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NHL close to new Player Transfer Agreements, World Cup becoming more of a reality

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Old
05-14-2013, 11:06 PM
  #101
pensman89
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Forgive me if this has been discussed, but would this "World Cup" be an international tournament run by the NHL, with NHL rules, rink size, etc?

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05-14-2013, 11:37 PM
  #102
Canadiens1958
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Suggestion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
These players were loaned to their respective European clubs with the consent of the player. Happens all the time.
The KHL even loaned Maxim Kitsyn to the CHL.

In no way is it comparable to selling $$ a player (inter-league) without consent of player. That would be 100% illegal and unenforceable.
Suggestion.

Trace the movement of Maxim Kitsyn to the CHL. He was loaned from the KHL to Eugene Melnyk's OHL team:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...ls_majors.html

Followed by the movement of Nikita Filatov from Ottawa via Binghamton to the KHL from Eugene Melnyk's NHL team's organization.

Seems remarkably similar to the "future considerations" transactions across leagues, teams, organizations of years past.

Call it a loan, a sale, a trade or a transfer there are ways around the consent issue just as there are ways around all player movement issues. Free agent or not it does not matter. The inconveniences may be sidestepped.

The core issue is the manipulation of player assets to gain a roster advantage.

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05-14-2013, 11:41 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
NHL teams do not loan players to their AHL/ECHL affiliate. Subject to appropriate CBA regulations and procedures a player cannot refuse an assignment to an AHL or ECHL team and continue to draw a salary. Filiatov did not want to accept an AHL assignment.
Teams most certainly do loan players to their AHL/ECHL affiliates. Any players playing in the AHL/ECHL on NHL SPCs are considered Loaned.

Loaned players receive their NHL salary if on a one-way SPC or a specified minor league salary if on a two-way SPC.

Players (other than those with NMCs) may be loaned to an AHL club without their consent.

Only ELS players may be loaned to ECHL teams without consent.

A player cannot be loaned to any other Leagues without their consent.

A player can be suspended w/o pay if they refuse to report when loaned to an AHL or ECHL (ELS player only) team - but they cannot be suspended for refusing to report to any other League.

Filatov could have been suspended w/o pay for refusing to report to an AHL team, but he could not have been loaned to a Euro team without his consent.

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05-15-2013, 01:30 AM
  #104
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Again, now better english, not google.

KHL´ statements

Quote:
Cui bono? KHL issues response to RIHF proposal

From the moment of its inception, the Kontinental Hockey League has established itself as an equal partner with the National Hockey League in matters of player transfers. The Memorandum of Understanding signed two years ago to respect existing players’ contracts in each other’s leagues has been impeccably observed by both parties. This was a considerable achievement by the KHL, involving a fundamental change in its relationship with the NHL and preventing an exodus to North America of players who had existing contracts with KHL clubs. Since the signing of the above agreement there has not been a single instance of a player breaking the terms of his contract to pursue his career overseas, whereas in 2008 alone, due to the absence of such an agreement, Russian clubs lost the services of more than two dozen players who were nonetheless under contract. The relationship between the KHL and NHL is unique; nothing of its kind exists among any of the European leagues. The existing agreement acknowledges the equal validity of contracts in both leagues.

The proposal put forward by the Russian Ice Hockey Federation (RIHF) and European hockey leagues on behalf of the NHL would be a backward step. The agreement would grant the NHL the right to sign any European player – even one with an existing contract - for a set fee. Such an agreement would amount to an acceptance of NHL hegemony over European hockey and would undermine the validity of players’ contracts in the European hockey leagues. For the KHL such a plan is clearly unacceptable, and furthermore, in view of the existing contractual relationship with the NHL, the League sees no reason to even discuss the proposal.

In claiming that the NHL proposal offers financial benefits, and that the absence of such a plan has led to "missed profits," the RIHF is blatantly manipulating the figures. Had a similar proposal been accepted a decade ago, Russia may well have received to date a sum of 25 million USD, as around one hundred adult players have indeed left the country. However, there has also been the obvious and easily-documented expenditure by Russian clubs on the salaries of these players and their preparation for the Russian national team for the World Championships and Olympic Games. According to conservative estimates, over the five years of the KHL’s existence, this adds up to 43 billion (!) rubles, or in the RIHF’s preferred currency, more than $1.3 billion.

Indeed the real problem facing Russian hockey is the flood of juniors (i.e. players aged 18 or under who have not signed professional contract with any KHL club) to minor leagues in North America. These players find themselves on junior contracts and under the jurisdiction of the RIHF, yet the hockey schools who had nurtured these athletes until their departure do not receive any compensation, and KHL clubs are faced with a depleted pool of talented young players to add to their rosters.

One would imagine that this is the kind of problem which should be the object of the RIHF’s undivided attention, and the subject of that organization’s discussions with the IIHF and the Canadian and US hockey federations, under whose jurisdictions the North America minor leagues operate.
http://en.khl.ru/news/2013/5/14/25154.html

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05-15-2013, 01:50 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Suggestion.

Trace the movement of Maxim Kitsyn to the CHL. He was loaned from the KHL to Eugene Melnyk's OHL team:

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hockey...ls_majors.html

Followed by the movement of Nikita Filatov from Ottawa via Binghamton to the KHL from Eugene Melnyk's NHL team's organization.

Seems remarkably similar to the "future considerations" transactions across leagues, teams, organizations of years past.

Call it a loan, a sale, a trade or a transfer there are ways around the consent issue just as there are ways around all player movement issues. Free agent or not it does not matter. The inconveniences may be sidestepped.

The core issue is the manipulation of player assets to gain a roster advantage.
And how does this nullify anything I've said?

Regardless of who initiated (or was responsible) for the action, these are legal loans with the player's consent.
Every example you've presented has been consistent with a loan, not a sale or transfer.

At this point, you're just arguing semantics.

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05-15-2013, 02:36 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Ok, but without euro nations.
All NHL players would have to play.

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05-15-2013, 04:01 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Sadly your point - bolded, is incorrect.Pro teams used to regularly sell players to other teams in other leagues without the consent of the players before the NHLPA became a force. The result trickled down to the minor NA leagues. Provided appropriate links up thread.Today there are appropriate checks and balances.
Why in the world would a European club spend 200K to buy out an NHL contract if the player is not going to report? Of course they're going to make sure they have the player's consent first.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Call it a loan, a sale, a trade or a transfer there are ways around the consent issue just as there are ways around all player movement issues.
When you're loaned, you're still getting paid by your original employer by the exact terms of the contract that you signed, so it is completely different from a buyout and, as such, has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion regarding a possible 2-way transfer agreement between the NHL and European leagues.

Indeed as you noted yourself citing Huet, NHL teams already have every possibility to loan a player to a European club with the player's consent, this without the transfer agreement being 2-way.

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05-15-2013, 04:43 AM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
All NHL players would have to play.
NHL players have refused to play in the Canada Cup/World Cup before, so I really doubt it.

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05-15-2013, 08:12 AM
  #109
Canadiens1958
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Reality

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zine View Post
And how does this nullify anything I've said?

Regardless of who initiated (or was responsible) for the action, these are legal loans with the player's consent.
Every example you've presented has been consistent with a loan, not a sale or transfer.

At this point, you're just arguing semantics.
Just recognizing the reality and history of agreements. The moment they are signed, all sides activate ways of working around the agreement to their advantage.

This phenomena has been illustrated by examples - Huet, Filatov, cited as counters to your "never happened" position.

As for the RIHF and KHL deleted talent pool position - junior players going to the CHL, there is a simple situation. Make it more attractive for such players to stay in Russia and develop their hockey skills. This means pay them accordingly and provide other advantages instead of blaming Canadian and USA hockey for a situation that is of Russian origin.

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05-15-2013, 08:31 AM
  #110
Canadiens1958
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Payments

Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
Why in the world would a European club spend 200K to buy out an NHL contract if the player is not going to report? Of course they're going to make sure they have the player's consent first.


When you're loaned, you're still getting paid by your original employer by the exact terms of the contract that you signed, so it is completely different from a buyout and, as such, has no relevance whatsoever to the discussion regarding a possible 2-way transfer agreement between the NHL and European leagues.

Indeed as you noted yourself citing Huet, NHL teams already have every possibility to loan a player to a European club with the player's consent, this without the transfer agreement being 2-way.
Bolded. Not how it works or would work. Payment would be split by percentage. Part upon reporting, other parts at various stages as the player's consent is sustained thru the life of the contract.

As for the loan aspect second paragraph, suggest you look at various loan transfer agreements involving leagues with salary caps.in place. Otherwise both the NHL and KHL will have problems with teams using the loan of players to circumvent the salary cap in each league.

Huet happened during the last CBA.

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05-15-2013, 09:01 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Bolded. Not how it works or would work. Payment would be split by percentage. Part upon reporting, other parts at various stages as the player's consent is sustained thru the life of the contract.
Your contention was that the NHLPA would not accept a player getting transfered against his will.

No team in Europe will be wanting to pay a transfer fee to get a player against his will.

Therefore no player will get transfered against his will.

Whether the payment or lack thereof would have to be split or not makes no difference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
As for the loan aspect second paragraph, suggest you look at various loan transfer agreements involving leagues with salary caps.in place. Otherwise both the NHL and KHL will have problems with teams using the loan of players to circumvent the salary cap in each league.

Huet happened during the last CBA.
The discussion is about transfers/buyouts/sales. Loans have no relevance here.

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05-15-2013, 03:44 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Just recognizing the reality and history of agreements. The moment they are signed, all sides activate ways of working around the agreement to their advantage.

This phenomena has been illustrated by examples - Huet, Filatov, cited as counters to your "never happened" position.

As for the RIHF and KHL deleted talent pool position - junior players going to the CHL, there is a simple situation. Make it more attractive for such players to stay in Russia and develop their hockey skills. This means pay them accordingly and provide other advantages instead of blaming Canadian and USA hockey for a situation that is of Russian origin.

The topic of inter-league loans is a straw man.....has nothing to do with transfer agreement sales/purchases/etc. Regardless, legal player consent must always be given for loans.

A player has never been sold to a non-affiliated (Europe/NA) league without player's consent. It would make no sense for a team to do so.

Your contention that the NHLPA would not accept said transfer scenario is unfounded.


Last edited by Zine: 05-15-2013 at 08:00 PM.
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07-14-2013, 08:23 AM
  #113
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Did Switzerland sign this PTA? Suri case says NO?

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07-16-2013, 08:22 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Did Switzerland sign this PTA? Suri case says NO?
Switzerland hasn't signed that PTA. The only ways players from our leagues can be traded/moved to the NHL are:

1) They are without contract.
2) There is a "NHL out clause" in the contract, which defines all the circumstances for a trade into the NHL. Has to be signed by both, the player and the team.

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07-16-2013, 10:13 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
That means NHL is ready to individual negotiations club-club about transfer fee?
No, I think it means they are meeting with the Russian Hockey Federation both alone or as part of meetings that include federations from multiple countries.

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07-16-2013, 12:11 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by cutchemist42 View Post
Can we please stop this World Cup nonsense, it's not a proper international tournament.......
The one held in Alberta in 2004 was some of the best hockey I've seen. How is it not a proper tournament? Because some of the bottom teams were not invited?

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07-16-2013, 12:34 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont care how euro NHLers use their money, their problem. I care only about transfer fee which is unfair.
You still haven't explained why it's unfair.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If NHL can not afford to pay more, I like this model from NBA
So you think Kovy should have had to buy his release from New Jersey to go play in Russia? He had 77m left over 12 years. So what does he or St Petersburg owe New Jersey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jekoh View Post
It is always amusing to see NHL fans argue that the NHL should be able to sign players left and right for nothing, yet they're up in arms when Radulov does just that and goes to Ufa, or when locked out players so much as ponder if they should finish the season in the KHL should the lock-out come to an end mid-season.
My only issue is when a player is under contract to a league and then leaves. Radulov or Kovalchuk. If the player isn't under contract, then I don't really have an issue with players moving from one league to another (see Jagr ~5 years ago when he went east to play).

Do I think that leagues should be paid some sort of fee for their efforts in developing a player? Yes. However this talk of 500k or a million depending on where the player is drafted is insane. That's not based on how much effort the team put into the player, but how gifted the player was that they acquired. Other than paying based on how many players drafted, I'm not sure what other reasonable and viable options there are.

Negotiating with individual clubs is NOT the answer. Transfer fees like we see in football is asinine, and would not bode well for the parity that the league is trying to achieve. Nor would we see clubs looking for compensation for their development efforts... but compensation for the loss of an asset... which isn't right.


Last edited by Riptide: 07-16-2013 at 02:57 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old
07-16-2013, 12:49 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
Only fair model is to pay the sum which euro clubs want. If they want 1 mil. USD per player, so no problem, pay it. If NHL does not have money, so wait until guy is RFA/UFA - until he is 28 y old or so. Any problem?
How is that fair? Now you're paying for the asset, and not for the development costs. And the guy is RFA when his current contract expires - usually between 19 and 22 - NOT 28.

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07-16-2013, 12:55 PM
  #119
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My only issue is when a player is under contract to a league and then leaves. Radulov or Kovalchuk.
There have been dozens of players who did that in the other direction (Europe to NA). I take it you have an issue with that too?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Do I think that leagues should be paid some sort of fee for their efforts in developing a player? Yes. However this talk of 500k or a million depending on where the player is drafted is insane. That's not based on how much effort the team put into the player, but how gifted the player was that they acquired.
Talented players are usually paid more, so yes it is based on how much effort the team put into the player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Negotiating with individual clubs is NOT the answer. Transfer fees like we see in football is asinine, and would not bode well for the parity that the league is trying to achieve. Nor would we see clubs looking for compensation for their development efforts... but compensation for the loss of an asset... which isn't right.
There is nothing asinine about the transfer fees we see in the football, it's a system that is used between hockey clubs in Europe, a system that is far superior to the one used between the NHL and IIHF clubs. And yes, it is about compensation for the loss of an asset, I fail to see what "isn't right" about it.

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07-16-2013, 01:13 PM
  #120
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Did we ever hear if NBC Olympic contract had a clause incase NHL hockey players don't show up in 2014 and/or 2018? They paid $775m for Russia and $963m for Korea, I wonder if that's based on the assumption of NHL talent, and if there's a clawback if the NHL doesn't show up? I don't know how much advertising revenue it generates on TV, but the ticket receipts alone were over 60$ million. This is not chump change, it's significant revenue for a 2 week event.

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07-16-2013, 01:16 PM
  #121
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I don't understand why the NHL enters player transfer agreements when it is more of a benefit to other nations in the first place. The NHL needs to realize that they are above the IIHF and if they want to dictate hockey then make the IIHF bow to them not the other way around. Start by lobbying and threatening until the World Championships get moved to start in June.

The Russian federation has no problem breaching contracts, why should the NHL?

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07-16-2013, 01:48 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Kloparren View Post
I don't understand why the NHL enters player transfer agreements when it is more of a benefit to other nations in the first place. The NHL needs to realize that they are above the IIHF and if they want to dictate hockey then make the IIHF bow to them not the other way around. Start by lobbying and threatening until the World Championships get moved to start in June.

The Russian federation has no problem breaching contracts, why should the NHL?
Well I think this is paving the way for a league run "World Cup" tourney to replace the Olympics as the premier best on best intl. tourney. The first thing to do is to end longtime grievences between the NHL and Euro leagues, such as compensation for European talent. A lot of Europeans are angry about seeing their best leave and go to the NHL, so even some token payments could go a long way to smoothing that over.

The revenues at stake are north of $100 million, currently all flowing to the IOC. The NHL and Euro leagues would be interested in that pie.

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07-16-2013, 02:24 PM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
I dont say it is real, but I am sure it is only solution.
Solution to what? I wasn't aware there was a problem.

Maybe this is a better question... What is the exact issue you're looking to solve? Do you not want to see European players in the NHL?

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07-16-2013, 02:52 PM
  #124
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Riptide

jekoh explained it at post #119, especially this bold part is important

Quote:
There is nothing asinine about the transfer fees we see in the football, it's a system that is used between hockey clubs in Europe, a system that is far superior to the one used between the NHL and IIHF clubs. And yes, it is about compensation for the loss of an asset, I fail to see what "isn't right" about it.
I have problem with following rules

1) no development fee for players under 18 yrs (or in soccer/basket for 22 if I know) who change league (country)

2) NHL does not respect euro contracts and does not pay euro clubs for players under contract (loosing assets). This 200/300 000 USD according to NHLPTA is not transfer fee because transfer fee is different case by case (quality of player, loosing assets).

I would have no problem with following NHLPTA

NHL respects euro contracts.

Yes, euro player can have NHL buyout clauses. Imagine, 3M USD buyout clause, if NHL club pays this 3M USD to euro club, euro contract is void and player can move to NHL.

Different from reality: Every euro contract is voided if NHL club pays 200/300 000 USD and it does not matter if euro player is superstar of bust. That is not fair because euro club loses assets. The player is still under contract! NJD fans does not like Kovy case, because he had deal for next 12 seasons and retired (to void contract) and go to KHL for free. Sure, not fair from him. But the same has happened with Euros. Many of them are/were under contract, Barkov or Nichushkin for sure, and only fixed sum from NHL is a reason why the euro contract is voided. Not every Euros is worth of 300 000 USD, some of them are worth of 1M or more. What would you say if NHLPTA was aplicable for euro clubs and canadians players? Lets say, KHL/SHL club has right to sign 18-20y old F Tyler Hall if KHL/SHL club pays 300 000 USD to NHL club. Does Hall has valid contract with Oilers for next XY years and Oilers does not want to void contract? Who cares! Once KHL/SHL club pays 300 000 USD to Oilers, Hall´s contract is voided and he can sign in KHL/SHL.Do you like this model? This is reality with euros coming to NHL. That is my problem.

If euro player does not have buy out clause Ok, NHL club waits until player is free agent. Does euro player have contract untill he is 25 yrs? Ok, NHL club waits. Or the player terminates the contract (and pay his euro club of course) or NHL club pays euro club (soccer model).

Hope you get it.

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07-16-2013, 02:56 PM
  #125
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Quote:
However, there has also been the obvious and easily-documented expenditure by Russian clubs on the salaries of these players and their preparation for the Russian national team for the World Championships and Olympic Games. According to conservative estimates, over the five years of the KHL’s existence, this adds up to 43 billion (!) rubles, or in the RIHF’s preferred currency, more than $1.3 billion.
I think that pretty much sums it up. KHL is looking not only for development compensation (which the NHL is willing to provide), but compensation for all expenses incurred. Overlooking the fact that the KHL teams also received the benefit of the player playing for them while paying him a salary. As such, the KHL was already compensated for this... they payed, and the player played for them.

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