And Yzerman and Sakic belong right next to each other, probably splitting the difference between 30 and 16. I don't see how Sakic has yet pulled ahead of Yzerman in terms of their careers. Yes, he's considerably better now but I don't think he's met Stevie's achievements yet.
Am I missing something or is Trottier not listed? If he isn't, then this list is a sham. Heck, if he's not in the top 25, this list is a sham. Trotts was not only an elite scorer back in his day (five 100-point seasons, an Art Ross, Hart and Conn Smythe), but a ferocious competitor, excellent forechecker, physical presence and leader. IMO, one of the 10 or 15 best centres of all time.
This list is way too focused on modern players. Forsberg at 17? Jagr at 21? Guys like Bure, Modano, Kariya, Oates and Niedermayer (as much as I love the guy). None of these guys are Hall worthy. Good to see Shore and Harvey in the top 10, but not much respect for the history of the game, especially those who dominated in the 60s and 70s. (Espo is one of the 15 best players in history, if not the top 10).
Oh my God, haha. I'm sure they just totally forgot about him, they couldn't have possibly deliberately left him off. Could they?
And while I think Forsberg is listed too high, he's better than Lindros. Two cups and better playoff numbers. Good luck holding Peter to 0 points in a four game sweep.
Am I missing something or is Trottier not listed? If he isn't, then this list is a sham. Heck, if he's not in the top 25, this list is a sham. Trotts was not only an elite scorer back in his day (five 100-point seasons, an Art Ross, Hart and Conn Smythe), but a ferocious competitor, excellent forechecker, physical presence and leader. IMO, one of the 10 or 15 best centres of all time.
This list is way too focused on modern players. Forsberg at 17? Jagr at 21? Guys like Bure, Modano, Kariya, Oates and Niedermayer (as much as I love the guy). None of these guys are Hall worthy. Good to see Shore and Harvey in the top 10, but not much respect for the history of the game, especially those who dominated in the 60s and 70s. (Espo is one of the 15 best players in history, if not the top 10).
Trottier was the 6th best center I've ever seen in my life.
LaFleur is a right wing, the third best right wing of all time, IMO. (Ahead of Bossy, behind consensus 1-2 Howe and Richard).
I think Gretzky, Lemieux and Beliveau are 1-2-3 on most lists for centres. Then, IMO, it's a crap shoot with Espo, Clarke, Trottier, Messier (as much as I hate the guy), Sakic, Yzerman, Mikita and a couple others. (I'm not sold on Dionne's place in the history of the game as others).
And as far as an all-round player, I'd take Forsberg over Jagr, too.
I think Gretzky, Lemieux and Beliveau are 1-2-3 on most lists for centres. Then, IMO, it's a crap shoot with Espo, Clarke, Trottier, Messier (as much as I hate the guy), Sakic, Yzerman, Mikita and a couple others. (I'm not sold on Dionne's place in the history of the game as others).
Never saw Beliveau, and little of Mikita, so I cannot comment on either of them. But I agree with your overall assessment.
#99 and #66 are on another plateau above the rest of the mere mortals, at least among those I've seen.
Espo is one of those weird players, as he was/is known for being a prolific scorer in the slot, but by all accounts he was a complete player, though he certainly didn't look the part. I'd place Clarke a slight level below the others on that list, although prior to Trottier, he was the most complete forward in the game at that time (mid-70s), IMO, and his reputation as a warrior is unquestionable. Also agree that Dionne is generally a tad overrated on these boards. Gun to my head, I'd give Messier and Trottier the nod over Sakic and Yzerman, but that in no way is meant to slight the latter two players' GREATNESS.
And as far as an all-round player, I'd take Forsberg over Jagr, too.
I'm a huge Espo fan, so maybe I rate him a little higher than others. The guy was a fierce competitor. Incredibly intense, hated to lose. IMO, he's the best leader in the history of the game. (Witness the rant in 72). Wouldn't have wanted to be on the flight back home from Moscow if Canada would have lost that thing. One of the great characters in the history of the game.
(To paraphrase an Espo interview with THN a few years ago: I've never understood what would possess somebody to want to kill another human being, but I would have killed to win in 72).
Dionne gets highly rated because he put up some great numbers. Can't take that away from him. IMO, he's very deserving of that HHOF spot. But he was one-dimensional. Probably should be in the 15-20 area for all-time centres. Having met the guy, he's also a jerk.
LaFleur is a right wing, the third best right wing of all time, IMO. (Ahead of Bossy, behind consensus 1-2 Howe and Richard).
Sorry that was a bit of a joke that I had, I know all about Lafleur... it was a jab at K-10 for having to mention Lafleur in every single one of his posts.
It should be a lot closer to this list (see below) than it is. Do the NHL2Night experts really do their homework before ranking current players ahead of all time greats from the past? I think not.
My list below needs to have some data added so, this is not going to be the final placings. It is close to where things will end up but, I suspect a few players will change when I add the new data I have found.
That being said, this list is a LOT more accurate than the NHL2Night list.
Putting Mario Lemieux ahead of Gordie Howe is completely moronic.
Total
1 Wayne Gretzky 254
2 Gordie Howe 239
3 Bobby Orr 161
4 Maurice "Rocket" Richard 131
5 Eddie Shore* 128
6 Bobby Hull 121
Jean Believeau 121
8 Ray Bourque 120
9 Mario Lemieux 119
10 Doug Harvey 114
11 Phil Esposito 110
12 Stan Mikita 104
13 Cy Denneny* 101
14 Howie Morenz* 97
15 Jaromir Jagr 90
16 Guy Lafleur 89
17 Ted Lindsay 86
18 Leonard "Red" Kelly* 83
19 Paul Coffey 80
20 Cecil " Babe" Dye* 73
21 Bill Cowley 71
22 Mike Bossy 70
23 Denis Potvin 64
24 Andy Bathgate 63
Mark Messier 63
26 Aurel Joliat* 61
27 Francis "King" Clancy* 60
Harry Cameron* 59
29 Frank Mahovlich 59
30 Bobby Clarke 58
Frank Boucher* 58
32 Pierre Pilote 57
Nicklas Lidstrom 57
34 Chris Chelios 56
Elmer Lach 56
36 Bill Cook* 55
37 Aubrey "Dit" Clapper* 54
38 Nels Stewart* 53
Joe Sakic 53
Bryan Trottier 53
41 Marcel Dionne 52
42 Hector "Toe" Blake 51
Bernie Geoffrion 51
44 Larry Robinson 50
45 Edouard "Newsy" Lalonde* 49
Charlie Conacher 49
Earl Seibert* 49
48 Joe Malone* 47
49 Peter Forsberg 46
Jari Kurri 46
51 Sid Abel 45.5
52 Doug Bentley 45
Harvey "Busher" Jackson 45
54 Milt Schmidt 43
Max Bentley 43
Syl Apps, Sr. 43
Henri Richard 43
58 Luc Robitaille 42
George Boucher* 42
60 Frank Nighbor* 41
61 Brett Hull 39
Ebbie Goodfellow* 39
Sprague Cleghorn* 39
64 Al MacInnis 38
David "Sweeney" Schriner 38
66 Dickie Moore 37
67 Paul Kariya 36
Bryan Hextall, Sr. 36
69 Brian Leetch 35
Ken Reardon* 35
Jacques Laperriere 35
72 Teemu Selanne 34
Clarence "Hap" Day* 34
Yvan Cournoyer 34
75 Albert "Babe" Seibert* 33
Emile "Butch" Bouchard* 33
77 Jack Stewart* 32
Tim Horton 32
79 Markus Naslund 31
Brad Park 31
Reg Noble* 31
82 Gord Drillon 30
Ivan "Ching" Johnson* 30
84 Ted Kennedy 29.5
85 Rod Langway 29
86 Bill Quackenbush* 28
John LeClair 28
Marty Barry 28
89 Bill Gadsby 27
Jack Adams* 27
Harry "Punch" Broadbent* 27
92 Pavel Bure 26
Norm Ullman 26
Michel Goulet 26
Billy Boucher* 26
Ken Hodge 26
Lionel Conacher* 26
Walter "Babe" Pratt* 26
Steve Yzerman 26
Steve Shutt 26
Guy Lapointe 26
I'm a huge Espo fan, so maybe I rate him a little higher than others. The guy was a fierce competitor. Incredibly intense, hated to lose. IMO, he's the best leader in the history of the game. (Witness the rant in 72). Wouldn't have wanted to be on the flight back home from Moscow if Canada would have lost that thing. One of the great characters in the history of the game.
(To paraphrase an Espo interview with THN a few years ago: I've never understood what would possess somebody to want to kill another human being, but I would have killed to win in 72).
Vaguely recall the '72 Summit Series, being a mere lad at the time. Was aware, at the time, of it's epic place in hockey's history, however. Received the '72 DVD a couple years back, and man, was that a great gift.
For those who are unfamiliar, hard to convey the authentic drama (no made-for-TV crap, or melodramatic ESPN storyline, thank you!) of that series.
The ebb and flow of that series, leading up to the finish could not be written. It was really several "acts" within one eight-game "play".
And Esposito's post-game interview following the Vancouver game is worth the price of the DVD alone. I do not for a moment doubt the sincerity of his quote that you cite above, i.e., "would have killed to win...". For if you watch closely the intensity of that series on both sides, an intensity which somehow just kept getting greater and greater with each game, it is hard to conclude otherwise.
The stickwork...Cashman shining his crazy toothless grin in the face of a Soviet player...Clarke purposely clubbing his stick down on Kharlamov's ankle and then, moment's afterward, he too, sticking his face, sans front teeth, in his victim's grill.
Some would call it a disgraceful display, even barbaric. On some levels, perhaps it was.
For me, it was hockey - sports - at it's very best.
This is a fairly bad list. A few random points:
- Kurri at 29, Forsberg at 17 and Bossy at 14 are all too high (though, of course, they are all great talents)
- Howe should be ahead of Lemieux
- Morenz is only 39? He was arguably the best player in history up until Howe.
- Mogilny at 58 is way, way too high.
- Overall the list has many bizarre omissions (Bathgate, Cowley, Seibert, Clancy, Denneny, Trottier, Stewart, Apps, Kennedy, Boucher, Gadsby, Primeau, Joliat, Dye, Brimsek, etc) and way too many modern players. The people who made the list seem to have little knowledge about hockey history, or choose to ignore it for whatever reasons.
- Scott Neidermayer and Phil Housley (no disrespect to either) are better than Earl Seibert and King Clancy?!
What's this, Ogopogo posted his top 100 again? Dude, I think we have it floating around this site enough times as it is. Not that it matters, we just roll our eyes and hit "page down" until we get to the next post
We have it in an earlier posting. Just put a link to it in your message, or tell us to go to that thread.
