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Why does Gillis get a free Pass?

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Old
05-11-2013, 04:19 PM
  #176
Dado
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Originally Posted by Yossarian54 View Post
So your criticism of a particular decision made by Gillis is founded on an occurrence that took place after that decision was made?
No. I made that opinion (and reasons for it) known long before the series sweep.

The series sweep is confirmation of my pre-existing opinion.

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05-11-2013, 04:21 PM
  #177
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...he diverted to complaining about being swept...
I did not complain about being swept.

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05-11-2013, 06:46 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
And it ain't over yet.

I will agree Gillis put himself, or the team, in a tough position, by waiting for the right deal but I've always thought the draft/FA period will be the time he is moved.
Are we talking the 2012 draft/FA period, the 2013 draft/FA period or ...? I don't think Gillis knows.

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05-11-2013, 06:48 PM
  #179
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
So you are basing it on emotion rather than facts.
Funny how that "sweep" isn't a fact. You're talking in circles.

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05-11-2013, 06:51 PM
  #180
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Originally Posted by SgtToody View Post
Funny how that "sweep" isn't a fact. You're talking in circles.
"sweep" wasn't a part of the original discussion. Run along.

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05-11-2013, 06:56 PM
  #181
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Neither is the fact that we had Luongo for the playoffs when Schneider got injured. As in the butterfly effect, your assumption that Gillis wouldn't have acquired an adequate backup - there were a # of goalies available at the deadline - doesn't put much faith in the GMMG, considering you're defending his every move.

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05-11-2013, 07:04 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by SgtToody View Post
Neither is the fact that we had Luongo for the playoffs when Schneider got injured. As in the butterfly effect, your assumption that Gillis wouldn't have acquired an adequate backup - there were a # of goalies available at the deadline - doesn't put much faith in the GMMG, considering you're defending his every move.
Defending his every move? Care to find me some examples of me defending his every move? I like Gillis but he's far from blameless for our season(s) and I'm more than happy to pass criticism his way...however, saying he "completely screwed up the Luongo situation" is premature and based on no factual evidence.

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05-11-2013, 07:34 PM
  #183
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Anyone think that Gillis makes these decisions byhimself, really doesn't understand how decisions are made in a modern corporate environment.

"during his press conference on Thursday Gillis said: “Francesco (Aquilini), myself, and all of my support staff that will weigh in on what we’re going to do to move forward, but Francesco, he’s the chairman of this company, everything I do I discuss with him"

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Ga...#ixzz2T2A8sIUo

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05-11-2013, 07:41 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
Anyone think that Gillis makes these decisions byhimself, really doesn't understand how decisions are made in a modern corporate environment.

"during his press conference on Thursday Gillis said: “Francesco (Aquilini), myself, and all of my support staff that will weigh in on what we’re going to do to move forward, but Francesco, he’s the chairman of this company, everything I do I discuss with him"

Read more: http://www.theprovince.com/sports/Ga...#ixzz2T2A8sIUo
Somehow I don't think Aquilini's job is in jeopardy; unless there is something unseen in the divorce settlement. Yes, a few fingerprints are on the major hockey decisions but as GM the buck stopped there. Accountability still means something, doesn't it?

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05-11-2013, 07:43 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by SgtToody View Post
Somehow I don't think Aquilini's job is in jeopardy; unless there is something unseen in the divorce settlement. Yes, a few fingerprints are on the major hockey decisions but as GM the buck stopped there. Accountability still means something, doesn't it?
Apparently not with AV as the coach...unless you are Keith Ballard.

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05-11-2013, 07:48 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by SgtToody View Post
Somehow I don't think Aquilini's job is in jeopardy; unless there is something unseen in the divorce settlement. Yes, a few fingerprints are on the major hockey decisions but as GM the buck stopped there. Accountability still means something, doesn't it?
Of course it does. Right throughout the organization. And the recent presser emphasized that.

So what is it you are looking for?

Gillis to be fired?

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05-11-2013, 08:17 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by ddawg1950 View Post
Of course it does. Right throughout the organization. And the recent presser emphasized that.

So what is it you are looking for?

Gillis to be fired?

Finn clearly needs to go.

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05-11-2013, 08:23 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
We were just swept in the first round. How would getting assets for Luongo and playing Canata have resulted in a worse outcome?

Gillis has completely screwed up the Luongo situation, there's just no getting around that.
I think Gillis will get a better deal now then at the trade deadline. Maybe not as good as last offseason but I could see more teams enter the fray. Who knows. Maybe Gillis was told by a gm or that they'd would be interested in the offseason.

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05-11-2013, 09:23 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Barney Gumble View Post
Finn clearly needs to go.
Soup.

Oh, wait a sec...that joke was for San Jose.

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05-11-2013, 09:38 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
Defending his every move? Care to find me some examples of me defending his every move? I like Gillis but he's far from blameless for our season(s) and I'm more than happy to pass criticism his way...however, saying he "completely screwed up the Luongo situation" is premature and based on no factual evidence.
Obviously it's a situation that's hard to prove or disprove, but considering the way that this season ended, it's not hard to imagine that dealing with our goaltending situation at some point during the year would've been better than what we are now facing.

Two measly playoff games and the possibility of a huge Luongo buyout - or at the most a give away of a star player can't possibly sit well with Aqualini.

If I was Aqualini, I'd refuse any buyouts of Gillis' contracts and I'd give him one year to prove that keeping Schneider over Luongo was a good idea. If Schneider ***** the bed, it should cost Gillis his job.

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05-11-2013, 11:05 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by SiCKNESS View Post
Everyone is calling or AVs head and they'll most likely get it, but Gillis is the one who tryed to change the identity of the team after the 2011 Finals. He wanted the team to be more like the Bruins, when the core of our team wasn't suited to be.

- He gave most of this core NTC
-traded a promising star in Hodgson for someone who would fit his idea of what the team needs in Kassian at a bad time.
- Gave up 2 promising assets in Grabner + 1st for Ballard
- Signed Sturm and dealt him within same year.
- He signed Sundin to a 8M+ contract, which was garbage.
- Got too greedy on Luongo trade.

Yes he did trade for Ehrhoff, he did find Tanev, but the bad outweigh the good in my mind and he has handcuffed this team to having most of its core with NTCs, a core that hasn't been successful since 2011 and has giving up several of our good assets(Grabner, 1st, 2nds) for mediocore returns in Ballard, Roy and has wasted picks on overagers instead of signing them after the draft if they ended up being undrafted.
HODGSON-He asked to leave, he wanted size for the future. Look at our other prospects, we didn't have size/toughness. Kassian brought that, he reminds me a lot of what Bertuzzi was 10 years ago.

BALLARD-At the time, he was a Top 4 defenseman. Yeah it was a lopsided trade even then, but at the time, look at the forwards we had who had performed better than Grabner. Raymond had 25 goals that year, Samuelsson was still with the team and had 30 goals. Burr had 30, Kesler, 25 and both Sedins had 29. I felt it was okay at the time we trade him for Ballard. Defense was something we were lacking in at the time, and he moved to improve that. He thought that he'd get the production from Raymond again, unfortunately he didn't.

STURM-I didn't think he meshed well, we got Booth back and he was close to a 20 goal scorer last season. Pretty good job I'd say.

SUNDIN-Was an amazing asset, we had the cap space and he fit perfectly with Demitra and Kesler, not really mad about that

LOUNGO-All we've heard is rumors about what was offered, we don't know for sure. It's one thing to ask to much, but it's another to be low balled.

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05-11-2013, 11:06 PM
  #192
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how is there nobody with a hint of nuance in their opinion

hint: if you think all of moves he made are bad, you're stupid. if you think all of the moves he made were good, you're also stupid

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05-11-2013, 11:31 PM
  #193
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Gillis has made some bad moves like trading away Grabner for Ballard, failing to trade Luongo, etc. But he also made some good moves and got Higgins and Lapierre, signed some good depth players in Torres, Malhotra, etc.

IMO, I think we could give Gillis more time since I don't think he's been in this position of retooling before. This whole time, he's been simply trying to add players for the Cup run. I wanna see what he's capable of, if we are going to do some major changes.

This doesn't mean I am 100% sure he'll do well. I'm just saying that he should be given that opportunity. I can't see him getting fired before the coach anyway.

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05-12-2013, 02:51 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by Verviticus View Post
how is there nobody with a hint of nuance in their opinion

hint: if you think all of moves he made are bad, you're stupid. if you think all of the moves he made were good, you're also stupid
You are right. Gillis showed very good judgement when he saw David Backes as a player worth going out on a limb for; unfortunately StL matched. The SJ trade that brought Erhoff was excellent value. The Hodgson/Kassian swap will need a few more years to fully evaluate, however in the short-term we're lagging behind - whether or not Hodgson requested a deal, I doubt Buffalo's offer was the only one.
He overpaid for Ballard, especially considering he was in the market for Hamhuis nearly the same time; the Roy trade was OK but perhaps unexpectedly fell flat. The Booth trade was on the surface too good to turn down - no one could have predicted the injury/gong show he3'd become. Most of the good transactions happened in his first 2 years behind the desk, but I am less happy with the results - and his attitude of late (both GMMG and AV sound more and more as though they suffer a bunker mentality when talking to the local media)... I'm not pleased that he's tied up so much money on similar style defence men, and handed out no-trade contracts like candy on Halloween. Last but worst of all is the Luongo mess. Nuance, so close to being nuisance.

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05-12-2013, 10:20 AM
  #195
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"free pass" is obviously a misnomer, as many many have said in this thread.

but this is how i think the owners' decision making will play out: you don't fire the GM because he did a bad job, or because he made some mistakes, or to punish him for the underachieving team. those are all emotional decisions. you ask yourself, is he the right person going forward? does he understand the mistakes he made, and will he learn from his mistakes?

from my perspective, the biggest mistake was giving AV too much rope. to varying degrees, there was cause for firing AV at the end of '09, '10, between games 6 and 7 of the first round in '11 (admittedly, that would have been a ridiculously drastic move), at the end of last year, and of course also right now. in each instance except for this one (one hopes), he stuck with AV. more importantly, he let AV dictate to a too large degree how the personnel was used, often in the face of all common sense. which is to say, it's not a black and white and all the arguing back and forth between "AV sucks and is stupid, totally wasted his players" vs. "AV did what he could with the crappy, chokey players gillis gave him" is missing the point. the real reasons for the failures of the last five years is on both their hands. i don't think any of us believe anymore that AV will, is willing to, or can learn from his mistakes. yes, he got good results (regular season, and sometimes in the playoffs), but he didn't get the results we wanted; and i think it's become pretty clear that he doesn't have what it takes to get over that hump between good results and the stanley cup. but gillis? that's a real question.

now, a coach is supposed to have a large degree of autonomy from management, and should be allowed to use make his own judgment calls. too much meddling from the GM causes a toxic atmosphere for the team. but as a first time GM, gillis went too far in that direction. just look at what roy looked like when he got here, and what he looked like a month later. makes no sense. the question will be, whoever gets hired as our new coach (again, hopefully there will be a new one), will gillies do more to make sure they're on the same page? will the coach work with the personnel he's given and coach the team the way the GM has designed the team to play?

i don't know the answer to that question. but i think that's going to be a major talking point as gillis makes his presentation to francesco this week. if he's learned nothing from the last five years with AV, then yeah fire him. if he has a good plan going forward and has thought clearly about how to better manage his coach without interfering with the coach's effectiveness, then you weigh what happened the last five years against how you project he'll do in the next five and then make a decision.

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05-12-2013, 12:32 PM
  #196
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No free pass; the last two years are squarely on MG's shoulders.

The team's number one problem the last 2 seasons has been lack of scoring, particularly secondary scoring.

Collectively, trading Grabner, Hodgson, and Samuelsson (and Bernier and a 1st round pick) for Ballard, Booth, and Kassian essentially amounts in a net loss of 1 goal per game. This loss was not addressed through free agency or other avenues, either.

MG is a player agent, not a GM. He is good at negotiating contracts, but his drafting and his trading shows that he is a poor judge of talent. Fire him now before he gets desperate and ruins this team. Honestly, I would take Brian Burke over Mike Gillis, and that's not because I think Brian Burke is an especially good GM.


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05-12-2013, 08:57 PM
  #197
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Watching the Leafs on the brink of taking the Bruins to game 7 and the success of the Hawks makes me think that MG needs to mull over this whole idea of a changed landscape.

I hope he doesn't mess things up in the supposed retool that is coming up by focusing on getting big players. This team should still be built upon speed and skill. Getting size is never a bad idea but it shouldn't come at the expense of ability to skate, make plays and scoring goals.

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05-12-2013, 09:04 PM
  #198
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Watching the Leafs on the brink of taking the Bruins to game 7 and the success of the Hawks makes me think that MG needs to mull over this whole idea of a changed landscape.

I hope he doesn't mess things up in the supposed retool that is coming up by focusing on getting big players. This team should still be built upon speed and skill. Getting size is never a bad idea but it shouldn't come at the expense of ability to skate, make plays and scoring goals.
The Leafs are proving you can ice a hybrid of skill and size and make it work. Detroit outlasting Anaheim is showcasing the puck possession game is not quite dead yet. If they advance, I hope San Jose ousts LA just to further cement that anyone shouting from the hilltops "YOU NEED SIZE AND TOUGHNESS" is missing out.

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05-12-2013, 09:26 PM
  #199
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
but i think that's going to be a major talking point as gillis makes his presentation to francesco this week.
Aq: "Why is Luongo still here?"
MG: "I was surprised by the lockout."
Aq: "You're fired."

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05-12-2013, 09:32 PM
  #200
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post
Aq: "Why is Luongo still here?"
MG: "I was surprised by the lockout."
Aq: "You're fired."
Everyone since the trade deadline is saying how badly Gillis misplayed this situation, but lets be honest, did anyone expect Lui to actually go during the season? I really didn't. Most people if asked at the begining of the season would have said no, and did in the Luongo threads. But now that he hasn't been traded, all we hear is what a mistake.

Personally I will reserve judgement until he is traded, and even then who knows what other offers were out there. Maybe it is still the best deal he could have gotten at any point.

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