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NHL.com announces Calder Trophy Finalists

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05-06-2013, 05:31 PM
  #526
MessierII
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Correlation does not equal causation.

Do you have any proof that Saad was carried by his linemates?
Having the cushiest top 5 line mates in the NHL is going to make you look better than you are.

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05-06-2013, 05:39 PM
  #527
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Who isn't going to be better defensively when you top 5 line mates are as follows

1. Toews
2. Hossa
3. Keith
4. Seabrook
5. Hjalmarsson

Compared to

1. Gagner
2. Petry
3. Smid
4. J. Schultz
5. N. Schultz

Saad likely had the cushiest top 5 line mates in the NHL.
Somebody should tell Kane he should be a defensive stalwart right now playing with those guys. And for the people arguing linemates numbers, I had no idea Toews (never a PPG player prior to this season) was an offensive juggernaut and Marian 34 year old, missed good amount of time three out of the last four years, Hossa was a 90+ point player like his Thrasher days. If it was so easy to play with world class linemates, Zach Boychuk would still be a Penguin on Sid's (or Malkin's) line, Andrew Brunette, Viktor Stalberg, Tomas Kopecky, Michael Frolik and whoever else was in the top 6 the last couple years (before the cup team) would be 50+ point players. I mean WTF is Zach Kassian doing? Sedins are world class offensive players and he can't even crack a .30 PPG pace.

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05-06-2013, 05:50 PM
  #528
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Having the cushiest top 5 line mates in the NHL is going to make you look better than you are.
Prove it.

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Old
05-06-2013, 05:58 PM
  #529
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Correlation does not equal causation.

Do you have any proof that Saad was carried by his linemates?
Blackhawks my second favourite team and I believe Saad is a stud.

But this post is horribad.

Playing with elite players doesnt lead to scoring more points? lol it does completely, put anyone with Crosby and they will increase their production by alot

Playing with selke caliber Toews and Hossa makes it much easier on you defensively to. Which is why the corsi stat is pretty irrelevent. Ofcourse their will be less scoring chances against when playing with those two. Gagner is not a defensive center and Hemsky is not a two way winger. More choas in their own end. Hossa/Toews are way more responisble, less is needed for Saad as Toews can handle most of it

What stat do you want to see? I know your trying to call out people to provide evidence, but be specific on what stat you want. Stop saying "prove it" like their is an objective stat that needs to be provided. If you disagree than better line mates makes you better than that is your own ignorance, not other peoples problem to find stats. But if you want stats do you want the stat that he plays with elite players? provided above. The stat that shows Yakupov got more points? NHL.com

The correlation of playing with elite line mates 101% leads to the causation of getting pumped up stats and relaxed defensive responsibilities.

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05-06-2013, 06:00 PM
  #530
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Prove it.
Prove that Yakupov wasn't dragged down by his.



Useless. All we have to go off is the facts and fact is Saad had the cushiest top 5 line mates of any player in the NHL not just rookies.

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05-06-2013, 06:00 PM
  #531
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Prove it.
Yakupov was best rookie and prove it he was not. Pathetic argument on your part. there are arguments for and against all part of perception.Another example Kunitz would of scored more points on another team with out Crosby prove me wrong.

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05-06-2013, 06:06 PM
  #532
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So, have oiler fans tracked down all the hockey writers yet and burn down their houses?

Yakupov will likely be better than these 3 over the long term. But he wasnt this year. It took him a little time to acclimatize and came on strong at the end. Maybe next year there will better support. But, this year is done. Just cheer on Gallagher...he's from Edmonton, it's at least something.

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05-06-2013, 06:10 PM
  #533
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
So, have oiler fans tracked down all the hockey writers yet and burn down their houses?

Yakupov will likely be better than these 3 over the long term. But he wasnt this year. It took him a little time to acclimatize and came on strong at the end. Maybe next year there will better support. But, this year is done. Just cheer on Gallagher...he's from Edmonton, it's at least something.
I hope Gallagher wins it, such a fun player to watch. OA Brodin was the best rookie, but of the guys nominated Gallagher deserves it. As for the Calder trophy, I dont get to hung up on it. Hall wasnt nominated either and he has seperated himself from all the guys nominated ever since. It lights a fire and Yakupov is the type of guy who will use this positively

RNH was a bit closer and he should have got it, but because of the shoulder injury and Landys overall game I can see the reason.

Calder trophy is a ok trophy to have on the shelf but winners arent always gaurnteed to be studs, Id rather have a player win the real awards and play better in years 2-15

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05-06-2013, 06:10 PM
  #534
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Saad does not deserve to be a finalist. Brodin and Yakupov over Saad. He's 5th, at best...

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05-06-2013, 06:15 PM
  #535
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Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post

Playing with selke caliber Toews and Hossa makes it much easier on you defensively to. Which is why the corsi stat is pretty irrelevent. Ofcourse their will be less scoring chances against when playing with those two. Gagner is not a defensive center and Hemsky is not a two way winger. More choas in their own end. Hossa/Toews are way more responisble, less is needed for Saad as Toews can handle most of it
Premise: Saad played with Toews and Hossa.
Premise:Each of them posted excellent GA/60 numbers while playing high quality competition.
Conclusion: Saad's defense was a product of playing with those two players.

Invalid. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
What stat do you want to see? I know your trying to call out people to provide evidence, but be specific on what stat you want.
Show me something that proves that Yakupov is better defensively than Saad.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
Stop saying "prove it" like their is an objective stat that needs to be provided.
Really? Saad posted better GA/60 numbers (ridiculously better, really) than Yakupov while facing much higher competition. In fact, Saad faced the 2nd toughest competition on the Hawks.

That's quantifiable, objective evidence that shows me that Saad produced better results in a more difficult situation. If you want to pin that on Toews and Hossa, than show me something to prove it.

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Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
If you disagree than better line mates makes you better than that is your own ignorance, not other peoples problem to find stats.
This has nothing to do with linemates, and I never said as such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by topchowda View Post
The correlation of playing with elite line mates 101% leads to the causation of getting pumped up stats and relaxed defensive responsibilities.
No it doesn't.

PA Paranteau was going to bomb going from Tavares to Colorado. He didn't.

Suter was going to bomb going from Weber to Minny. He didn't.

Ray Whitney went from playing with Eric Staal in an offensive system to tightly controlled defensive system in Phoenix, and posted the best year of his career.

It does not correlate 101% of the time. One counter example can prove that. I just provided three off the top of my head.

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05-06-2013, 06:18 PM
  #536
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Originally Posted by MessierII View Post
Prove that Yakupov wasn't dragged down by his.
The burden of proof is on you to support your claim.

Prove to me that Saad was carried by his linemates. The stats support what Hawks fans are saying.

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05-06-2013, 06:20 PM
  #537
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Originally Posted by Oiltankjob 4 93 64 View Post
Yakupov was best rookie and prove it he was not. Pathetic argument on your part. there are arguments for and against all part of perception.
U mad?

If Yakupov is better defensively than Saad as people claim, then there should be some empirical evidence to back that up. Show it to me and I will promise to shut up.

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05-06-2013, 06:20 PM
  #538
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Hubie, all the way!

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05-06-2013, 06:25 PM
  #539
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LOL at anyone that thinks having Hossa and Toews, two of the best two-way forwards in the league, doesn't make a player look better defensively than he is. No proof is needed, just use your brain

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05-06-2013, 06:25 PM
  #540
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Meh. No issue with Saad or Gallagher ahead of Yakupov. They were important contributers on very good teams this year. If this was the deciding factor than Brodin should have likely been the other finalist. Yakupov > Huberdeau though. But writers made up their mind before the season even ended.

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05-06-2013, 06:26 PM
  #541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
Premise: Saad played with Toews and Hossa.
Premise:Each of them posted excellent GA/60 numbers while playing high quality competition.
Conclusion: Saad's defense was a product of playing with those two players.

Invalid. The conclusion doesn't follow from the premise.



Show me something that proves that Yakupov is better defensively than Saad.



Really? Saad posted better GA/60 numbers (ridiculously better, really) than Yakupov while facing much higher competition. In fact, Saad faced the 2nd toughest competition on the Hawks.

That's quantifiable, objective evidence that shows me that Saad produced better results in a more difficult situation. If you want to pin that on Toews and Hossa, than show me something to prove it.



This has nothing to do with linemates, and I never said as such.



No it doesn't.

PA Paranteau was going to bomb going from Tavares to Colorado. He didn't.

Suter was going to bomb going from Weber to Minny. He didn't.

Ray Whitney went from playing with Eric Staal in an offensive system to tightly controlled defensive system in Phoenix, and posted the best year of his career.

It does not correlate 101% of the time. One counter example can prove that. I just provided three off the top of my head.
So the examples you posted MUST be the rule not the exception right? Are you suggesting Saad was the only player on the ice defending for Chicago? The stats show he was playing a top 5 two way centre in the game, the best two way winger in the game and the best D pairing in the game most of the time. To suggest that isn't a ridiculously cushy situation, both defensively and offensively, for a rookie is flat out asinine.



PS: more people said Weber would fall off without Suter and he did.

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05-06-2013, 06:27 PM
  #542
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So the examples you posted MUST be the rule not the exception right? Are you suggesting Saad was the only player on the ice defending for Chicago? The stats show he was playing a top 5 two way centre in the game, the best two way winger in the game and the best D pairing in the game most of the time. To suggest that isn't a ridiculously cushy situation, both defensively and offensively, for a rookie is flat out asinine.
I'm not saying it wasn't a cushy situation, I'm saying that Saad >>> Yakupov defensively.

You've already killed this strawman, let it be.

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05-06-2013, 06:27 PM
  #543
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
U mad?

If Yakupov is better defensively than Saad as people claim, then there should be some empirical evidence to back that up. Show it to me and I will promise to shut up.
Not mad at all bro could care less if Yakupov won or nominated just happy he is a Oiler , but your counter argument is weak period . How can anyone prove a opinion. Like atheist against a religous person.

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05-06-2013, 06:29 PM
  #544
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LOL at anyone that thinks having Hossa and Toews, two of the best two-way forwards in the league, doesn't make a player look better defensively than he is. No proof is needed, just use your brain
I don't think this at all, I just think that Saad is better than Yakupov defensively.

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05-06-2013, 06:29 PM
  #545
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post



Really? Saad posted better GA/60 numbers (ridiculously better, really) than Yakupov while facing much higher competition. In fact, Saad faced the 2nd toughest competition on the Hawks.

That's quantifiable, objective evidence that shows me that Saad produced better results in a more difficult situation. If you want to pin that on Toews and Hossa, than show me something to prove it.

Are you posting some of these things with slowing doing to think

GA/60 is the amount of goals that get scored against you for every 60 minutes you play.

In a 60 minute time span, Saad plays with Toews and Hossa (also Keith, Seabrook) the same amount Yakupov plays with Gagner and Hemsky, which duo do you think lets in less goals?

Saad is better defensively than Yakupov, not argument there. But to say he is this defensive beast is incorrect as he plays with two defensive players.

How can you use stats to prove a qualifiable observation. Look at Toews corsi or GA/60 in previous years if you want. Or Hossa or Gagner. Its common knowledge Toews is great defensively and offensively too. Simply no stat that proves how good Saad is defensively in a vacuum, without assistance rom teammates, its not around, no fact or stat will "prove it" so stop saying people having a bad argument for not providing a yet-to-be invented stat

On the defensive sides he makes it easier for Saad as the game is simpler. Also he plays with a norris trophy winner and a TC member. Does that not contribute to his GA/60 score?

Offensively he plays with Toews and Hossa, both better then Gags/Hemsky, and both posted near similar even strength GF/60

Heres a quote for a recent article
"One of these guys had a very fine rookie season, playing alongside two of the game's best players. The other managed to make the same impact at even-strength playing with a rotation of guys, none of which are equal to Toews at this point in time, and then made an impact on the power play, too, despite being a year younger"

Also the PA Parenteau argument: He went from playing with Tavares to playing with Matt Duchene, pretty good consolation price id say. Duchene got 4 less points than JT this year


Last edited by topchowda: 05-06-2013 at 06:36 PM.
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05-06-2013, 06:29 PM
  #546
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Not mad at all bro could care less if Yakupov won or nominated just happy he is a Oiler , but your counter argument is weak period . How can anyone prove a opinion.
With facts.

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05-06-2013, 06:31 PM
  #547
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
I'm not saying it wasn't a cushy situation, I'm saying that Saad >>> Yakupov defensively.

You've already killed this strawman, let it be.
You musn't have been paying much attention because I never said Yakupov was as good as Saad defensively. I literally never argued that once.

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05-06-2013, 06:32 PM
  #548
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Originally Posted by Highway to Cap Hell View Post
I'm not saying it wasn't a cushy situation, I'm saying that Saad >>> Yakupov defensively.

You've already killed this strawman, let it be.
It has nothing to do with playing with Toews, Hossa, Keith, Seabrook

Because of course those guys are equal to Gagner, Hemsky, Schultz's defensively

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05-06-2013, 06:33 PM
  #549
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Meh. No issue with Saad or Gallagher ahead of Yakupov. They were important contributers on very good teams this year. If this was the deciding factor than Brodin should have likely been the other finalist. Yakupov > Huberdeau though. But writers made up their mind before the season even ended.
Can you go into Huberdeau's year for me? What are his strengths and weaknesses? What part of his game improved over the course of the year? what digresses? How did he play when he did not get points? was he still effective was he not (examples would be nice)? Did his line mates compliment him over the course of the year or did the line mates stuggle as well? How did he play without the puck?

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05-06-2013, 06:38 PM
  #550
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Contrary to popular belief, the Calder is awarded to the rookie of the season, not to the rookie of the last month of the season.

Brodin should've definitely been nominated over Huberdeau, though.
Game 1-48 would be the entire season right? Not just game 1-32? Wish someone told the voters last year that the last month doesn't count.

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