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Who was a Complete Hockey player?

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:05 PM
  #1
chooch*
 
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Who was a Complete Hockey player?

Some guy in another thread said that Messier was the "most complete hockey player" ever.

Well.. here's a synonym for "most complete player"...its "Greatest" or "Best" Hockey Player.

This is what I was getting at in the Messier thread. Obviously too many misunderstood or never saw these guys actually play.

Here's what the defnition is of Complete Hockey player:

1. skills
2. backchecking/ 2 way play
3.toughness
4.smarts
5.stamina

A five tool player. You can argue what the tools are. But this is hockey so you must include things like toughness or backchecking!
Unlike Ombongo's list predicated on scoring or trophies- Bob Gainey would be high on a most Complete/best/greatest player list based on this (hmmm the russians agreed - omobongo didnt)

As for 99 - strictly an offensive player lacking in essentials needed to be a complete or best hockey player. Not even close to being the greatest or best player ever.

Take Michael Jordan - best offensive player (8 scoring titles) and many defensive player of the year awards.

99 wouldnt even crack the top 100 - thats why Bowman didnt want him when 99 was selling himself around- he was a liability every time he stepped on the ice the last 12 years of his career.

As for Complete - Orr was more than 99 easily, or Rocket or Gordie or Hull or Lafleur or even Mario was a Man in front of the net and took his licks.

You can keep all your trophies and goals on Liut and Millen and pokey Reddick Whoop whooop!

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:07 PM
  #2
kmad
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Bryan Trottier for my money is the most complete player of all time

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:11 PM
  #3
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right now id say lehtinen, alltime I dunno

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:16 PM
  #4
VanIslander
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As I've explained on another thread recently, he may not be considered the greatest player but in terms of excellence in every aspect of the game, nobody was clearly better than Mark Messier.

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:18 PM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
Well.. here's a synonym for "most complete player"...its "Greatest" or "Best" Hockey Player.
Not true. I am getting annoyed by this. Come on chooch, what are you trying to prove? (I will skip chooch-initiated threads for a while)

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:18 PM
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
As I've explained on another thread recently, he may not be considered the greatest player but in terms of excellence in every aspect of the game, nobody was clearly better than Mark Messier.
That to me is "Greatest" then in your eyes.

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05-06-2005, 09:26 PM
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
That to me is "Greatest" then in your eyes.


Even though I think of Mess as a better "leader" I'd draft Gretzky ahead of Messier every time. Mario too. But only four or five others.

I think Messier is one of the Top 10 greatest hockey players of all-time, but not Top5.

Most people believe I OVERvalue him.

You are almost all alone in thinking him the greatest ever.

Most complete doesn't equal greatest ever. At least don't expect others to think so. I think Messier is the most complete player ever, but not the greatest player ever. There is no contradiction.

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Old
05-06-2005, 09:34 PM
  #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VanIslander
As I've explained on another thread recently, he may not be considered the greatest player but in terms of excellence in every aspect of the game, nobody was clearly better than Mark Messier.
Gordie Howe was.

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Old
05-06-2005, 10:01 PM
  #9
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Nice roundabout way to bash Gretzky. Do you stay up all night thinking of ways to do it?

Gretzky did not have to be an all around player because he was so damn good at scoring. If he could score two and set up three others, does it really matter if he was great defensively? They would win the game anyway. He dominated the offensive aspect of hockey so greatly that defense was virtually irrelevant.

It's like hitting 70 home runs in baseball. Does it really matter if you can steal bases?

What if a guy could putt so well that every time he hit the green he would one putt. 6 inches, 100 feet it didn't matter. He would drain it every time. Would it really be a big deal that he could only drive 270 yards?

Babe Ruth hit 60 home runs when most TEAMS were hitting 20. Did he really need to play defense like Ozzie Smith?

Dude, Gretzky's scoring was so dominant that playing defense was irrelevant. You are tyring to bash the wrong player. He is the undisputed #1. Except in your swimmy head.


Last edited by Ogopogo*: 05-06-2005 at 10:24 PM.
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Old
05-06-2005, 10:21 PM
  #10
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These threads should be combined under the title "New Jersey Hair Splitting Convention" (stolen from the film "12 Angry Men", the original with Henry Fonda).

Messier belongs to the Gordie Howe family of hockey players, guys who could beat you several ways.

Gretzky belongs to the family of extremely talented offensive players who were not physically intimidating. These players have limitations in some areas but also possess exceptional areas of strength. I would think a player of this type would have to tower over the competition to be considered the best of all time.

Wayne Gretzky is such a player.

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Old
05-06-2005, 10:23 PM
  #11
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I just noticed that you said "the Russians said Gainey was the best player in the world"

From the people that said communism was the best system in the world and the people that manufacture the Lada I guess they would be the foremost experts on NHL hockey.

You owe me for my drycleaning bill.




Mario a complete player.

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Old
05-06-2005, 10:26 PM
  #12
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When I was about 9, I was arguing hockey with a kid named Steve who happened to be a big Booby Hull fan. Since I was unable or unwilling to give credit to anyone outside the CH org., I told him that Bobby Hull was no good defensively.[I couldn't think of anything else] He promptly told me that 'He's not a defensive player, you idiot'. I haven't seen that Steve guy in about 40 years, but I assume he knew he was right.

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Old
05-06-2005, 10:46 PM
  #13
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For most complete player I think it's gotta go to Gordie Howe hands down, he did it all and very well.

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Old
05-06-2005, 10:49 PM
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The most complete player I think (I never saw him in person) was Gordie Howe. I am only making my observation from film though. I was thinking about Orr but I'm not sure that he had all the aspects covered, I think he lacked the physical presence. The most complete player I've personally seen and I was actually never a huge fan while he was playing, was Ray Bourque. He could play tough "D" or play offense. He could stay at home or lead the rush, he could protect the "skill guys" even though he was a skill guy himself. Now that I read my description of Bourque it sounds like Clark Gilles, he could score or play "D" or beat the crap out of you.........ah hell, flip a coin and pick one, I can't.

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Old
05-06-2005, 11:00 PM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I just noticed that you said "the Russians said Gainey was the best player in the world"
He's sort of right. It was the legendary Soviet coach Tikhonov who said that if he had a team full of Gaineys he'd never lose a game.

I began watching hockey as a youngster in the mid-seventies and my favourite players were Gainey, Dryden and Lafleur, until Gretzky, Messier and Coffey came around. (But I always cheered for my team first and foremost, the Canucks) I contend that all six of them were better than anyone in the game today. Ah, those were the days!

I saw only a little of Gordie Howe so I can't say much about him, but from what is said by those in the hockey world, he seems every much as deserving as Messier. But clearly better, head and shoulders type better? No.

Howe, like Messier, did many of the little "dirty" tactics to throw the opposition off their game and to draw penalties. That's a small but useful part of the game come playoff time, and Yzerman is too Lady Byng to do it, so is a bit short of a complete player, IMO.

Complete players include: Mark Messier, Gordie Howe and... Raymond Bourque!

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Old
05-06-2005, 11:18 PM
  #16
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There's a lot of complete hockey players.In my lifetime, Bryan Trottier, Mark Messier, Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque were the best in that. Obviously Howe and Rocket were too. All in all I'm not gonna choose one, I think all these guys were great.

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Old
05-07-2005, 12:52 AM
  #17
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Perhaps Chooch should go to the "newbies read this" sticky at the top. Not only does he make disparaging remarks about volunteer moderators on a free forum, but he seems to need a refresher course on the definition of "trolling."

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Old
05-07-2005, 01:02 AM
  #18
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Complete players: Gentlemen who are equally adept at scoring goals as they are at playing other aspects of the game whether it is physical or defensive.

Forwards- Gordie Howe, Jean Beliveau, Mark Messier, Brian Trottier, Jari Kurri, Bobby Clarke, Frank Mahovlich

Defense- Bobby Orr, Doug Harvey, Larry Robinson, Denis Potvin, Ray Bourque and Chris Chelios

In that order.

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Old
05-07-2005, 06:43 AM
  #19
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Mario was complete but Wayne was not?

Good one!

Next thing you will tell me is that Gretzky would be no better than, say, Steve Sullivan in today's league.

...

Wait, you did say that didn't you?

Did Gretzky run over your dog or something? Refuse to go to prom with you? Get a TRO? Knock up your girlfriend? Gotta be something that caused this irrational hate.

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Old
05-07-2005, 07:46 AM
  #20
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I think that K10 and chooch go a little overboard with the Gretzky bashing because if anyone utters the slightest word against him people come out in droves to say that you're wrong and he's perfect. It does get a little annoying but I'm not ready to start a Gretz = Sullivan thread.

When I think of complete hockey players I would have to go with Clarke, Trottier, Potvin, Robinson, Orr, Fetisov, 90's Yzerman and Forsberg. Those players were great over the whole ice and would go through a wall to make the team win.

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Old
05-07-2005, 10:37 AM
  #21
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1) Darryl Sittler
2) Doug Gilmour
3) Syl Apps
4) Mats Sundin

in that order

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Old
05-07-2005, 10:49 AM
  #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leaf Lander
1) Darryl Sittler
2) Doug Gilmour
3) Syl Apps
4) Mats Sundin

in that order
You sound unbiased I must say.

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Old
05-07-2005, 12:22 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
There's a lot of complete hockey players.In my lifetime, Bryan Trottier, Mark Messier, Bobby Orr and Ray Bourque were the best in that. Obviously Howe and Rocket were too. All in all I'm not gonna choose one, I think all these guys were great.

Where's all the rest of the great two way players from your 60's / 70's salad days???

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Old
05-07-2005, 01:21 PM
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad
Bryan Trottier for my money is the most complete player of all time
Walking out of the NYI/Soviet Red Army game played during the '79 season, Habs legend Toe Blake turned to then-Isles GM Bill Torrey and said he had never witnessed a more complete hockey player than #19. That story has been told numerous times by BT.

Watching him play for two decades, I agree 100%.

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Old
05-07-2005, 01:23 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Bucky
Where's all the rest of the great two way players from your 60's / 70's salad days???
What the hell is your problem kid? Every post you either attack me or chooch or Lafleur. Get a life.

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