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Alain Vigneault - The Watch Begins.

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Old
05-08-2013, 10:45 PM
  #151
Finkle is Einhorn
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Originally Posted by Hollywood Burrows View Post
I'll just say first that I don't think it's at all a sure thing that AV will be fired. I was disappointed by the coaching staff during this series, but still believe our problems have to do with personnel, not coaching.

Whoever Gillis hires to replace AV will almost certainly be an objectively worse coach than AV. AV haters have to acknowledge his track record of success. He will certainly be the #1 candidate for every other club looking to hire a coach. I think he would be an inspired choice to coach the Oilers, and I believe it's a real possibility. We have to admit to ourselves that a change may be at least partially motivated by a "breath of fresh air" mentality rather than trying to upgrade our coaching. This is a tough situation.

I find it highly unlikely that Guy Boucher or Dallas Eakins is a smarter, harder working, dedicated, or more innovative coach than Vigneault. It's just really, really unlikely. Unless we can somehow land an established, elite coach (basically Babcock, Quenneville, Bylsma, Tippet, Hitchcock, Sutter) we are quite likely downgrading our team in objective coaching ability. At the very least, a lesser/unknown hire represents a huge question mark. Combine a coaching change with an aging roster and we're almost certainly going to see a less successful club next season. Don't undervalue the stability AV brings to the team.

Change for change's sake, or change to appease media jackals, is a bush-league Edmonton-style move. If Aquillini forces a reluctant Gillis to fire AV to appease his yaletown cokeparty buddies, we are ****ed as a franchise.

EDIT: I think a good compromise would be to fire Bowness. Everyone's complaints seemed to lie with D pairings anyways. AV can get over losing his buddy if he gets to keep his job. Besides, last time we fired an assistant everyone here hailed it as a genius move.
I've seen many well-thought-out arguments as to why AV should be fired, using examples from specific games in addition to more overarching issues. I'm sorry, but I've yet to see an argument from the other side do much more than point to 2011.

I'm not sure why you're so positive that no replacement could match AV's smarts and dedication. I follow this team pretty damn closely, and really I'm no more aware of Vigneault's dedication and passion off the ice than the day he was hired.

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05-08-2013, 10:49 PM
  #152
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Are there any more Paul Maclean's left somewhere? The man has made the sens a fighting machine.

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05-08-2013, 10:49 PM
  #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood Burrows View Post
I'll just say first that I don't think it's at all a sure thing that AV will be fired. I was disappointed by the coaching staff during this series, but still believe our problems have to do with personnel, not coaching.

Whoever Gillis hires to replace AV will almost certainly be an objectively worse coach than AV. AV haters have to acknowledge his track record of success. He will certainly be the #1 candidate for every other club looking to hire a coach. I think he would be an inspired choice to coach the Oilers, and I believe it's a real possibility. We have to admit to ourselves that a change may be at least partially motivated by a "breath of fresh air" mentality rather than trying to upgrade our coaching. This is a tough situation.

I find it highly unlikely that Guy Boucher or Dallas Eakins is a smarter, harder working, dedicated, or more innovative coach than Vigneault. It's just really, really unlikely. Unless we can somehow land an established, elite coach (basically Babcock, Quenneville, Bylsma, Tippet, Hitchcock, Sutter) we are quite likely downgrading our team in objective coaching ability. At the very least, a lesser/unknown hire represents a huge question mark. Combine a coaching change with an aging roster and we're almost certainly going to see a less successful club next season. Don't undervalue the stability AV brings to the team.

Change for change's sake, or change to appease media jackals, is a bush-league Edmonton-style move. If Aquillini forces a reluctant Gillis to fire AV to appease his yaletown cokeparty buddies, we are ****ed as a franchise.
Except, most of the recent Cup winners have involved 'downgrades' from the previous coach.

And a large number of the ones who were 'established' were early in their tenure with the team and replaced coaches with winning records.

2012 Kings - Sutter (established), 0.5 years with team, replaced Terry Murray who had a winning record.
2011 Bruins - Julien (established)
2010 Hawks - Quenneville (established), replaced Savard who had a winning record
2009 Pens - Bylsma (rookie), replaced Therrien who had a winning record
2008 Wings - Babcock (established)
2007 Ducks - Carlyle (2nd year total), replaced Babcock
2006 Canes - Laviolette (3rd year total), replaced Maurice

Look, NHL players are oversized children. Sometimes silly things like 'change for change's sake' that doesn't work in real life actually works on them.

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05-08-2013, 10:58 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
It's not "innovative" if you "stick to the plan" despite the opposition team effectively taking countermeasures.


Habs went thru a ton of injuries the season before he got canned and that reflected in their season that year. He didn't have a long leash the following season.
I was a Habs fan then - he had four full seasons in Montreal. None of them were particularly distinguished except for the first, which was only notable because they had a modicum of success and got back into the playoffs. Which wasn't a big deal in my opinion because literally anybody could be better than the previous year's debacle with Mario Tremblay (some of you may remember what happened that year with a certain star goalie).

He performed the same as the guy who came after him (Therrien) who didn't have all that much to work with either. He wasn't special, he was just another trap coach in the middle of a dead puck era full of trap coaches. All of the Mr. Gant rumours after he left didn't paint a pretty picture either.

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05-08-2013, 11:00 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by TheLastSedin View Post
Are there any more Paul Maclean's left somewhere? The man has made the sens a fighting machine.
True, but I bet that if he lasts there for 5+ years his message will start getting old too.

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05-08-2013, 11:14 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
Just to expand on your point.

"I wouldn't be pretentious enough to say I had that much impact, either positive or negative on an entire league," he said. "His comments were about the fact that some teams were playing the same defensive style that we had. The funny thing is my teams were always the No. 1 offensive teams. We were first in the league in junior in offense, the same last year in the American League (at Hamilton). This year we are the top team in the NHL. We spend 80 percent of our time working on offense. If you watch our practices you'll see, so that's all I'm focusing on."

-Guy Boucher when Roy accused him of making the QMJHL too defensive because of 1-3-1 copycats

Man that last sentence is music to my ears/eyes. Get this guy.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Unless we're going to allow for the possibility that the Sedins' abilities have, indeed, dropped off a cliff, Vigneault had two recent Art Ross winners, a guy who's scored 40, three who have put up 30+, plus a few 20+ goal scorers.

That group has looked offensively impotent the last two seasons. How much of that is AV, and how much is that on the players themselves? I suppose (hope) we'll find out next season.

Oh, I agree. AV has had a lot to work with. While I'm unsure if Boucher will be able to impact the Sedins' style too much, because it is so unique, he should be able to get the other pieces going. I don't expect the offense to be as poor as it has been.

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05-08-2013, 11:16 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
True, but I bet that if he lasts there for 5+ years his message will start getting old too.
But his stache will look even better.


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05-09-2013, 01:32 AM
  #158
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So...has he been fired yet?...I'm waiting.

He seemed to know it was coming too, the last few interviews seem to know his butt was in the line.

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05-09-2013, 01:37 AM
  #159
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I like AV, he was given a flawed roster to work with.

In 7 years he's had 6 playoff appearances, been to the second round 4 times, one cup final..

He started off coaching a pure defensive system because that's the roster he was given, then he changed to a fast paced offensive style, and unfortunately his GM did not give him what he needed to continue coaching a style that was working well.


He handles the media very well and could only use the players he had so it's hard to blame him for the lines and not liking some of the players Gillis brought in that flat out sucked.

I will wish him good luck wherever he goes but IMO Gillis should be fired and AV should stay.

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05-09-2013, 01:45 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I like AV, he was given a flawed roster to work with.

In 7 years he's had 6 playoff appearances, been to the second round 4 times, one cup final..

He started off coaching a pure defensive system because that's the roster he was given, then he changed to a fast paced offensive style, and unfortunately his GM did not give him what he needed to continue coaching a style that was working well.


He handles the media very well and could only use the players he had so it's hard to blame him for the lines and not liking some of the players Gillis brought in that flat out sucked.

I will wish him good luck wherever he goes but IMO Gillis should be fired and AV should stay.
We get it you blatantly hate MG and love AV. This has been shown over all the latest posts you have posted.

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05-09-2013, 01:48 AM
  #161
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i remember hearing/reading that coach a.v doesn't really give the team any pep talks at the intermission and whatnot. he leaves that to the players. the "supposed" leaders of the team to sort it out. just like when he takes a timeout. newell brown mostly talks. he just stands there.

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05-09-2013, 01:50 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by David71 View Post
i remember hearing/reading that coach a.v doesn't really give the team any pep talks at the intermission and whatnot. he leaves that to the players. the "supposed" leaders of the team to sort it out. just like when he takes a timeout. newell brown mostly talks. he just stands there.
Yeps. He doesn't know how to lead. Great systems coach just not suited for this team.

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05-09-2013, 01:50 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by The Kassian Train View Post
We get it you blatantly hate MG and love AV. This has been shown over all the latest posts you have posted.
I like how the coach who seemed to believe at least a few of his injured players were faking it, and mentioned that to the media, apparently "handles the media very well." Laughable.


Last edited by CanadianPirate: 05-09-2013 at 01:51 AM. Reason: didn't finish my point
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05-09-2013, 01:57 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by David71 View Post
i remember hearing/reading that coach a.v doesn't really give the team any pep talks at the intermission and whatnot. he leaves that to the players. the "supposed" leaders of the team to sort it out. just like when he takes a timeout. newell brown mostly talks. he just stands there.
Many teams do this. I've seen and remember Mike Babcock and Barry Trotz doing the same thing when they call a time out to draw up a play.

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05-09-2013, 02:06 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by opendoor View Post
Pretty classic scenario of a team playing reasonably well but losing due to a fatal flaw beyond the coach's control and a sprinkling of bad luck. Everyone knows how bad the goaltending was, but even with that they had a pretty respectable goal differential (+7 through 31 games) and were being dragged way down by a horrible 2-9-1 in 1 goal games.
Tampa Bay were a pretty poor possession team though, weren't they? Would you put that more on the system or poor personnel? Or (I suspect) is it too hard to say?


Last edited by vanuck: 05-09-2013 at 02:13 AM.
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05-09-2013, 02:14 AM
  #166
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I find it hilarious how MG is being blamed for the last two years when AV came out and flatout said he didn't have this team ready to play last year against the Kings without Daniel? 4th highest scoring team in the regular season.

In 2011, the Canucks had the highest scoring team in the regular season, yet when the finals roll around they get shut down. So magically this is MG's fault because the team suddenly can't score? Highest scoring team during the regular season.

Yeah that sure as hell sounds like it's MG's fault these two years.

Gasp what about this year you ask....sure there was a significant drop off but let us not forget we barely had a top 6 for much of the year...we were stuck playing the pesky 1 goal low scoring games.

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05-09-2013, 02:19 AM
  #167
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Originally Posted by PecaFan View Post
As pretty much the founder of the "Fire Vigneault" club years ago, it's gratifying to see so many of your joining.

So it saddens me to say this, but AV will not be fired. When things go poorly, first you fire the coach, then you fire the GM. So as the GM, the longer you keep the coach around the longer *you* stay around.

Gillis is going to say "Fire the coach? What for? Don't you remember 2011?" (when in fact AV cost us the Cup with his numerous bonehead moves).

It'll take a third straight choke or missing the playoffs before AV is gone. Unfortunately.
It's not as simple as Gillis not wanting to fire him just because he'll be next in the line of fire. When you look at all the issues we had this season with personnel management and coaching decisions - almost all of which carried over into the playoffs - there is valid reason to let him go. And that's not even getting into the issues with the system.

He was simply no longer an asset to this hockey team. In fact I might go so far as to say that his decisions and bench management actually made it harder for this team to win against San Jose.

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05-09-2013, 02:28 AM
  #168
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Originally Posted by PecaFan View Post
As pretty much the founder of the "Fire Vigneault" club years ago, it's gratifying to see so many of your joining.

So it saddens me to say this, but AV will not be fired. When things go poorly, first you fire the coach, then you fire the GM. So as the GM, the longer you keep the coach around the longer *you* stay around.

Gillis is going to say "Fire the coach? What for? Don't you remember 2011?" (when in fact AV cost us the Cup with his numerous bonehead moves).



It'll take a third straight choke or missing the playoffs before AV is gone. Unfortunately.

If you count the Chicago 3-0 lead to game 7 as a choke job (which I most certainly do) there have been five straight years of questionable results. I'd give Vinnie a pass on Chicago vs Vancouver Pt II, but that team was also soundly outcoached, and control of the team was lost. Chicago were rightful winners of the cup that year, but we made it far too easy on them.

Vinnie is a great regular season guy. He is absolute crap in the playoffs when the game moves way too fast for his plodding, annual strategy review.

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05-09-2013, 02:34 AM
  #169
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^ Not to mention the horrendous discipline that year too, even though Chicago was the superior team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I like AV, he was given a flawed roster to work with.

In 7 years he's had 6 playoff appearances, been to the second round 4 times, one cup final..

He started off coaching a pure defensive system because that's the roster he was given, then he changed to a fast paced offensive style, and unfortunately his GM did not give him what he needed to continue coaching a style that was working well.


He handles the media very well and could only use the players he had so it's hard to blame him for the lines and not liking some of the players Gillis brought in that flat out sucked.

I will wish him good luck wherever he goes but IMO Gillis should be fired and AV should stay.
I'll just leave this here, because I couldn't put it any better myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
Unless we're going to allow for the possibility that the Sedins' abilities have, indeed, dropped off a cliff, Vigneault had two recent Art Ross winners, a guy who's scored 40, three who have put up 30+, plus a few 20+ goal scorers.

That group has looked offensively impotent the last two seasons. How much of that is AV, and how much is that on the players themselves? I suppose (hope) we'll find out next season.

Bottom line: there's just too much talent here for them to be struggling offensively like this. We were relatively healthy this series too, and still only managed all of 8 goals in 4 games. Compare that to 8 in 5 against LA - an even better defensive team - last year when we were without Daniel to boot... which was our excuse for not scoring, wasn't it?

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05-09-2013, 02:52 AM
  #170
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i have a feeling we'll "watch" AV get another year
I think retaining AV would be bad for business.

Who feels like forking out hundreds of dollars to keep watching these guys play hockey for 20 or 40 minutes, then sleepwalk the rest? This is what you will be guaranteed if AV stays on board.

Weve seen the same nonsense for years now, and hes still doing stuff like playing an injured Bieksa for 27 minutes on a pairing with Edler. Its like pulling teeth watching this team sometimes.

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05-09-2013, 02:57 AM
  #171
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Originally Posted by Finkle is Einhorn View Post
I've seen many well-thought-out arguments as to why AV should be fired, using examples from specific games in addition to more overarching issues. I'm sorry, but I've yet to see an argument from the other side do much more than point to 2011.

I'm not sure why you're so positive that no replacement could match AV's smarts and dedication. I follow this team pretty damn closely, and really I'm no more aware of Vigneault's dedication and passion off the ice than the day he was hired.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mossey3535 View Post
He's a good coach - but to say that ANYONE we hire will be objectively worse is unfounded.
Exactly. All coaches have pretty much the same technical knowledge in their repertoire. Much like how almost every team runs some variation of the trap nowadays. It comes down to individual ability and smarts, and how much "risk" they're willing to take at certain moments to try and score a goal or ensure a win.

When it comes to offense I'm not sure you have to be able to completely understand the way the Sedins play - something that AV admittedly does not, though a lot of coaches would likely be stumped by it too - but when you can't even get the team to properly execute basic offensive plays, it's hard not to think that a guy like Boucher can be objectively better.

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05-09-2013, 02:59 AM
  #172
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Well, it wasn't AV who coughed up the puck in OT, misplayed a textbook 2 on 1, missed open nets, took bad penalties, was unable to control simple wrist shots (or even stop them at all). It wasn't him that failed to aquire legitamate scoring help for the last 2 seasons, but someone has to pay for the sins of others - I would hold Gillis closer to the fire than AV, but it is what it is.
Are we aware of deals that were offered to Gillis that he turned down? Were there players that changed hands that we should have been in on that moved to other teams? If not, pretty tough to criticize Gillis for not getting a deal done. Nonie and Burke let a missing Sedin linemate fester forever. At least Gillis was able to add players like Sundin, Roy and took a shot on Booth. That's far more than the dumpster diving for second round picks that Burke and Nonis did.
  • Gillis traded a very talented scoring center whose character Av assassinated (proven wrong). The best first rounder we'd had since Kesler, and some might argue he was further ahead at the same age. Av was unable or unwilling to manage the ice time requests of that player or his parent. How hard is it to say sit down shut up, bide your time and earn your minutes like the two guys ahead of you did? How hard is that? Why could we not have our third line be a scoring line instead of ditching Hodgson because he did not fit the mold of a third line center? We have a second line center who is a first line center on many teams in the NHL and can check with the best of them. Why did Hodgson have to be Malhotra? Our scoirng fell off when that trade was made and it has never recovered. And as a result of the myopic search for the prototypical third line center we got Sammy Pahlsson. I wonder if Hodgson would have been better or worse than Pahlsson.....hmmmm....let me think on that for a bit.....
  • The player Gillis got in return has not been developed by AV at all even though it was precisely the kind of player AV wanted after the Boston series. Hell we were in such a rush to get another power forward, yet Vinnie did not even use him in the playoffs last year. For the love of god why? I think Cody might have been a better bet.
  • Gillis gave up a Grabner as AV had no willingness to coach him into a player even though he was exactly the kind of player we'd end up needing in the series vs Boston (goal scorer).
  • Who'd we trade him for....well along with another first for a D-man he'd choose not to even use even when he was clearly the best option for the past two years. Instead of playing Ballard, this year we chose to burn a year of ELS on Corrado...a move which could end up costing the Canucks millions of dollars in the next two contract for that player as well as the cap flexibility in year three of his deal that we could clearly use. AV chose to scratch Ballard leading to that result. The Ballard story is not even over. Our GM is likely going to have to write a massive cheque to buy Ballard out instead of being able to move him for assets at a time when there are zero second pairing d-men available around the league. The market for D is tighter now than when we traded for Ballard. Someone else is going to sign him for 2 million per year and have a steal on their hands.
  • Schroeder, another former first was rarely selected to play minutes where he could be successful.
  • Instead of putting players like the aforementioned in the lineup to fight for minutes and develop, he instead would ice plugs that at some point he could not even stomach playing. What the hell is the point of icing Tanner Glass and the legions of Glass-like players for four minutes a game in the playoffs when your team is going to overtime every fourth game (or more). If they can't play, don't dress them.
And that's just how he has submarined every attempt Gillis made to help him. Should we go on to the other crap he pulled in his tenure here?
  • Shameful handling of Linden
  • Outcoached over and over and over again with zero ability to adapt to quickly changing situations in the playoffs. (It took him four games to figure out how to deal with Byfuglien in the crease for chrissakes - series over)
  • He lost control of his team three years in a row before the GM finally had to have a talk with the team about character and professionalism. That is the coach's job.
  • Playing Luongo 70 games a year (in the Nonis era)
  • Further to that point, asking the goalie if he wanted to come out of a game he clearly needed to be pulled in. Who does that?
  • Starting Lou in the last game of the season when the rest of the team was being rested and for what benefit?
  • Not having players like Hodgson inserted into the lineup before the start of the playoffs so that he could use them on the cup run instead of the nine injured players along with Rome and Glass that he did go with. We had a massive lead in the PT race that year. Why the hell did we not get some more guys (like Hodgson) some games?
  • Not being able to handle injuries like Daniels, when the rest of the team was totally healthy. Ask Paul McLean if he'd be able to handle the Canucks bad 'luck' going into last year's playoffs.
I literally could go on and on and on and on.....I'd really like to just copy and paste the massive lists others have.


Last edited by ginner classic: 05-09-2013 at 03:15 AM.
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05-09-2013, 03:18 AM
  #173
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Originally Posted by NugentHopkinsfan View Post
I like AV, he was given a flawed roster to work with.

In 7 years he's had 6 playoff appearances, been to the second round 4 times, one cup final..

He started off coaching a pure defensive system because that's the roster he was given, then he changed to a fast paced offensive style, and unfortunately his GM did not give him what he needed to continue coaching a style that was working well.


He handles the media very well and could only use the players he had so it's hard to blame him for the lines and not liking some of the players Gillis brought in that flat out sucked.

I will wish him good luck wherever he goes but IMO Gillis should be fired and AV should stay.
You don't win a Jack Adams unless you are a good coach in this league, and I agree that AV is a good coach. I also agree that the problems had more to do with personnel than coaching, and MG needs to shoulder some blame for personnel decisions. All GM's make mistakes here and there, you can't always project accurately how a player will perform. All GM's try to 'win' trades, so dealing is tough. However, the blame for poor special teams numbers usually falls on the coaching staff. It was puzzling to watch the PP numbers drop so precipitously from 2010-2011 to this season.

AV hasn't been getting the best results out of this group for the past season and a half really. Even though they won the PT in 2012, they were winning a lot of SO's and goaltending was bailing the team out in close, low scoring games. They haven't really looked good since Jan 2012.

I don't think the team necessarily has quit on him. I just think the players have heard it all before and have gotten complacent. How else do we explain their total lack of discipline? Yes, they got jobbed by the refs, but they put themselves in positions to be called at the worst possible times, with a PK that struggled mightily.

Does AV deserve to be fired? Probably not, considering he's coming off of 2 recent PT's, NW division title holders from 2008-2009 to 2012-2013, and a SCF appearance. He's probably earned some leeway. That said, I wouldn't be surprised if he takes the fall here, just for the sake of having a new voice in the room and to get rid of the complacency.

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05-09-2013, 03:23 AM
  #174
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Absolutely he deserves to be fired. His team has been embarrassed in the first two years in a row and have looked absolutely terrible for 1.5 years.

His leeway was letting him stay this year. He should have been fired immediately after the kings series.

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05-09-2013, 04:02 AM
  #175
solitary
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Gillis would be a fool to retain AV for next season. This team is in desperate need of a new coach and I hope Gillis is able to see that.

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