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Alain Vigneault - The Watch Begins.

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Old
05-20-2013, 06:05 PM
  #951
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
That would be the round we're not playing in, right?
Surely you don't think Torres would be the difference between a Shark's sweep and a canuck's series win?

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05-20-2013, 06:14 PM
  #952
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
Or maybe it's because the Canucks are too busy trying to get their AHL team location decided before the deadline ends (in two or three weeks).

Let's see, you have three months to replace a coach and a few weeks to choose an AHL location (otherwise you don't get a team).
Hmmm....we should definitely focus on coaching right now.
I would hope that a Billionaire business man and his highly paid GM can deal with 2 separate yet equally important decisions at the same time.

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05-20-2013, 06:16 PM
  #953
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Thank you for that LS. I didn't want to take time to spell this out to someone who is clearly thick or biased. Well done on your part. But you forgot to preface it with some sort of witty insult like, "let me dumb this down for you..."
Ya I didn't want to go there.

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05-20-2013, 06:21 PM
  #954
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Originally Posted by Castle1 View Post
I would hope that a Billionaire business man and his highly paid GM can deal with 2 separate yet equally important decisions at the same time.
as i see it they have a lot of decisions to make

A: coaching staff
1: vigneault
2: general assistants
3: post-av guys brought in - melanson, brown

B: AHL affiliate
1: interdependent on A - do we want arneil for this job?

C: why were sales down?
1: is this dependent on playstyle? can we follow our plan and make the on-ice product better
2: is de bonis doing his job marketing? was it really necessary that he and gilman appear on the radio to try to market the team before the ******* playoffs? if so, why? is de bonis at fault here, or is it a team thing?
3: is the market depressed? is our community work sufficient, can we be reaching out more?
4: dependent on AHL affiliate - should we be trying to sell our AHL product? how? if so, would it be better to wait until we have it in our backyard

D: buyouts
1: are you willing to buyout booth and ballard
2: are you willing to acquire players to buyout instead
3: what if we want to buyout someone with a huge AAV versus someone with a smaller one. do we care about the optics?

E: roster
1: do we care about fan attachments (burr, bieksa, eddie)
2: do we care about NTCS, soon-to-be-NTCS
3: how much of the coaching problems we think we have might be related to roster, and vise versa? if av is mostly at fault, do we even need to alter our direction/roster much?


two decisions

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05-20-2013, 06:28 PM
  #955
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
as i see it they have a lot of decisions to make

A: coaching staff
1: vigneault
2: general assistants
3: post-av guys brought in - melanson, brown

B: AHL affiliate
1: interdependent on A - do we want arneil for this job?

C: why were sales down?
1: is this dependent on playstyle? can we follow our plan and make the on-ice product better
2: is de bonis doing his job marketing? was it really necessary that he and gilman appear on the radio to try to market the team before the ******* playoffs? if so, why? is de bonis at fault here, or is it a team thing?
3: is the market depressed? is our community work sufficient, can we be reaching out more?
4: dependent on AHL affiliate - should we be trying to sell our AHL product? how? if so, would it be better to wait until we have it in our backyard

D: buyouts
1: are you willing to buyout booth and ballard
2: are you willing to acquire players to buyout instead
3: what if we want to buyout someone with a huge AAV versus someone with a smaller one. do we care about the optics?

E: roster
1: do we care about fan attachments (burr, bieksa, eddie)
2: do we care about NTCS, soon-to-be-NTCS
3: how much of the coaching problems we think we have might be related to roster, and vise versa? if av is mostly at fault, do we even need to alter our direction/roster much?


two decisions

Yes. Big business = big decisions. Although not on the same dollar level as these decisions, I have to triage problems and come up with solutions at work on a regular basis.

Your previous post was sarcastic insinuating the club needed to focus on the AHL team and could not deal with the coaching issue because of it.

I simply pointed out that a billionaire and his highly paid staff have the resources and business acumen to be able to deal with multiple issues at the same time.

Simple really.

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05-20-2013, 06:32 PM
  #956
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Originally Posted by Castle1 View Post
I would hope that a Billionaire business man and his highly paid GM can deal with 2 separate yet equally important decisions at the same time.
You make it sound like setting up an AHL team is easy.
Man, you should be the GM.

And I'm sure there are things they are doing which we don't know about. For all we know, they could have decided to replace AV already, but they haven't decided on his replacement yet.

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05-20-2013, 06:36 PM
  #957
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
as i see it they have a lot of decisions to make

A: coaching staff
1: vigneault
2: general assistants
3: post-av guys brought in - melanson, brown

B: AHL affiliate
1: interdependent on A - do we want arneil for this job?

C: why were sales down?
1: is this dependent on playstyle? can we follow our plan and make the on-ice product better
2: is de bonis doing his job marketing? was it really necessary that he and gilman appear on the radio to try to market the team before the ******* playoffs? if so, why? is de bonis at fault here, or is it a team thing?
3: is the market depressed? is our community work sufficient, can we be reaching out more?
4: dependent on AHL affiliate - should we be trying to sell our AHL product? how? if so, would it be better to wait until we have it in our backyard

D: buyouts
1: are you willing to buyout booth and ballard
2: are you willing to acquire players to buyout instead
3: what if we want to buyout someone with a huge AAV versus someone with a smaller one. do we care about the optics?

E: roster
1: do we care about fan attachments (burr, bieksa, eddie)
2: do we care about NTCS, soon-to-be-NTCS
3: how much of the coaching problems we think we have might be related to roster, and vise versa? if av is mostly at fault, do we even need to alter our direction/roster much?


two decisions
solid breakdown

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05-20-2013, 06:39 PM
  #958
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Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
How about this...

You are discrediting Gillis for not signing Salo to a ridiculously bad contract which means you are the person not getting it, not the people you are "dumbing it down" for.

Also, in the case of Mitchell, don't you think the fact that he had a major problem with the coach, even to the point where they weren't speaking for months, might have been the reason he didn't re-sign here? You can blame Gillis for not firing AV sooner but I think you'd have to blame AV for the fact that we lost Mitchell.
"Ridiculously bad contract" = 2 years @ $3.75M per? That's "ridiculously bad" to you, in exchange for a veteran like Salo, one of our best defenceman (quite honestly) ever? I'd call that a ridiculously bad statement, on your part. I'm giving Salo 2 years and $3.75M per before I'm giving Garrison 6 years and $4.6M per, especially looking at the current context of this team.

If Mitchell had a "major problem" with the coach, then Kesler must, too, right? I recall Willie Mitchell being very vocal and blatant in his desire to stay a Canuck. Mike Gillis chose to let him walk, and it's just that simple.

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05-20-2013, 06:44 PM
  #959
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
"Ridiculously bad contract" = 2 years @ $3.75M per? That's "ridiculously bad" to you, in exchange for a veteran like Salo, one of our best defenceman (quite honestly) ever? I'd call that a ridiculously bad statement, on your part. I'm giving Salo 2 years and $3.75M per before I'm giving Garrison 6 years and $4.6M per, especially looking at the current context of this team.

If Mitchell had a "major problem" with the coach, then Kesler must, too, right? I recall Willie Mitchell being very vocal and blatant in his desire to stay a Canuck. Mike Gillis chose to let him walk, and it's just that simple.
Garrison was the best D on the team this season. And signing Salo to a two year contract at that cap hit with his injury history is a huge risk.

I hated to see Salo go, but anything more than a one year contract at a time did not make sense for the Canucks.

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05-20-2013, 06:46 PM
  #960
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Originally Posted by Nuckles37 View Post
You make it sound like setting up an AHL team is easy.
Man, you should be the GM.

And I'm sure there are things they are doing which we don't know about. For all we know, they could have decided to replace AV already, but they haven't decided on his replacement yet.
I did not mean to come across as stating setting up an AHL team is easy. Merely that they have the required resources to deal with multiple issues at once...thats all.

And I agree with your bolded to the extreme. Those of us merely reading a Canucks board have no idea about all the activity within the organization.

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05-20-2013, 06:50 PM
  #961
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Originally Posted by Castle1 View Post
Yes. Big business = big decisions. Although not on the same dollar level as these decisions, I have to triage problems and come up with solutions at work on a regular basis.

Your previous post was sarcastic insinuating the club needed to focus on the AHL team and could not deal with the coaching issue because of it.

I simply pointed out that a billionaire and his highly paid staff have the resources and business acumen to be able to deal with multiple issues at the same time.

Simple really.
you got me mixed up with another guy, i think. i wasnt in this conversation prior

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05-20-2013, 06:53 PM
  #962
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
1 2nd round pick for a rental in the 5 years that Gillis has been here. Wow that's really great stuff to stand on there. If Nonis had done that, it wouldnt have been an issue.

Here's a rundown for you as you either started watching hockey recently or a Nonis supporter.

Dave Nonis let's Jovanovski walk without even offering a contract. When asked near the deadline why he doesnt try and trade Jovo his answer was "You dont trade a guy like Jovanovski". Yet he wasnt good enough to even offer a contract.

Dave Nonis signs Naslund who tested free agency for 7 mil while Niedermayer was willing to sign here on the condition that his brother would be brought here as well. Wow, that's a hard decision there

Dave Nonis trades a 3rd round pick for Eric Weinrich (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Keith Carney (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick and a 4th for Brent Sopel (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Bryan Smolinski (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Mika Noronen (RENTAL)

Dave Nonis trades Matt Cooke for Matt Pettinger (Not in the NHL anymore)

Free agency signings like Isbister, Chouinard, Ritchie, Fitzpatrick, Miller.

And to simply rebut your upcoming post of Gillis' FA signings of guys like Sturm (Whom he traded almost immediately), those Nonis signings were all for guys he tried in the top6 repeatedly and tried them on the PP. (Ritchie on the point LOL).

EDIT: Oh ya... "BUT BUT 2nd round pick for ROY!!!! OMG!"

Dave Nonis' trading of draft picks and inability to know when to walk from players greatly set this franchise back.

While Gillis hasnt been great, he's sure as **** better than Nonis.
-Andrew Alberts was acquired for a 3rd round pick at the deadline
-Chris Higgins was acquired for a 3rd round pick and a prospect at the deadline
-Max Lapierre was acquired for a 3rd round pick and a prospect at the deadline
-Sami Pahlsson was acquired for 2 4th round picks and a prospect at the deadline
-Derek Roy was acquired for a 2nd round pick and a very good prospect at the deadline

Whether they're "rentals" or not is mostly immaterial - though being a rental does sting more, I agree with you, the point is that Gillis clearly is just as OK as Nonis was with pissing away picks at the deadline for marginal upgrades. I have a bad feeling that we're really going to regret trading away Connauton.

On Niedermayer - show me proof, or it's BS. Our team was not competitive when Niedermayer was a UFA (missed the playoffs), and Anaheim was coming off of a Cup finals appearance (and Rob also happened to be playing there, a convenient part of the tale that you missed). Not a very difficult choice.

Cooke for Pettinger. Bad move, yes. But Cooke was going to be leaving as UFA, anyway. This city hated Cooke and wanted him gone, which was stupid. But again, this is a microscopic error when compared to Gillis' Ballard, Booth, and Kassian acquisitions.

And it's funny that you reference Nonis' inability to know when to walk away as a downfall of his. I'm sorry, don't we have two goaltenders with big contracts on our team? Don't we have to trade a guy who signed a 12-year contract, a guy that nobody wants? How's that for "knowing when to fold 'em"?

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05-20-2013, 06:55 PM
  #963
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
-Andrew Alberts was acquired for a 3rd round pick at the deadline
-Chris Higgins was acquired for a 3rd round pick and a prospect at the deadline
-Max Lapierre was acquired for a 3rd round pick and a prospect at the deadline
-Sami Pahlsson was acquired for 2 4th round picks and a prospect at the deadline
-Derek Roy was acquired for a 2nd round pick and a very good prospect at the deadline

Whether they're "rentals" or not is mostly immaterial - though being a rental does sting more, I agree with you, the point is that Gillis clearly is just as OK as Nonis was with pissing away picks at the deadline for marginal upgrades.
that point does not exist from the list you created.

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05-20-2013, 06:57 PM
  #964
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
"Ridiculously bad contract" = 2 years @ $3.75M per? That's "ridiculously bad" to you, in exchange for a veteran like Salo, one of our best defenceman (quite honestly) ever? I'd call that a ridiculously bad statement, on your part. I'm giving Salo 2 years and $3.75M per before I'm giving Garrison 6 years and $4.6M per, especially looking at the current context of this team.

If Mitchell had a "major problem" with the coach, then Kesler must, too, right? I recall Willie Mitchell being very vocal and blatant in his desire to stay a Canuck. Mike Gillis chose to let him walk, and it's just that simple.
Not sure what there is to say if you think Salo was anything but a glorified #6 defenseman in his last year. Jason Garrison is ten times the hockey player Sami Salo is at this point. You're out to lunch.

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05-20-2013, 06:59 PM
  #965
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
On Niedermayer - show me proof, or it's BS. Our team was not competitive when Niedermayer was a UFA (missed the playoffs), and Anaheim was coming off of a Cup finals appearance (and Rob also happened to be playing there, a convenient part of the tale that you missed). Not a very difficult choice.
Wrong offseason. Niedermayer was a UFA prior to the 05/06 season. The Canucks were division champs and the Ducks were bottom feeders.

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05-20-2013, 06:59 PM
  #966
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I hated to see Salo go, but anything more than a one year contract at a time did not make sense for the Canucks.
Why?

I hear that a lot, and I have no idea what it's backed up by. This team is old, and they have a short window to act. The window is probably dead-bolted shut now, but at the start of this year, expectations were there. Salo for two years, a veteran, seems to me exactly what a veteran team like ours would want. I have no idea how it's "so risky" to sign Salo for two years, but it's somehow acceptable to have a guy with a $4.25M cap hit playing 3rd-pairing minutes and/or completely benched.

FWIW, Salo missed a whopping 2 games this year, and still ended up with more points than Garrison.

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05-20-2013, 07:01 PM
  #967
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Originally Posted by King of the ES View Post
-Andrew Alberts was acquired for a 3rd round pick at the deadline
-Chris Higgins was acquired for a 3rd round pick and a prospect at the deadline
-Max Lapierre was acquired for a 3rd round pick and a prospect at the deadline
-Sami Pahlsson was acquired for 2 4th round picks and a prospect at the deadline
-Derek Roy was acquired for a 2nd round pick and a very good prospect at the deadline

Whether they're "rentals" or not is mostly immaterial - though being a rental does sting more, I agree with you, the point is that Gillis clearly is just as OK as Nonis was with pissing away picks at the deadline for marginal upgrades. I have a bad feeling that we're really going to regret trading away Connauton.

On Niedermayer - show me proof, or it's BS. Our team was not competitive when Niedermayer was a UFA (missed the playoffs), and Anaheim was coming off of a Cup finals appearance (and Rob also happened to be playing there, a convenient part of the tale that you missed). Not a very difficult choice.

Cooke for Pettinger. Bad move, yes. But Cooke was going to be leaving as UFA, anyway. This city hated Cooke and wanted him gone, which was stupid. But again, this is a microscopic error when compared to Gillis' Ballard, Booth, and Kassian acquisitions.

And it's funny that you reference Nonis' inability to know when to walk away as a downfall of his. I'm sorry, don't we have two goaltenders with big contracts on our team? Don't we have to trade a guy who signed a 12-year contract, a guy that nobody wants? How's that for "knowing when to fold 'em"?
This highlights three things:

1.) Gillis repeatedly acquires better talent than Nonis did

2.) Gillis pays less for the better talent

3.) Gillis acquires players that fit into the team and stay with the team for reasonable salaries moving forward.

You are inadvertently undermining your own argument. The Roy trade didn't work out for one reason or another, but it was still an excellent value deal for the Canucks.


Finally, when you consider how far Connauton was down the depth chart and how much he'd struggled in the Canucks system, his trade value was probably near zero. I don't see how the Canucks could possibly regret that trade. Sure, Connauton could flourish in another system, but he wasn't in the Canucks'. He seems like a nice kid, though, so I hope he does.


Last edited by Proto: 05-20-2013 at 07:06 PM.
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05-20-2013, 07:05 PM
  #968
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Why?

I hear that a lot, and I have no idea what it's backed up by. This team is old, and they have a short window to act. The window is probably dead-bolted shut now, but at the start of this year, expectations were there. Salo for two years, a veteran, seems to me exactly what a veteran team like ours would want. I have no idea how it's "so risky" to sign Salo for two years, but it's somehow acceptable to have a guy with a $4.25M cap hit playing 3rd-pairing minutes and/or completely benched.

FWIW, Salo missed a whopping 2 games this year, and still ended up with more points than Garrison.
That's great for him. But it doesn't change the the fact that it was a risk considering his injury history.

It's not acceptable having Ballard benched—he should have been gone a long time ago—but I'm not sure what this has to do with Salo.

At their respective ages and contracts, I'd take Garrison over Salo in a heartbeat.

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05-20-2013, 07:06 PM
  #969
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Why?

I hear that a lot, and I have no idea what it's backed up by. This team is old, and they have a short window to act. The window is probably dead-bolted shut now, but at the start of this year, expectations were there. Salo for two years, a veteran, seems to me exactly what a veteran team like ours would want. I have no idea how it's "so risky" to sign Salo for two years, but it's somehow acceptable to have a guy with a $4.25M cap hit playing 3rd-pairing minutes and/or completely benched.

FWIW, Salo missed a whopping 2 games this year, and still ended up with more points than Garrison.
Salo is simply not very good anymore, and was a borderline liability in his last season in Vancouver. For someone who talks about being tough to play against a lot, you sure seem to have a soft spot for butter soft defensemen who are too old to play difficult defensive minutes.

If you don't understand how good Garrison is, I'd have to dumb this down a lot to explain it to you

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05-20-2013, 07:11 PM
  #970
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FWIW, Salo missed a whopping 2 games this year, and still ended up with more points than Garrison.
And you wanted Gillis to retain Willie Mitchell instead of sigining Garrison. Garrison was our best dman this season and Willie Mitchell didn't play a game all year.

This is why he let aging blueliners with a ton of miles in Ohlund, Mitchell and Salo walk and replace them with younger, more durable players. You can only have so many seasons go down the toilet with multiple injuries to your top 4 before you learn your lesson.

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05-20-2013, 07:13 PM
  #971
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Originally Posted by LiquidSnake View Post
1 2nd round pick for a rental in the 5 years that Gillis has been here. Wow that's really great stuff to stand on there. If Nonis had done that, it wouldnt have been an issue.

Here's a rundown for you as you either started watching hockey recently or a Nonis supporter.

Dave Nonis let's Jovanovski walk without even offering a contract. When asked near the deadline why he doesnt try and trade Jovo his answer was "You dont trade a guy like Jovanovski". Yet he wasnt good enough to even offer a contract.

Dave Nonis signs Naslund who tested free agency for 7 mil while Niedermayer was willing to sign here on the condition that his brother would be brought here as well. Wow, that's a hard decision there

Dave Nonis trades a 3rd round pick for Eric Weinrich (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Keith Carney (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick and a 4th for Brent Sopel (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Bryan Smolinski (RENTAL)
Dave Nonis trades a 2nd round pick for Mika Noronen (RENTAL)

Dave Nonis trades Matt Cooke for Matt Pettinger (Not in the NHL anymore)

Free agency signings like Isbister, Chouinard, Ritchie, Fitzpatrick, Miller.

And to simply rebut your upcoming post of Gillis' FA signings of guys like Sturm (Whom he traded almost immediately), those Nonis signings were all for guys he tried in the top6 repeatedly and tried them on the PP. (Ritchie on the point LOL).

EDIT: Oh ya... "BUT BUT 2nd round pick for ROY!!!! OMG!"

Dave Nonis' trading of draft picks and inability to know when to walk from players greatly set this franchise back.

While Gillis hasnt been great, he's sure as **** better than Nonis.
And just to add insult to injury. The one rental Gillis does acquire happens to be a legitimate top six centreman with a reputation for being good on the point - not that AV bothered to utilize such an asset. There is still a possibility Roy re-signs given his ties to Vancouver. But yeah, Gillis is a screw up compared to Nonis.

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05-20-2013, 07:13 PM
  #972
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FWIW, Salo missed a whopping 2 games this year, and still ended up with more points than Garrison.
If only Gillis could see into the future and notice that Salo wouldn't be injury prone for the first time since 2003.

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05-20-2013, 07:15 PM
  #973
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And for what it's worth, I don't think anyone is arguing that Gillis keeping Ballard as a drag on the roster and the salary cap was good management. It was stubborn and foolish. Gillis has made some other critical mistakes, as well. But on the whole I have yet to see a compelling argument that he hasn't seen largely positive results.

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05-20-2013, 07:16 PM
  #974
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And for what it's worth, I don't think anyone is arguing that Gillis keeping Ballard as a drag on the roster and the salary cap was good management. It was stubborn and foolish. Gillis has made some other critical mistakes, as well. But on the whole I have yet to see a compelling argument that he hasn't seen largely positive results.
id like to see an argument for exactly when, and what he trades ballard for, and to compare that against the small (but still real) chance that he develops into a contributor

edit: over the past years of his tenure, that is. keeping him any longer would be inexcusably stubborn as opposed to justifiably

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05-20-2013, 07:19 PM
  #975
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proto View Post
Salo is simply not very good anymore, and was a borderline liability in his last season in Vancouver. For someone who talks about being tough to play against a lot, you sure seem to have a soft spot for butter soft defensemen who are too old to play difficult defensive minutes.

If you don't understand how good Garrison is, I'd have to dumb this down a lot to explain it to you
Newsflash - Jason Garrison is not exactly Chris Pronger. You think he's tough to play against? Doesn't hit anyone and plays with zero emotion.

And yeah, I know, Garrison's the darling of the "advanced" stats crowd. Too bad those don't tend to correlate with wins. How many times has Garrison been out of the 1st round?

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