pronger, and saying through the media that they are interested in moving him, or even that they would consider moving him for what could be seen as "fair" value for that contract, doesn't make sense from Blues management POV, in hopes that Pronger will re-sign with the team.
Pronger is one hell of a player, but I dont' think that ANY player in the NHL under those situations - a current RFA at what could easily be UFA age under a new CBA - with a qualifying offer of $10mill - no matter how good a player he is - is simply not worth much on the market.
And reading comments from blues management - through local media - about a player they would like to retain, and what it would take to get him on trade, needs to be taken with a grain of salt.
You're not following me. Pronger signed a one year deal before what was supposed to be the 2004-05 season. Many people assume that he will now not be under contract, but it's not known if the NHLPA wants to keep the missed year worth of salaries. That's something that the NHL and NHLPA will have to decide.
It is definitely in the league's best interest to let contracts for this year expire for the most part. For teams like the Blues and Flyers, a year off the contracts of Tkachuk, Weight, Leclair, Amonte, Roenick are all very beneficial. If a cap is in place, unloading bigger contracts will help the teams, also lowering any potential buyouts of contracts. While this works poorly for teams like the Sens where they have Hossa under contract for 3.25 million, Chara for 4.5, and Havlat for 2.3, it works very well for those teams that made dumb contract decisions. Unfortunately the dumb teams make up most of the league. As well, it's a matter of age, if you have a player under contract at age 41, maybe after a year off they just can't come back, they're done.
It is definitely in the league's best interest to let contracts for this year expire for the most part. For teams like the Blues and Flyers, a year off the contracts of Tkachuk, Weight, Leclair, Amonte, Roenick are all very beneficial. If a cap is in place, unloading bigger contracts will help the teams, also lowering any potential buyouts of contracts. While this works poorly for teams like the Sens where they have Hossa under contract for 3.25 million, Chara for 4.5, and Havlat for 2.3, it works very well for those teams that made dumb contract decisions. Unfortunately the dumb teams make up most of the league. As well, it's a matter of age, if you have a player under contract at age 41, maybe after a year off they just can't come back, they're done.
Another nice thing about that is Tkachuck would be on a $5m club option year(not sure if rollback would be included on that). And weight on a possible rollback.
I agree with kimzey59 though. The blues are in better position to just resign pronger, than trade him. And why wouldnt you?
Agree with topself about re-signing Pronger. But, what will be the price tag of signing a top 3 player at his position in the "new" CBA. And would other teams have the cap room for a sign and trade deal. Normally, Pronger would get above the value of the Blake trade, but in this current financial state I think the paradigm has changed for trade values.
Chris Pronger to the Flyers for Joni Pitkanen and RJ Umberger.
Yeah, I know that Salary Cap ramifications will come into play and that Pronger is guaranteed $10 million for the upcoming season, but this would be if the Flyers could sign Pronger to a reasonable exentension under the new cap guidelines.
Philly is getting a 30-year-old, Norris Trophy defensemen, who still has incredible hockey in front of him. Somewhat of an injury history, but I feel like the year off could actually help him. In my opinion, Pronger can play at a Norris Trophy level for the next 5-7 years. He can play into his late-thirties, ala McInnis or Stevens. Pronger would be a perfect compliment to an emerging Johnson and Markov.
Umberger had a great year in the AHL, especially considering that he missed a full year of hockey. Projects to a 2nd line NHL center in my opinion. Pitkanen is widely considered one of the best d-men prospects in all of hockey. Umberger becomes expendable because of Richards and Carter.
this Blues fan would do it and I love Prongs as a player.
Pronger is one of the few players in the NHL who has hit 30, has a big contract, and still has trade value (assuming he is not an UFA). But, I agree with Nuckfan. A team trading for him will not be giving up somebody like Pitakenen. And, the package that kimzey59 describes may be what Blues management would want for him, but that simply isn't going to happen.
Pronger is one of the few players in the NHL who has hit 30, has a big contract, and still has trade value (assuming he is not an UFA). But, I agree with Nuckfan. A team trading for him will not be giving up somebody like Pitakenen. And, the package that kimzey59 describes may be what Blues management would want for him, but that simply isn't going to happen.
Right, depends what the Blues are willing to take. IN a salary cap world, the Blues aren't dealing from strength. In fact, I bet the Flyers wouldn't even need to give up any of Pitkanen, Carter or Richards.
I think it's illogical to not consider the value of having $10M that you're not paying to one player, regardless of whom that player might be. If this were a discussion about a fantasy league, nobody in their right mind would trade Pronger for any player. However, this isn't a discussion about a fantasy league. In the real world, Larry Pleau is going to have a tough time filling out his roster while he's playing one guy 25% of his payroll limit.
As for more real-world stuff, getting a big, expensive name in return is the only way Pronger could get moved, because I can't see a world in which another team gives up truly valuable players like Carter, Pitkanen, Richards, et al., for financial albatrosses like Pronger. Pleau would get lucky to hedge his bets by obtaining a somewhat cheaper but still expensive player in return. Just to stress the point, from a shear talent and on-ice value point-of-view, the three Flyer prospects can't hold a candle to Pronger right now. However, I'd much, much, much (insert infinite number of "muches" here) rather have Pitkanen at $1.2-odd million and $8.8M in cash as opposed to Pronger. It's such a silly question if I want success for my hockey team that all I ask is to be notified if those wanting Pronger decide to enter the business world so I can work with them.
I think the most important thing fans can do is rid themselves of conventional wisdom that dictates a player's value is merely a reflection of what they contribute on the ice. The league wasn't operational this year in great part because NHL front offices ignored this definition of value. There's success to be found for front offices that are willing and able to remove emotional judgements from their roster decisions and act with financial responsibility.
Again, payroll flexibility is a commodity. If one isn't willing to think of post-strike/lockout hockey this way, you're really putting yourself behind the learning curve.
Nobody is expecting "Elite" talent in return, but we do expect a good sized return considering his immediate value to a Cup contender.
Payroll flexibility is a commodity. It's not just "nice to have," rather it is something of value that teams can use. In a cap world, it's a HUGE asset.
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To sum up what I just said, the Blues aren't not going to trade Pronger as a salary dump. Right now the asking price(from Philly) is: Pitkanen, Carter, Radiovojevic and a 3rd. If that is too steep a price for you we're perfectly fine with keeping Pronger.
I got you, but I don't work for the Flyers. Say "hi" to Pleau for me.
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As others have said, none of this matters because Pronger will be a UFA unless the contracts carry over(regardless of whether the age is lowered).
Yeah, that's an important factor, for sure. However, I see this as a discussion over the concept of the benefits and pitfalls of having an expensive player in his prime.
Payroll flexibility is a commodity. It's not just "nice to have," rather it is something of value that teams can use. In a cap world, it's a HUGE asset.
So is a big, in his prime, top 3 defender in the league who is capable of league MVP play.
That said, I'm not so sure that Philly could afford Pronger (unless they buy out some players)
I know, Matty, and I wrote as much, but it's an asset that is profusely accepted as the ONLY value of a hockey player in many of these discussions.
True. And I highly doubt Pleau would even bother asking for Pitkanen & Carter & Branko & a 3rd...nobody likes being laughed at
But I would think that Pronger could still bring in a fair amount in return (depending on the whole UFA thing). I do doubt though that Philly would be in the running.
But I would think that Pronger could still bring in a fair amount in return (depending on the whole UFA thing). I do doubt though that Philly would be in the running.
Yup, they have their own money issues to concern themselves with, particularly depending on how much of the LeClair and Amonte contracts will cost against the cap (if I remember correctly, Amonte is off the books).
