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It's Re-Tooling Time

View Poll Results: Well?
Go full rebuild, trading away practically everyone and starting fresh 51 16.89%
Retool, trading away some core players and some management changes 223 73.84%
Stand pat and hope for the best 13 4.30%
Cut off any dead weight and go all in for next year or the following year by selling off futures 15 4.97%
Voters: 302. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
05-06-2013, 08:29 AM
  #226
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
0 points. We need players that can score. I know he's still young but I think his ceiling is very limited.
The team has scored 5 goals in 3 games. Accusing him of having 0 points from the 4th line is like blaming Luongo for having .902 Sv% prior to coming in in relief yesterday. Would you say that .902Sv% was an accurate reflection of his play in those two games?

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Originally Posted by Grumbler View Post
Hey can't score, can't make plays, can't pass and can't really hold onto the puck... All he does is hit well and fight. He is a good fourth liner maybe, but he should not be anymore than that unless he raises his game.
You're watching very different games. Sedins have had their best shifts the few times he has gotten to play with them. Kassian has been making plays and creating chances all playoffs long. He has stepped it up big time since the regular season. Not to mention that he has been a huge physical presence in each game.

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05-06-2013, 08:37 AM
  #227
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Well assuming there's no comeback in the works...

Like someone else said coaches tend to have an expiry date, and this is the first time I've agreed on here but while AV has been a good coach it's time for him to go... problem is who else is available right now? That could grant AV a bit of a lifeline if there's no worthy candidates to replace them.

As for the team? It's long overdue but Gillis really needs to start shifting assets towards the forwards. We have plenty of good complimentary guys, but for the longest time our lineups been thin on pure offensive talent. We basically have the Sedins and Kesler. San Jose in comparison has Thornton, Marleau, Pavelski, Couture, and Havlat. We need more of that, and should focus on trading a goalie and a dman towards it. Roy may be worthwhile keeping around depending on the cost, it was a great rental move by Gillis to get him but seems like a failure on AV's part to establish his spot in the lineup in time for the playoffs (example: that great start with Higgins, then Kesler came back and the lines get shuffled). Some of the kids may help here as well if any of Kassian, Jensen, or Schroeder could take the next step.

That's how I feel they should go at least. And now it seems like probably a good time to ditch the Canucks board for the summer as I can't stand the whining emo fest that is about to commence. I mean seriously, look at the team that's smoking us right now. The team we smoked 2 years ago in the semi finals and have been falling short much longer than we have. Think they'd be in a better position if they blew everything up and started a major rebuild? This is the playoff's, **** happens. Firing your GM and starting a rebuild when you're consistently in the top half of the bracket is amateur hour.

Yeah Philly did that major shakeup, but a) unlike us they did have a Claude Giroux waiting to take over and b) you may notice that the guys they ditched went on to win the Stanley Cup that year while they bowed out in the second round and missed the show altogether this year. But hey at least they made some neat trades along the way!
Jesus Christ... If I hear another "But who else is available?" I'm gonna cry We've been saying this same crap every year... THERE ARE ALWAYS coaches. Look at what Ottawa got, we need to fire Vigneault. No more of Gillis' arrogant "need to analyze BS" FIRE HIM right away when we exit the playoffs.

I'm also crossing my fingers that Aquilini will fire that arrogant GM of ours. He has done absolutely nothing after pour game 7 loss... heck the team is still NONIS. What he did was give Luongo one of the worst contracts ever...

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05-06-2013, 08:39 AM
  #228
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
0 points. We need players that can score. I know he's still young but I think his ceiling is very limited.
Won't disagree that this team needs more scoring. Has been a need for longer then just this season. Kassian, regardless of what his ceiling may or may not be, is still the type of player every team needs. I think Kassian hasn't been given a chance by AV and I want to see how he does when given more consistent ice time. Even if he turns out to be just a 3rd line player he still has an element this team will need. He is young, huge, and has a nastiness about him that will only become nastier as he matures and learns just how much of a physical advantage he can have over most men. Once he matures into a man I think he'll be quite the asset. He is still finding his way in the NHL.

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05-06-2013, 08:47 AM
  #229
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Won't disagree that this team needs more scoring. Has been a need for longer then just this season. Kassian, regardless of what his ceiling may or may not be, is still the type of player every team needs. I think Kassian hasn't been given a chance by AV and I want to see how he does when given more consistent ice time. Even if he turns out to be just a 3rd line player he still has an element this team will need. He is young, huge, and has a nastiness about him that will only become nastier as he matures and learns just how much of a physical advantage he can have over most men. Once he matures into a man I think he'll be quite the asset. He is still finding his way in the NHL.
I honestly haven't seem that nastiness. I think someone like Torres has been much more effective in that department.

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Old
05-06-2013, 08:55 AM
  #230
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I honestly haven't seem that nastiness. I think someone like Torres has been much more effective in that department.
I have have seen it. When he fought Eager I thought he was a mean piece of business in that game. Kassian has the ability to bring that game if he chooses. He just has to bring it every game because that is when he's most effective. Remember that he is still just 22. He still has a ways to go before he matures. He may not end up being a point guy but I think he will be much better then Torres. I remember back when Torres was younger he was nothing like the player he is now. I think Torres has matured into a valuable asset to a team. That wasn't always the case in his career. Give Kassian some more time. He has all the makings to be a very valuable asset. He just needs a coach who will play him and allow him to mature.

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05-06-2013, 09:04 AM
  #231
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gillis needs to put his mother effen stamp on this team in a big way. entire coaching staff, gone.

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05-06-2013, 09:20 AM
  #232
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This team's philosophy has to change. This buddy buddy system, give nice juicy contracts to the players you like and turf those you or some pundit or certain players don't like, has to go.

This league is very competitive, there are 30 teams that want to win (even CBJ) so unless you want to end up dead last, the only personnel philosophy that works is "it doesn't matter the colour of the cat as long as it catches mice".

If the Aquilini family is unhappy with unsold seats, its going to get worse when we don't make the playoffs and even worse when we become bottom feeders.

There are so many examples its hard to know where to start. Here's a couple:

Torres - has a great 2011 playoff bringing much needed toughness that can play to an otherwise soft team and we don't re-sign him because quoting the Fairwidow, he's a "pig" ?

Salo - is a long term warrior for this team, takes a lot less to play here, carries Edler defensively all these years, scores timely goals in the playoffs and we don't offer him a contract? Result: we pay Garrison the big bucks to play a position he's not familiar with, Edler melts down in the playoffs and we burn a year off Corrado's contract. Nice.

How these players have been treated bodes well for signing UFA's don't you think (although I think Torres would come back)?

Edit: on positive side we give $10MM to Chris Higgins who is a playoff no show..

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05-06-2013, 09:28 AM
  #233
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I have have seen it. When he fought Eager I thought he was a mean piece of business in that game. Kassian has the ability to bring that game if he chooses. He just has to bring it every game because that is when he's most effective. Remember that he is still just 22. He still has a ways to go before he matures. He may not end up being a point guy but I think he will be much better then Torres. I remember back when Torres was younger he was nothing like the player he is now. I think Torres has matured into a valuable asset to a team. That wasn't always the case in his career. Give Kassian some more time. He has all the makings to be a very valuable asset. He just needs a coach who will play him and allow him to mature.
He may have potential but right now, Kassian should be a black ace (having spent most of the year in the AHL) in the press box. He's a project, period. All this talk about how great he is and its AV's fault for his poor development is pandering, bordering on delusion.

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05-06-2013, 09:32 AM
  #234
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He may have potential but right now, Kassian should be a black ace (having spent most of the year in the AHL) in the press box. He's a project, period. All this talk about how great he is and its AV's fault for his poor development is pandering, bordering on delusion.
That is your opinion and certainly not fact.

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05-06-2013, 09:34 AM
  #235
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My choice isn't in the poll:
Give a new coach a chance with this roster.

It's still a damn good roster.

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05-06-2013, 09:34 AM
  #236
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He may have potential but right now, Kassian should be a black ace (having spent most of the year in the AHL) in the press box. He's a project, period. All this talk about how great he is and its AV's fault for his poor development is pandering, bordering on delusion.
He's having a very good playoffs. I don't really know why he should be a black ace.

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05-06-2013, 09:39 AM
  #237
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Originally Posted by PRNuck View Post
My choice isn't in the poll:
Give a new coach a chance with this roster.

It's still a damn good roster.
No it's not. It wasnt the coach on the ice coasting like this was yet another throw away regular season game. Yes coaching was bad, but the players were bad too. Or do we need a fourth straight terrible offensive showing?

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05-06-2013, 09:41 AM
  #238
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Unlike what some other people want, I wouldn't be trading away core players just yet.
This team is capable of being a cup contender, we clearly aren't playing to our full potential right now.

This off-season I would replace the coaching staff, trade one of our goalies, get rid of Booth and Ballard, and let Raymond walk without thinking twice.

A new coaching staff would bring in a much needed breath of fresh air into the locker room.
Hopefully we bring someone in who isn't afraid to make adjustments in-game, and knows when a lineup isn't working (cough cough Edler-Bieksa pairing).

If after next season we still suffer the same problems, then we can consider not re-signing the Sedins (if they continue to not produce in the post-season), trading away some core players, and possibly going through a major re-tooling.

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05-06-2013, 09:42 AM
  #239
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
No it's not. It wasnt the coach on the ice coasting like this was yet another throw away regular season game. Yes coaching was bad, but the players were bad too. Or do we need a fourth straight terrible offensive showing?
The offensive showing could just as well be blamed on the coach. In fact, given that the players outhit Sharks in all 3 games and have been a plus possession team in all three games, it indicates to me the gameplan is wrong not their commitment or compete level.

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05-06-2013, 09:43 AM
  #240
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I voted re-build.


Who I want gone:

Sedins (For 2 years now)
Bieksa
Luongo


Who Im williing to trade if the return is good enough:

Edler
Burrows

Who we should build around:

Kesler
Kassian
Garrison
Hamhuis
Tanev
Corrado
Schneider
Jensen
Schroeder
Hansen
Gaunce
+ other young players/picks acquired in trade

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05-06-2013, 09:45 AM
  #241
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There's a way the team should go and a way it likely will go.

The way it should go: Major re-tool/re-build

1. Sedins aren't going anywhere; be realistic
2. Kesler should stay since he actually shows fight, but he's also injury prone lately and depending on the return, could be a viable candidate for a trade.
3. One or both of Bieksa and Edler should be traded. Edler would garner a greater return but Bieksa is a bigger liability. However, he has a NTC.
4. Purge all the fringe crap. Raymond, Sestito, Pinnizotto, etc. should be gone.
5. Trade Luongo. I'd say trade Schneider as he will garner a much better return but I think that bridge has sailed.
6. Fire AV and hire Eakins or the Bond Villain Boucher

The way it will go: Minor re-tool

1. AV will likely be fired and someone like Arneil brought in.
2. We will go after some bum in FA and add to the NTC disaster.

I don't have faith anymore in Gillis to do some major work. Hopefully I get surprised.

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05-06-2013, 09:46 AM
  #242
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This team was one goal away from being bounced in the first round three years in a row. This is not a good team and this core is broken. I'm really amazed that people want to keep this same garbage team. This is exactly how you become the Calgary Flames.

Look, I said our offense was terrible and that would be our undoing, and I was right. I've also said that if this team continues the same path we will become the new Flames. That's something I really don't want to have happen because rather than one year of suffering it'll be at least a decade of suffering. We simply need to move on from this core. They couldn't get it done, they play with no emotion, we have a delusional captain who thinks they played well last night, we need to move on.

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05-06-2013, 09:48 AM
  #243
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
Look, I said our offense was terrible and that would be our undoing, and I was right. I've also said that if this team continues the same path we will become the new Flames. That's something I really don't want to have happen because rather than one year of suffering it'll be at least a decade of suffering. We simply need to move on from this core. They couldn't get it done, they play with no emotion, we have a delusional captain who thinks they played well last night, we need to move on.
They did play well. Schneider blew it for them and AVs gameplan sucks. But within the parameters given, they've played well in all 3 games. This whole thing about them not having heart or working hard or whatever else people spout off about is complete ********.

Thats why a new coach is needed.

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05-06-2013, 09:50 AM
  #244
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They did play well. Schneider blew it for them and AVs gameplan sucks. But within the parameters given, they've played well in all 3 games. This whole thing about them not having heart or working hard or whatever else people spout off about is complete ********.

Thats why a new coach is needed.
So averaging 1.67 goals for per game is playing well now? I know offense has been bad in the playoffs for us and this is slight improvement from what we're used to, but c'mon. We did not play well.

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05-06-2013, 09:53 AM
  #245
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So averaging 1.67 goals for per game is playing well now? I know offense has been bad in the playoffs for us and this is slight improvement from what we're used to, but c'mon. We did not play well.
They're playing well within the parameters that AV has set up for them. They've out hit the Sharks and dominated possession. They've done this while also facing an uphill battle against the refs.

The problem is that AV's gameplan is just completely broken and picked apart by other teams at this point. He has made adjustments for the worse over the years. You seem to have no problem looking beyond the stats for Luongo but yet you seem to refuse to do it for anyone else on the team.

The upside with a team like this, that will work hard to execute the exact gameplan given, is that given the right coach they WILL be successful and play as expected of them.

(PP is a good example —*they've been making crisp passes, maintaining good zone time and shooting often but their current setup generates zero openings or one-timer opportunities.)

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05-06-2013, 09:57 AM
  #246
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
They're playing well within the parameters that AV has set up for them. They've out hit the Sharks and dominated possession. They've done this while also facing an uphill battle against the refs.

The problem is that AV's gameplan is just completely broken and picked apart by other teams at this point. He has made adjustments for the worse over the years. You seem to have no problem looking beyond the stats for Luongo but yet you seem to refuse to do it for anyone else on the team.
So AV's game plan is for the Sedins to not shoot the puck? AV's game plan is for the team to take low percentage shots from the perimeter? AV's game plan is for the team to skate without much intensity into the offensive zone?

I'm not buying it. AV isn't the one on the ice not finishing. Our players can't finish their chances. Our players are playing uninspired hockey. Game plan or officiating or not, the players needed to be better. This team is past it's best before date and I don't see this team being anywhere close to a cup contender. The talent just isn't there.

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05-06-2013, 09:58 AM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Reds81 View Post
There's a way the team should go and a way it likely will go.

The way it should go: Major re-tool/re-build

1. Sedins aren't going anywhere; be realistic
2. Kesler should stay since he actually shows fight, but he's also injury prone lately and depending on the return, could be a viable candidate for a trade.
3. One or both of Bieksa and Edler should be traded. Edler would garner a greater return but Bieksa is a bigger liability. However, he has a NTC.
4. Purge all the fringe crap. Raymond, Sestito, Pinnizotto, etc. should be gone.
5. Trade Luongo. I'd say trade Schneider as he will garner a much better return but I think that bridge has sailed.
6. Fire AV and hire Eakins or the Bond Villain Boucher

The way it will go: Minor re-tool

1. AV will likely be fired and someone like Arneil brought in.
2. We will go after some bum in FA and add to the NTC disaster.

I don't have faith anymore in Gillis to do some major work. Hopefully I get surprised.
I don't want Arniel anywhere near our farm club anymore let alone near the Nucks. So help me god if Gillis is that stupid.

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05-06-2013, 10:00 AM
  #248
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Originally Posted by y2kcanucks View Post
So AV's game plan is for the Sedins to not shoot the puck? AV's game plan is for the team to take low percentage shots from the perimeter? AV's game plan is for the team to skate without much intensity into the offensive zone?
AVs gameplan is what makes it impossible for them to get into scoring areas. His insistance on the long tip pass is what prevents half of our team from being successful because they literally have zero transition game now. You can't have odd-man rushes if you're always waiting for the long tip in option.

Since our Cup run he has also done his best to not allow any cycling above the dots. He has also minimized opportunities for passes into slot from behind the net because they result in turnovers.

He's a prime example of an incredibly risk averse coach and this has been costing the team over the past two years. That is why you're seeing such low goal scoring numbers.

Honestly, just look at Roy's first 3 games and then look at him since. Before AV got his reigns on him, Roy utilized the full offensive zone which at times resulted in turnovers but also created a ton of chances. Since then he has stuck below the dots and has been completely nullified by his own coach.

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05-06-2013, 10:03 AM
  #249
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From an outsiders point of view, I see the Sedins and Kesler as the guys who are the only ones producing in the playoffs. I can't see how you'd move these guys, and expect quality back to keep the team competing. I can't see a complete blowup rebuild being in the cards, as I can't imagine that ownership would see being a bottom feeder for several years in order to rebuild.

Besides, what exactly can you expect to get from the Sedins, that will help the team now? They have one year left on their contract, before they become UFA's. Of course they could be extended this offseason, negating that negative. I think their cap hit is reasonable for their production, but we are talking about guys who will be into their mid thirties, with production declining soon. The other problem being, who exactly can take on 12 million in cap hit? Personally I think you'd be better building around them.

The problem is the depth guys haven't produced, not enough grit, not enough fight/will to win once the playoffs come. Great regular season team, but need some adjustments, but not major ones. The Luongo trade was blown, as it was probable that some useful 2nd/3rd line guys could have been had in the prior offseason, but that seems unlikely now.

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05-06-2013, 10:04 AM
  #250
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I'm not sold on shipping out the Sedins unless the Canucks do the scorched earth thing. I think they've been fine in the last two playoff runs, but they'd be more noticeable if they simply decided to shoot more instead of hang into the puck when there simply isn't as much room to make the magical plays. It's an adjustment I'm sure they can make.

We absolutely need to ship out the following, though:

-Ballard: Cap considerations
-Bieksa: Garbage outside of 2011. A bag of pucks for him, plz
-Luongo: We just have to due to age constraints. Unless Cannata shows signs of being the second coming of Hasek, then ship Schneider.
-Raymond: Not a playoff player. Period. Doesn't use his speed to his advantage, can't ever get into a good scoring position with playoff reffing. Useless. Letting him walk for nothing is no big deal.
-AV: Time has been up since last season. Major mistake on GMMG's part to give him an extension.

If Gillis is unwilling to make any significant moves, then he's got to go. The Canucks are in this hole partially because plugs like Sestito and Ebbett were made fixtures and he had plenty of time to secure extra depth.

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