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NHL close to new Player Transfer Agreements, World Cup becoming more of a reality

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Old
05-13-2013, 01:33 PM
  #76
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Any action to prevent work force from moving is sort of frowned upon.
I'm not sure what you are talking about. It is perfectly legal to sign a contract without any out clause, a contract that would then need to be bought out.

If Finnish teams think it's worth it to agree to an out clause so that they can steal one player from their opponents then fine, but don't whine when it comes back to bite you.

Smaller football teams still manage to get paid by the top clubs, maybe the Finnish hockey owners should contact them and ask for advice.

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05-13-2013, 01:54 PM
  #77
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I agree with you. It is just a problem of finnish clubs that they agree with KHL out clauses. Why do Elitserien clubs get paid for Salak, Martensson, etc etc?

It is about power of domestic league, finnish is too weak.. their problem and I am sad for it.

It is just problem of all euro league/clubs that they agreed in early 90´s with this one-way (pro-NHL) system in which every player wants NHL out clause (now it is in PTA ) ... nowadays the players want KHL out clause. Yes, we can blame KHL, but this system was not created by KHL, KHL was not a subject which ageed with them. It was SM-Liiga, Elitserien, NLA, DEL, slovak and czech leagues and former RSL. This system was created in 90´s and now, with NHL´s power, can not be fixed ...

I am talking all the time, support KHL with its behaviour toward PTA and dometic leagues will get stronger and get paid. Not immidiatelly, but after 20-30 yrs for sure. If federations dont see that, it is their problem.

I would like to ask Jussi to stop complaining. If finnish and all clubs want to get paid, the system must be changed.. no PTA with NHL, no free out clauses.. like soccer/basket ... I dont say it is real, but I am sure it is only solution.

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05-13-2013, 02:18 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
I'm not sure what you are talking about. It is perfectly legal to sign a contract without any out clause, a contract that would then need to be bought out.

If Finnish teams think it's worth it to agree to an out clause so that they can steal one player from their opponents then fine, but don't whine when it comes back to bite you.

Smaller football teams still manage to get paid by the top clubs, maybe the Finnish hockey owners should contact them and ask for advice.
Hockey isn't football!! Completely different financial situations plus market.

What I meant was they stop from them from putting out-clauses and the players will demand them because they want to choose where they play. As for claming clubs are selfish, well of course they are. We can't all be like the KHL clubs who would never "steal" the best players from rival/smaller teams...oh wait.

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05-13-2013, 03:14 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Hockey isn't football!! Completely different financial situations plus market.
The financial situations plus market are not very different at all. In both sports there are contracted players leaving small European teams to join bigger European teams.

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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
What I meant was they stop from them from putting out-clauses and the players will demand them because they want to choose where they play.
I have to admit I can't make any sense of that sentence.

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Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
As for claming clubs are selfish, well of course they are. We can't all be like the KHL clubs who would never "steal" the best players from rival/smaller teams...oh wait.
I have no idea why you insist on bringing the KHL into this or who it is that they "stole", but in any case it does not have any relevance to the situation in Finland.

I'm not claiming the clubs are selfish. I say they are stupid. If anything I wish they would be more selfish and realise their own interest is to not offer out clauses because, contrary to what you seem to be implying, the KHL has always paid big money when they needed to, and continue to do so.

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05-13-2013, 04:48 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
The financial situations plus market are not very different at all. In both sports there are contracted players leaving small European teams to join bigger European teams.


I have to admit I can't make any sense of that sentence.

Except there's far less movement of players, less leagues(=less competition for players) and above else, far less money involved because hockey is a small sport in Europe.

I have to admit I have no idea what your point was either. My point was that the out clauses are there because the agents want them and there's nothing the clubs can do about them because they have to get players.

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05-13-2013, 05:23 PM
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
Except there's far less movement of players, less leagues(=less competition for players) and above else, far less money involved because hockey is a small sport in Europe.
Which merely means that transfer fees are smaller in hockey. That does not even begin to explain why Finnish hockey clubs can no longer get paid the transfer fees that they used to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jussi View Post
I have to admit I have no idea what your point was either. My point was that the out clauses are there because the agents want them and there's nothing the clubs can do about them because they have to get players.
Of course there is: not having them in contracts is what they could do.

Smaller football teams still manage to get paid by the top clubs, maybe the Finnish hockey owners should contact them and ask for advice.

Other than the actual amount of the fee, there's no significant difference between hockey and football leagues that would make it impossible for Finnish hockey teams to get paid transfer money. Indeed comparable hockey leagues are getting paid transfer money.

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05-13-2013, 07:57 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Which merely means that transfer fees are smaller in hockey. That does not even begin to explain why Finnish hockey clubs can no longer get paid the transfer fees that they used to.
No one is getting paid big transfer money anymore, not even in Sweden. I think the biggest were for Jarkko Immonen and Petri Vehanen at 800-900K euro but they dropped down to a third. The only players that can fetch that kind of money are the foreign players that didn't have previous interest from KHL or players having a career season(like Ramstedt, and he's probably heading back next season). There's also no one worth that money in Finland anymore, they're all playing abroad already.

Not having a KHL clause in the contract is not an option also because the market for domestic players is also fairly dry. Once again, players hold the cards. Do you really think KHL clubs would agree to not have NHL clauses in any contract?

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05-14-2013, 03:49 AM
  #83
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Do you really think KHL clubs would agree to not have NHL clauses in any contract?
Again, agian and again. KHL contracts does not have NHL clauses. Quoted part is not true.

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05-14-2013, 04:42 AM
  #84
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KHL contracts DO have NHL clauses, Jori Lehterä had one throughout his Sibir contract. He would have left to NA a year ago if not for that big injury. He wanted one full healthy season under him. He said it himself in interviews: http://www.aamulehti.fi/Kiekko/11947...tka+osaa+.html

Quote:
Tapparassa itsensä Suomen ja SM-liigan huipulle pelannut, Espoossa syntynyt 24-vuotias hyökkääjä Jori Lehterä teki kesällä Sibirin kanssa uuden kahden vuoden sopimuksen. Sopimuksessa on NHL-optio tulevan kauden jälkeen eli ensi kesänä hänellä on mahdollisuus siirtyä NHL-kuvioihin.
Translation for the bolded part: Contract has an NHL option after the upcoming season which means next summer (aka this summer) he has the option to move to NHL.


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05-14-2013, 05:17 AM
  #85
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Just want to add that KHL contracts does not have NHL clauses, but media seems to inform that they have. Dont believe them. Do you want example?? Ok, slovak media informed that Janus was obligated to move from Slovan to Lokomotiv after this season, because Loko had his rights as drafted player. Look at rosters and you find out that is a nonsense. The same as NHL clauses in KHL contracts. And ppl on this board cas say whatever they want.

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05-14-2013, 08:37 AM
  #86
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KHL refused PTA... what did I say you a few days earlier?

google
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Since its inception, the KHL has established itself as an equal partner in matters of NHL players transitions. Concluded two years ago, an agreement on mutual recognition of the existing contracts League performed by both parties. This is a great achievement KHL, fundamentally changed the relationship with the NHL, to put barriers in the way of departure overseas players with existing contracts with the clubs of the League. For the duration of the aforementioned agreement was not a single case of a hockey player out the current contract. But back in 2008 due to lack of agreement with the NHL, the Russian clubs have lost nearly three dozen players who had at the time of the contract. Established relationship between the leagues are unique, and none of the European leagues do not have such an agreement. The existing agreement acknowledges the equal importance of contracts in both leagues - KHL and the NHL.

Promoted FHR proposal made by the European NHL hockey leagues and federations, is a step backwards. The agreement gives the right to take any European NHL player with a contract for a fixed fee. The agreement, in fact, recognizes the hegemony of the NHL and European hockey players said the nullity of contracts in European hockey leagues. It is obvious that the KHL is a pattern of interaction is unacceptable, and taking into account existing contractual relationship with the NHL can not even be discussed.

Claiming offers financial benefits of the NHL and the "lost profits", FHR openly manipulates figures. There was a decade ago, such a proposal, which Russia could take and get to date 25 million U.S. dollars. As there were a hundred who left adult players. But quite obvious and documented is the sum of expenditures for salaries of Russian clubs and players to prepare them for playing for the Russian national team at the World Championships and Olympic Games. According to conservative estimates, over the years the NHL, this amount is 43 billion (!) Rubles, or by using the referenced FHR currency more than 1.3 billion dollars.

Indeed the actual problem is the outflow of the Russian hockey in North American minor league hockey juniors, that is, players under the age of 18, is not yet concluded contracts with professional clubs KHL. These players have contracts juniors and are under the jurisdiction of FHR. Schools, brought up players when they do not get out of compensation and KHL clubs do not receive an influx of young players in the right amount. It seems that this particular issue should be the subject of active attention of FHR and the subject of her talks with the IIHF Ice Hockey Federation and the United States and Canada, under the jurisdiction of which work overseas minor hockey league.
http://www.khl.ru/news/2013/05/14/139356.html

I recommend Finns/Swedes (not all) to read red part and think about it a little bit.


Last edited by vorky: 05-14-2013 at 09:02 AM.
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05-14-2013, 09:05 AM
  #87
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
KHL refused PTA... what did I say you a few days earlier?
Was there an announcement? I didn't see anything on the web yet. The RHF (KHL) are fully entitled not to sign I just wonder if they don't if it will have an impact on whether or not the NHL goes to Sochi. The NHL says it is a separate issue but behind closed doors the NHL probably sees them tied together.

One thing I was hoping those who know more about the KHL could answer is how the relationship between the national federations and the leagues works in Europe. I believe that all of the domestic leagues fall under the jurisdiction of their respective national federation, so if I understand correctly this agreement would be between the NHL and each national federation. Does the RHF represent the KHL in these negotiations? If so what about the KHL teams who are not in Russia? Are they bound by any agreement the RHF signs?

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05-14-2013, 09:48 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Mr Kanadensisk View Post
Does the RHF represent the KHL in these negotiations?
No

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If so what about the KHL teams who are not in Russia? Are they bound by any agreement the RHF signs?
Dont know, but I would say no.

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05-14-2013, 03:40 PM
  #89
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If it were to be staged every 4 years alternating 2 years with the winter olympics then hells yea it would be. The NHL and IIHF had a chance to make the IIHF World Cup the pre-eminent hockey tournament but they effed up by not having a 2000 edition of the tournament, and nothing in 2008 or 20012. The 1996 IIHF World Cup was one of the greatest hockey tournaments ever.
The World Cup is not an IIHF event, it is a glorified NHL exhibition/all-star event.

And the only reason 1996 was interesting at all was because NHLers hadn't started participating in the Olympics yet. It is now redundant and unnecessary. The tournament was a failure in 2004 and only happened to put some extra money in the lockout war chests anyway.

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05-14-2013, 05:09 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Two way transfer system is a fair system.

Okay when will all the European Hockey Federations or teams (depending on how the deal is structured)start paying developmental fees for all the Canadian and American players who play for European hockey teams? Canada and the USA minor hockey associations developed them yet European teams and leagues are getting the benefit of their talent without paying anything. Canadian and American minor hockey looks the other way.

The KHL is looking for compensation for lost assets.

Then they should enter the open market for hockey assets just like the WHA did and replenish or expand their asset base. The KHL is allowed to compete to sign the likes of Seth Jones, Nathan Mackinnon, Jonathan Drouin and other NA juniors just like the WHA did. The KHL can also compete for all the upcoming NHL free agents. All this is possible without paying any transfer or developmental fees.
Why should European leagues pay a transfer fee (aka development costs, whatever) for N.A. free agents? The NHL doesn't for Europeans. The CHL doesn't for European FAs.
The rest of your post is irrelevant to the topic.

Until the NHL abides by a 2-way transfer deal...or at the very least allows its teams the option to sell contracted players to other leagues, it's not a fair 2-way free trade system.

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05-14-2013, 05:53 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by EbencoyE View Post
The World Cup is not an IIHF event, it is a glorified NHL exhibition/all-star event.

And the only reason 1996 was interesting at all was because NHLers hadn't started participating in the Olympics yet. It is now redundant and unnecessary. The tournament was a failure in 2004 and only happened to put some extra money in the lockout war chests anyway.
So you are saying it was a failure that earned quite a bit of money?

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05-14-2013, 07:38 PM
  #92
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Free Agents

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
Why should European leagues pay a transfer fee (aka development costs, whatever) for N.A. free agents? The NHL doesn't for Europeans. The CHL doesn't for European FAs.
The rest of your post is irrelevant to the topic.

Until the NHL abides by a 2-way transfer deal...or at the very least allows its teams the option to sell contracted players to other leagues, it's not a fair 2-way free trade system.
Seems the bracketed part of my post (depending on how the deal is structured) was not considered. Specifically the deal could be structured to include free agents or not. Federation or league-KHL choice. But choose wisely since there are consequences to each option.

Exclude free agents and European hockey becomes a career extension destination for NA players like Marty Dallman types, better paying job then joining the labour force in NA. NA still remains a hockey career opportunity for U20 Europeans - Alexander Avtsin. But Avtsin did not choose wisely. Took the AHL route over the CHL route. As long as CHL eligible Canadian and American free agents are not going to European teams the Europe is shorting its future.

See the bolded. Fundamental problem with your suggestion is that the NHLPA will not even consider the idea of selling contracted NHL players to European teams or leagues. Each NHL team would love to sell a number of their contracts to anyone outside the league. However there are two major problems.

NHL players have the right to "no movement clauses" in their contract - listing places they cannot be moved to during the life of their NHL contract.Will countries become such non desirable destinations?

Is the purchasing league or club willing to guarantee the rest of the contract or the new contract that derives from the sale? NHL contracts are guaranteed. KHL, SEL, etc, will they guarantee such contracts? Unless the contracts transacted come with identical or better guarantees then existing NHL contracts the NHLPA will never accept to participate.

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05-14-2013, 08:23 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Seems the bracketed part of my post (depending on how the deal is structured) was not considered. Specifically the deal could be structured to include free agents or not. Federation or league-KHL choice. But choose wisely since there are consequences to each option.

Exclude free agents and European hockey becomes a career extension destination for NA players like Marty Dallman types, better paying job then joining the labour force in NA. NA still remains a hockey career opportunity for U20 Europeans - Alexander Avtsin. But Avtsin did not choose wisely. Took the AHL route over the CHL route. As long as CHL eligible Canadian and American free agents are not going to European teams the Europe is shorting its future.

See the bolded. Fundamental problem with your suggestion is that the NHLPA will not even consider the idea of selling contracted NHL players to European teams or leagues. Each NHL team would love to sell a number of their contracts to anyone outside the league. However there are two major problems.

NHL players have the right to "no movement clauses" in their contract - listing places they cannot be moved to during the life of their NHL contract.Will countries become such non desirable destinations?

Is the purchasing league or club willing to guarantee the rest of the contract or the new contract that derives from the sale? NHL contracts are guaranteed. KHL, SEL, etc, will they guarantee such contracts? Unless the contracts transacted come with identical or better guarantees then existing NHL contracts the NHLPA will never accept to participate.

You have the right stick, but the wrong end.

Intra-NHL "no movement clauses" is irrelevant. This is a discussion of inter-league transfer deals....hence it relates to the current transfer deal structure and a contracted player's rights to transfer leagues vs a team's willingness and/or means to give up (i.e. 'sell') that player.
A team unilaterally selling a player to another league without consent was never (nor has it ever been) part of the discussion, nor do I think has ever happened, nor do I think is even legal. So potential NHLPA concerns are unfounded.

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05-14-2013, 08:31 PM
  #94
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A world cup seems to ppoint to the end of nhl and the olympics. Good time to break anyway.

Compete in Sochi then go to world cups as the premier tourny, The olympics should be under 23 like they do in soccer.

Besides, 2018 is in korea, 2014 is a good time to end, Go to a world cup every 4 years set up as an actual world cup not an nhl invitational.

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05-14-2013, 09:12 PM
  #95
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Lessons of History

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
You have the right stick, but the wrong end.

Intra-NHL "no movement clauses" is irrelevant. This is a discussion of inter-league transfer deals....hence it relates to the current transfer deal structure and a contracted player's rights to transfer leagues vs a team's willingness and/or means to give up (i.e. 'sell') that player.
A team unilaterally selling a player to another league without consent was never (nor has it ever been) part of the discussion, nor do I think has ever happened, nor do I think is even legal. So potential NHLPA concerns are unfounded.
Sadly your point - bolded, is incorrect.Pro teams used to regularly sell players to other teams in other leagues without the consent of the players before the NHLPA became a force. The result trickled down to the minor NA leagues. Provided appropriate links up thread.Today there are appropriate checks and balances

Today, given the working relationships between the NHL and the AHL this is still possible if teams follow the CBA rules and procedures.

Years ago an AHL team could buy a player from an NHL team's extended roster. Today the NHL team buys the player from the NHL for their AHL affiliate with the same result.

Perfectly legal as long as the CBA rules and procedures are followed.

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05-14-2013, 09:32 PM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Sadly your point - bolded, is incorrect.Pro teams used to regularly sell players to other teams in other leagues without the consent of the players before the NHLPA became a force. The result trickled down to the minor NA leagues. Provided appropriate links up thread.Today there are appropriate checks and balances

Today, given the working relationships between the NHL and the AHL this is still possible if teams follow the CBA rules and procedures.

Years ago an AHL team could buy a player from an NHL team's extended roster. Today the NHL team buys the player from the NHL for their AHL affiliate with the same result.

Perfectly legal as long as the CBA rules and procedures are followed.
......and what exactly does that have to do with the NHL/European transfer agreement? Nothing.

The fact that years ago players could be sold to affiliated NHL leagues is irrelevant. There is no precedent for the same with the NHL and a European league (they are non-affiliated), nor has it ever occurred, nor would it even be enforceable or legal.

In short, your argument is a red herring.

This discussion is about releasing a player from their existing contract for $$ compensation (aka selling a player).


Last edited by Zine: 05-14-2013 at 10:06 PM.
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05-14-2013, 10:19 PM
  #97
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Cristobal Huet Loaned

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Originally Posted by Zine View Post
......and what exactly does that have to do with the NHL/European transfer agreement? Nothing.

The fact that years ago players could be sold to affiliated NHL leagues is irrelevant. There is no precedent for the same with the NHL and a European league (they are non-affiliated), nor has it ever occurred, nor would it even be enforceable or legal.

In short, your argument is a red herring.
Suggest that the Cristobal Huet loan by Chicago to a Swiss team, Fribourg-Gottoren, contradicts your bolded statement on all levels:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...uet-hawks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristobal_Huet

Then you have the Nikita Filiatov situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Filatov

which also contradicts your bolded statement on all levels.

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05-14-2013, 10:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Suggest that the Cristobal Huet loan by Chicago to a Swiss team, Fribourg-Gottoren, contradicts your bolded statement on all levels:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...uet-hawks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristobal_Huet

Then you have the Nikita Filiatov situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Filatov

which also contradicts your bolded statement on all levels.
Both Huet & Filitov were loaned with the players consent.

A player cannot be loaned without their consent to any League other than the AHL or ECHL (ELS players only).

And when loaned to a Euro team, the players are still under NHL contract and receive their NHL salary and the NHL team is responsible for paying the players salary - although the Euro team may reimburse the NHL team for all or part of that salary.

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05-14-2013, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Suggest that the Cristobal Huet loan by Chicago to a Swiss team, Fribourg-Gottoren, contradicts your bolded statement on all levels:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/stor...uet-hawks.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cristobal_Huet

Then you have the Nikita Filiatov situation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikita_Filatov

which also contradicts your bolded statement on all levels.

These players were loaned to their respective European clubs with the consent of the player. Happens all the time.
The KHL even loaned Maxim Kitsyn to the CHL.

In no way is it comparable to selling $$ a player (inter-league) without consent of player. That would be 100% illegal and unenforceable.


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05-14-2013, 10:49 PM
  #100
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Assigned

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Originally Posted by kdb209 View Post
Both Huet & Filitov were loaned with the players consent.

A player cannot be loaned without their consent to any League other than the AHL or ECHL (ELS players only).

And when loaned to a Euro team, the players are still under NHL contract and receive their NHL salary and the NHL team is responsible for paying the players salary - although the Euro team may reimburse the NHL team for all or part of that salary.
NHL teams do not loan players to their AHL/ECHL affiliate. Subject to appropriate CBA regulations and procedures a player cannot refuse an assignment to an AHL or ECHL team and continue to draw a salary. Filiatov did not want to accept an AHL assignment.

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