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Sens Goaltending

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Old
05-06-2005, 02:03 PM
  #26
John Flyers Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PapaBear
Man how come people keep thinking Hasek isnt capable of being the go to guy for the sens. This guy may be old, but him even at 50% is better than half of the goalies today.

He could, but it's far from a given.

2 of the past 3 seasons he hasn't played. During the other season he didn't play particularly well, was frequently injured, and was a dressing room disaster.

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Old
05-06-2005, 02:14 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
That's a pretty wishy washy answer. You could say that about 50% of the league since many of them didn't play last season. I agree that Hasek has gone an even longer stretch to a degree, but there are many players who could be in the same boat, not just Hasek.
Is 50% of the league comprised of 40 year old reflex goalies with tricky groins?

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Old
05-06-2005, 02:22 PM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by norrisnick
Is 50% of the league comprised of 40 year old reflex goalies with tricky groins?

No, but since you are the expert of Hasek's groin, I'll take your word as gospel. Do people think Belfour, with his ailing back and 40 year old body will falter?? Not really. I suspect that since he has played more the last few seasons, he deserve more credit there. But many players didn't play. Too early to say that they will all universally react the same regardless of age, injury or whatever else. I think Hasek deserves the same consideration.

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Old
05-06-2005, 02:29 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Craven Morehead
No, but since you are the expert of Hasek's groin, I'll take your word as gospel. Do people think Belfour, with his ailing back and 40 year old body will falter?? Not really. I suspect that since he has played more the last few seasons, he deserve more credit there. But many players didn't play. Too early to say that they will all universally react the same regardless of age, injury or whatever else. I think Hasek deserves the same consideration.
I don't believe Belfour will last next season either, though he has shown considerably more durability than Hasek has considering he has played nearly two full seasons in the past three years. Hasek? 14 games.

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Old
05-06-2005, 03:14 PM
  #30
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Im not sure what's going on here? are you guys suggesting its overpayment by SJ or Ottawa?

Nabokov and Thornton is not overpaying for Havlat, and i don't necessarily think that Havlat is overpaying for Nabokov and Thornton.
Nabokov is a very good goalie but im not sure he's a great goalie....i guess i need to see him more.

it sure hardly seems "ridiculous" in terms of value from either side. Neither team may want to make this trade but that doesn't mean the value isn't there.

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Old
05-06-2005, 03:21 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
Im not sure what's going on here? are you guys suggesting its overpayment by SJ or Ottawa?

Nabokov and Thornton is not overpaying for Havlat, and i don't necessarily think that Havlat is overpaying for Nabokov and Thornton.
Nabokov is a very good goalie but im not sure he's a great goalie....i guess i need to see him more.

it sure hardly seems "ridiculous" in terms of value from either side. Neither team may want to make this trade but that doesn't mean the value isn't there.
Nabokov _IS_ a great goalie.

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Old
05-06-2005, 03:30 PM
  #32
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After Hasek retires for good, I think the Sens should just play in Prusek and let him develope into the team's no. 1 goalie.

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Old
05-06-2005, 05:51 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffey77
Overpayment and I don't see why San Jose should do that trade. I like Havlat but it's not like the Sharks really need a guy like that.

San Jose is a contender now but trading Nabokov would take them away from that. Toskala may be a good goalie but he hasn't proven anything yet. Nabokov has proven he's a number one goalie. San Jose is so close, why would they move him?
You know you are overpaying when most of the Ottawa fans are ready to do the deal. Opps. I guess I didn't know Nabokov was so highly regarded by other fans. Usually Shark's players are undervalued because they are lesser known.

Out of curiosity, do most of you think Nabokov straight up for Havlat is overpaying?

I agree Toskala hasn't proven 100% he can be our number one, especially since he has no playoff experience, but when Nabokov went down last year with an injury, Toskala played very well during that stretch and gave no indication he couldn't handle it. Trading Nabokov would defintely be a risk, but sometimes you have to take risks to win. Ideally, we would wait one more year and give Toskala a bigger load during the season.

I disagree the Shark's don't need a player like Havlat. A young, fast skating, PPG first line winger, who is defensively responsible? All those sound like Shark's player qualities, except for the PPG part. We don't have one of those. Last year when Sturm broke his leg before the playoffs, the team took a big hit. Curtis Brown didn't do diddly squat for us, which is one of the reasons he wasn't resigned. During the off season we lost Damphousse who was clutch last year and we lost Ricci. Michalek will hopefully be back at 100%, but what is the backup plan if someone gets hurt again?

Sturm - Marleau - Havlat <--- has a nice ring to it
Korolyuk - McCauley - Ekman
Michalek - Goc - Cheechoo
Thornton - Primeau - Clowe

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Old
05-06-2005, 06:12 PM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
Out of curiosity, do most of you think Nabokov straight up for Havlat is overpaying?
Not really. I think it's become quite clear we Sens fans really like Nabakov. But the guy is only a very good #1 goalie IMO, not a great #1 goalie. Since Nabakov has already (somewhat) advanced in age he doesn't quite warrant a young winger who is a PPG player and may very well one day lead the league in scoring if he has a good center beside him (such a Marleau for example) in Havlat. I'd like a roster player and/or a pick coming with Nabakov for Havlat. The proposed deal of Nabakov and Thornton for Havlat I'd definatly do. Korolyuk or Ekman could replace Thornton, no problems here, but I have a feeling you'd rather trade Thonton. Or an average range pick instead of a roster player I'd bite on........

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Old
05-06-2005, 06:46 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
You know you are overpaying when most of the Ottawa fans are ready to do the deal. Opps. I guess I didn't know Nabokov was so highly regarded by other fans. Usually Shark's players are undervalued because they are lesser known.

Out of curiosity, do most of you think Nabokov straight up for Havlat is overpaying?

I agree Toskala hasn't proven 100% he can be our number one, especially since he has no playoff experience, but when Nabokov went down last year with an injury, Toskala played very well during that stretch and gave no indication he couldn't handle it. Trading Nabokov would defintely be a risk, but sometimes you have to take risks to win. Ideally, we would wait one more year and give Toskala a bigger load during the season.

I disagree the Shark's don't need a player like Havlat. A young, fast skating, PPG first line winger, who is defensively responsible? All those sound like Shark's player qualities, except for the PPG part. We don't have one of those. Last year when Sturm broke his leg before the playoffs, the team took a big hit. Curtis Brown didn't do diddly squat for us, which is one of the reasons he wasn't resigned. During the off season we lost Damphousse who was clutch last year and we lost Ricci. Michalek will hopefully be back at 100%, but what is the backup plan if someone gets hurt again?

Sturm - Marleau - Havlat <--- has a nice ring to it
Korolyuk - McCauley - Ekman
Michalek - Goc - Cheechoo
Thornton - Primeau - Clowe
I think Nabokov is a great goalie. Not on a Brodeur level but he's an excellent goalie. I haven't seen toskala play a lot and I hear he's good too but he hasn't proven he can handle the number one goalie duties.

I don't mind a team taking risks to win it all but I don't see how that deal helps. Nabokov for Havlat isn't gross overpayment but you're possibly creating a hole. And it's not even like you're filling one in. Havlat would obviously help out San Jose but not at the expense of losing Nabokov.

If San Jose really wanted to make a push for a cup, why not move a prospect (who's not NHL ready yet) for that forward? The Sharks are a young team and afford to move a youngster or 2 for that forward. Deal from a position of strength.

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Old
05-06-2005, 08:12 PM
  #36
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Im with Man U.

Id be very nervous from an Ottawa POV, we only get one shot of putting a big package together to trade for an elite goalie....there is nothing more worthless than a goalie that doesn't pan out for you. You cant keep him, nobody will give you anything for him even though his true value may be pretty good, and you've given away an extremely valuable trading commodity.

That's why id want to BE ABSOLUTELY 100% sure that Nabokov is one of the top 5 or 6 goalies.
I don't expect Brodeur or Luongo, but i would expect him to be right near the top of that next group.
Theodore, Kiprusoff (if you can base this on 1 year)...geez there's not a lot of super goalies. There are lots of very good guys like Denis, Turco, Raycroft, Depietro, Giguere etc. I've always though of Nabokov more of that 3rd group (which is hardly shabby but...)

Id rather overpay with Havlat and another valuable commodity or 2 (picks, prospects) and land one of the very best goalies.
Im can't take anymore inconsistent goaltending, its going to kill me early.

You guys think Nabokov is in the top 5?

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Old
05-06-2005, 08:34 PM
  #37
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Agreed. If Nabokov is something of a risk (in that they make a big trade to land him) then Ottawa is safer to see how Hasek does.

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Old
05-06-2005, 08:54 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HipCzech
What if Nabokov was available?

Nabokov + Scott Thorton for Havlat?

Seems to fill both needs in Ottawa. A consistent playoff proven goaltender and a big gritty LW.
Add Prusek to San Jose's side and that's a fair deal.

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:00 PM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coffey77
Overpayment and I don't see why San Jose should do that trade. I like Havlat but it's not like the Sharks really need a guy like that.

San Jose is a contender now but trading Nabokov would take them away from that. Toskala may be a good goalie but he hasn't proven anything yet. Nabokov has proven he's a number one goalie. San Jose is so close, why would they move him?
But Havlat is exactly what the sharks need. An explosive offensive force is really all they lack other then that they are complete. This is assuming that Toskala can handle the number one.

I would do the trade from a Sens POV. Assuming Hasek is done.

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:10 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bert
But Havlat is exactly what the sharks need. An explosive offensive force is really all they lack other then that they are complete. This is assuming that Toskala can handle the number one.

I would do the trade from a Sens POV. Assuming Hasek is done.
As much as the Sens have fearing that Nabokov isn't the goaltender to put them over the top, the Sharks should be just as fearful with Havlat (Teemu Selanne, anyone) fitting in their system. Of course, Prusek would need to be added because the Sharks would be patching one hole only to create a new one. However, I would like to see this deal (being a Sharks and Sens fan) as I think it could put both teams over the top (as good as Nabby is I like Toskala better). Its fun to watch teams roll the dice with trades like this to get them the Cup and, if this deal were to happen, I think it could end up a win-win (ie Nieuy-Iginla type) deal. I'd be in heaven watching a Stanley Cup Finals of the SJ vs Ottawa.

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Old
05-07-2005, 10:51 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot

You guys think Nabokov is in the top 5?
No way. But I'd still give Havlat up for Nabakov + _____. But he's definatly top 10 IMO. And he's clutch. He was amazing for San Jose in last season playoffs. It seems that many people outside of San Jose don't know that. I dunno what is with this guy and exposure. It seems as if he won that Calder Trophy and then fell off the map out East because he wasn't winning any more awards. But he was still playing at a very good level. He can give up a bad goal however because at times he reacts to early and shows the shooter his cards. His great reflexes often bail him out. I think he's like a Marek Schwarz, since this is a prospect forum, only with all those big gaps pretty much iorned out of his game.

As said above, I probably would pull the trigger, but not before I explored other options. If we could get a guy via FA that'd be ideal, assuming he's of a decent calibre, and if we're offering up a guy like Havlat a better deal may be out there.

And then we can always wait on Emery, hoping he pans out, and potentially make a big gain by giving up nothing......

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Old
05-07-2005, 12:36 PM
  #42
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If Hasek retires, and you can't sign Khabibulin, keep Prusek and Emery for the regular season, and see if a good goalie becomes available via trade at the trade deadline. Nabokov won't become available, but a guy like Giguere could if Anaheim is out of the playoffs (Murray is a big fan, obviously), or last year's big name guy, Olaf Kolzig out of Washington. Both those guys have been SC runners-up on sub-par teams, and Giggy has a Conn Smythe while Kolzig has a Vezina to his credit.

It's the Colorado Avalanche approach with Aebischer/Sauve last year... Aebi proved he deserved the shot by the trade deadline to be the Avs' playoff goalie... Prusek could possibly do the same, or young Emery. It wasn't Aebi that prevented the Avs from making it past the 2nd round, so it actually did work out for the Avalanche.

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Old
05-07-2005, 12:49 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wondercarrot
You guys think Nabokov is in the top 5?
Without a doubt.

1) Martin Brodeur
2) Nikolai Khabibulin
3) Roberto Luongo
4) Evgeni Nabokov
5) Jose Theodore/Marty Turco

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Old
05-07-2005, 01:20 PM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyIsALegend
Without a doubt.

1) Martin Brodeur
2) Nikolai Khabibulin
3) Roberto Luongo
4) Evgeni Nabokov
5) Jose Theodore/Marty Turco
I guess it's all subjective. But the following 5 goalies are better than Nabakov IMO. Nabakov just misses that top group in my books, but he's still a very good goalie.

Brodeur
Luongo


Khabibulin
Theodore
Kipper (if he's for real)
Belfour

I also think there's a pretty big drop off after the first two. Most of the great goalies are in the East, continually putting Ottawa at a disadvantage come playoff time.

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Old
05-07-2005, 02:09 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man.Utd
I guess it's all subjective. But the following 5 goalies are better than Nabakov IMO. Nabakov just misses that top group in my books, but he's still a very good goalie.

Brodeur
Luongo


Khabibulin
Theodore
Kipper (if he's for real)
Belfour

I also think there's a pretty big drop off after the first two. Most of the great goalies are in the East, continually putting Ottawa at a disadvantage come playoff time.
One really strong season doesn't vault Kiprusoff into the category of top-five in the league. Wait until he sews together a pattern before making that assertion.

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Old
05-07-2005, 02:28 PM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BG
One really strong season doesn't vault Kiprusoff into the category of top-five in the league. Wait until he sews together a pattern before making that assertion.
Not what's in the brackets, my friend. I don't know if he can continue to play at this level, but if he can for a few more seasons I think deserves to be in that group.

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Old
05-07-2005, 02:32 PM
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Man.Utd
Not what's in the brackets, my friend. I don't know if he can continue to play at this level, but if he can for a few more seasons I think deserves to be in that group.
I just took offense to the 'following five goalies are better than Nabokov' comment, only to include Kipprosuff in that list. Just didn't add up to me; to each his own, I suppose.

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Old
05-07-2005, 02:48 PM
  #48
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Ottawa is in a situation where they need to give up something VERY GOOD in order to put themselves in the spot to win the cup. IMO, trading Havlat is the best (but hardest way) in order to give Ottawa the best chance to win the cup. If they can grab a goalie like Nabby for Havlat they shoudl do it. IMO, Ottawa is in a simialr situation as the Flames were in right when they dealt Brett Hull. They have a lethal, young RW but ended up trading him for thr right peices to win the cup.

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Old
05-07-2005, 03:29 PM
  #49
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theodore+souray+bulis

vs

emery+havlat+redden



havlat-koivu-zednick
ryder-ribeiro-perezhogin
higgins-bonk- sundstrom
begin-plekaneck-ward



redden-ufa
markov-komo
hainsey-rivet
bouillon

huet
emery
danis

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Old
05-07-2005, 03:35 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gars59
theodore+souray+bulis

vs

emery+havlat+redden



havlat-koivu-zednick
ryder-ribeiro-perezhogin
higgins-bonk- sundstrom
begin-plekaneck-ward



redden-ufa
markov-komo
hainsey-rivet
bouillon

huet
emery
danis
Havlat value = Theo
Souray <<<<<<<<< Redden
Bulis > Emery

Ottawa doesn't do this deal. If anything, the deal (Ottawa wanting a goalie bad) would be Havlat plus Emery for Theo and a pick.

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