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05-13-2013, 01:48 PM
  #326
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Originally Posted by Therick67 View Post
Kessel has been good, not great. I count 3 turnovers that ended up directly in the Leafs net.

Comapared to Seguin, he's been Gretzy, but I'm not ready to crown him yet..
I'm not sure you got my point, which was not that Kessel is better than Seguin, but rather "be careful what you wish for" when it comes to running wimpy offensive players out of town. It happened to Kessel and he looks pretty good to me. Meanwhile, the long knives are starting to come out for Seguin, at least from some quarters. Me, give me a great deal and we can talk, otherwise be glad we don't have to find several scoring forwards next year to replace those we're apparently ready to part ways with.

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05-13-2013, 01:52 PM
  #327
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
I would ask how many people are begrudgingly noticing that Kessel is playing well for Toronto in this series? He is playing well offensively. He is working hard and battling a bit more than you may remember. He's fast and dynamic and entertaining to watch. I know some people just hate him for whatever reasons. Me, I miss having him on the Bruins even while acknowledging that he is not the most well rounded player or dynamic personality off the ice. All he has done for Toronto is score 30+ goals every year, except this abbreviated season when he had 20, while steadily increasing his point totals too. Certainly he has been a factor in the playoffs.

I write that not in praise of Kessel but rather to wonder out loud what it would be like to watch Tyler Seguin from afar in years to come. Seguin is shaping up to be a similar player to Kessel. Offense first. Not very physical, not that gritty in the dirty areas, etc. I know some will blindly say that Seguin is better than Kessel, but c'mon. They are similar players on the surface, with respective plusses and minuses. Put it this way: What people complain about with Kessel may well be things you can consider complaining about when it comes to analyzing Seguin's game. But. BUT. With all that said, I think there's a larger thing going on that ultimately hurts the Bruins when it comes to making the most of players like Kessel or Seguin (and others).

They are what they are. They are not likely to be the well balanced in all aspects of the game, particularly those blue collar traits that seem to carry a premium around here. And it dogs them to the point where their basic value is called into question and they are either dealt or a trade is suggested/contemplated. Or they are marginalized on the team, which seems to happen a lot here. How many guys have been in Claude's doghouse this year? Seems like quite a few. A mythos has developed in Boston where if a player does not become great in the corners or great in his own end or strong defensively or willing to take the big hit, in addition to being really good offensively, that's not enough. Of course it's ideal when players continue to improve in those important parts of the game so you don't get to accuse me of giving anybody a free pass. There are many increments between terrible and excellent and the objective is obviously for a player to be on the right side of the threshold of minimum expectations or else he's a liability. But would you have called Kessel a liability? Seguin a liability? Savard? The cookie cutter mindset has ossified in my view. It seems like The System is of pre-eminent importance in Boston to the point that it sometimes filters out good players who have a lot to contribute, if from a more limited toolbox than the ideal calls for. Point is, those players can still be very valuable and important to have. And not having them can be detrimental.

But is it really so bad to be "one dimensional" (and I exaggerate that classification to make a point)? When you look around the league, how many players are out there that excel in most of the important aspects of the game? I mean, really good in every way? Well there are a couple. Most other guys are either average at most things or really good at one or a couple things. How many all-stars are great at offense and great at defense? How many "shut down defensemen" are great offensively? How many top point producing defensemen are hard rock defenders? How many 50 goal scorers shut down the other team's top scorers? Again, let's start with players excelling at something and make the most of that, while yes asking to round out their games, but without running them down for not fitting the mold that you believe every player has to fit inside.

Brian Burke talked about his expectations of players. He wanted his skill players to play a skill game and he wanted his role players to play their roles. Point being, he expected his players to do what they do well and to be what they are and it was his problem to assemble a team that balanced all the ingredients properly. I like that way of thinking better than a rigid view of what a "Bruins player" should be like and then slamming those who just don't fit the mold. Kessel suffered from that here. Seguin seems to be. I know I don't want to watch Seguin score 30 goals a year for somebody while we struggle to find our next 25 goal scorer (ala after trading Kessel). That does not mean at all that I would not consider trading Seguin if the right deal is out there and it clearly helps the Bruins with a problem area. I just resist the idea of trading Seguin, at this time, because he's not gritty enough or because of other limitations, real or perceived. He looks pretty good to me, but with work to do. If Seguin CAN'T get it done on the ice, and maybe next year is the year to really start judging that, then the questions about what to do with him become easier to answer.

Some of this then goes back to Chiarelli. If Seguin shows that he can excel in a certain way, but not at others, find a way to maximize that value without putting him in the doghouse constantly for what he does not do well. Again, not saying to give him a free pass, but you have to get the most out of these kind of guys, they are not that easy to obtain.

I guess the bottom line of this rambling post is to say that the Bruins seem to suffer sometimes from applying a rigid view about how players should play. It seems like every top 6 forward on this team has taken heat this year - some of that deserved no doubt. But have we not heard either some or a lot of grumbling about Horton, Seguin, Marchand, Lucic, Krejci and even Bergeron? At some point, I do have to wonder whether there is something else going on that skews things such that the value of these players is not maximized, it is lessened, along with their morale and confidence. Some of that is on the coach, some goes to media and fans, and some to the "organization," whoever that means. All I can say is that if Seguin never takes or throws a hit but scores 35 goals, I really don't care. He'll have to do the latter, but it'd be nice to celebrate it for a change rather than to list out the other things he does not do as well. Right now, he's making it somewhat easy to use him as a pinata. Eventually he will probably break out of this slump and then it will be interesting to see how his image settles in longer term.
Bravo...great post Kevin...

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05-13-2013, 01:57 PM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
Meanwhile, the long knives are starting to come out for Seguin, at least from some quarters.
I think it's only a small but vocal minority who would actually entertain moving a player like Seguin at this stage of his career. No one who really matters (i.e. the Bruins' front office) would entertain such thoughts until more than a few years down the road if he truly had plateaued at a lower level than expected.

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05-13-2013, 01:58 PM
  #329
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Kessel playoffs... .90 ppg.

Seguin playoffs....38 ppg..

And before anyone whines about his age, Kessel was a 1.00 ppg at Seguin's age..Really just hope Seguin can turn it up..I'd still be hesitant to trade them straight up for each other, but really impressed with Phil these play-offs..

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05-13-2013, 02:03 PM
  #330
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For what it's worth, Matt Duchene had a similar slump in his 3rd season. He put up 67 points (same numbers as Seguin) in his 2nd season and then dropped off to 28 in season 3. Granted he only played 58 games and was battling injuries, but the point stands. This season he had a major bounce-back year and was almost a point-per-game guy. I fully expect Seguin to do the same next year, but the difference is that this team needs Seguin to step up NOW where the Avs were not a playoff team and could afford to let Duchene work out the kinks.

Granted Duchene seems like the kind of guy who is far less distracted by off-ice ******** than Seguin is.

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05-13-2013, 02:05 PM
  #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Kessel playoffs... .90 ppg.

Seguin playoffs....38 ppg..

And before anyone whines about his age, Kessel was a 1.00 ppg at Seguin's age..Really just hope Seguin can turn it up..I'd still be hesitant to trade them straight up for each other, but really impressed with Phil these play-offs..
Patience is a virtue, and the folks involved in the day-to-day operation of a professional hockey team tend towards more of it than the fans. Fans are fickle; front offices usually are not. I don't see Seguin going anywhere for the foreseeable future. No doubt Chia and Claude see the same thing in Kessel as everyone else. I'm curious what their thoughts would be in his regard.

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05-13-2013, 02:06 PM
  #332
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Originally Posted by ReggieMoto View Post
I think it's only a small but vocal minority who would actually entertain moving a player like Seguin at this stage of his career. No one who really matters (i.e. the Bruins' front office) would entertain such thoughts until more than a few years down the road if he truly had plateaued at a lower level than expected.
Personally, I would entertain it for these 2 reasons, if either really apply: 1) a great opportunity presents itself and the player(s) on the table are too enticing to pass up thinking about, 2) the Bruins are locked in with a certain view of their system/style/players/roster and it becomes clear that Seguin is not an ideal fit or he's unhappy here, in which case you see if #1 is out there for you. In either case, you think long and hard before committing to anything, and I think you wonder out loud about where Claude's tenure is heading before you deal Seguin, if that is you believe Claude creates a glass ceiling on Seguin's growth.

I'm not compelled to move Seguin at all. Too soon. The wild card for me would be if a player like Malkin comes into play (doubtful but who knows), in which case Seguin would probably be part of a package to make a deal happen. Or if some possible-Norris-dman type comes into play but I'll leave it to others to construct that list.

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05-13-2013, 02:08 PM
  #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Kessel playoffs... .90 ppg.

Seguin playoffs....38 ppg..

And before anyone whines about his age, Kessel was a 1.00 ppg at Seguin's age..Really just hope Seguin can turn it up..I'd still be hesitant to trade them straight up for each other, but really impressed with Phil these play-offs..
Kessel also had Savard dishing him passes..

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05-13-2013, 02:08 PM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Kessel playoffs... .90 ppg.

Seguin playoffs....38 ppg..

And before anyone whines about his age, Kessel was a 1.00 ppg at Seguin's age..Really just hope Seguin can turn it up..I'd still be hesitant to trade them straight up for each other, but really impressed with Phil these play-offs..
Kessel's been awesome, but I'm not really surprised by that. He stepped his game up in the playoffs when he was here, too.

I will never understand the bad rap that kid gets from some B's fans for being a socially awkward dude who wanted to get paid his worth.

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05-13-2013, 02:09 PM
  #335
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
Personally, I would entertain it for these 2 reasons, if either really apply: 1) a great opportunity presents itself and the player(s) on the table are too enticing to pass up thinking about, 2) the Bruins are locked in with a certain view of their system/style/players/roster and it becomes clear that Seguin is not an ideal fit or he's unhappy here, in which case you see if #1 is out there for you. In either case, you think long and hard before committing to anything, and I think you wonder out loud about where Claude's tenure is heading before you deal Seguin, if that is you believe Claude creates a glass ceiling on Seguin's growth.

I'm not compelled to move Seguin at all. Too soon. The wild card for me would be if a player like Malkin comes into play (doubtful but who knows), in which case Seguin would probably be part of a package to make a deal happen. Or if some possible-Norris-dman type comes into play but I'll leave it to others to construct that list.
Malkin would be a huge boon and obviously I'd do that deal all-day, every day, but how telling would it be when Seguin goes to the Pens and puts up 90 points? It seems like every forward this team lets go ends up producing more on other teams and that has got to bother Cam and Chia a little bit.

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05-13-2013, 02:09 PM
  #336
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
For what it's worth, Matt Duchene had a similar slump in his 3rd season. He put up 67 points (same numbers as Seguin) in his 2nd season and then dropped off to 28 in season 3. Granted he only played 58 games and was battling injuries, but the point stands. This season he had a major bounce-back year and was almost a point-per-game guy. I fully expect Seguin to do the same next year, but the difference is that this team needs Seguin to step up NOW where the Avs were not a playoff team and could afford to let Duchene work out the kinks.

Granted Duchene seems like the kind of guy who is far less distracted by off-ice ******** than Seguin is.
Good point. There are any number of elite prospects that have had ups and downs over their first few years. Patrick Kane was being called into question and for some of the same reasons that Seguin seems to be sometimes (see: your comment above). One of my core complaints with Seguin is the Bruins using him at wing, but that seems like a non-starter to talk about here. Otherwise, I don't read tooooo much into his hide-and-seek production... yet.

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05-13-2013, 02:11 PM
  #337
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
Malkin would be a huge boon and obviously I'd do that deal all-day, every day, but how telling would it be when Seguin goes to the Pens and puts up 90 points? It seems like every forward this team lets go ends up producing more on other teams and that has got to bother Cam and Chia a little bit.
This is part of what I'm saying, reading between the lines maybe. It's time to wonder out loud whether the full offensive potential of some players is held back, or at least is underappreciated, in Boston.

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05-13-2013, 02:13 PM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Bruinswillwin77 View Post
Kessel also had Savard dishing him passes..
And Lucic clearing space for him.

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05-13-2013, 02:15 PM
  #339
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Kessel's been awesome, but I'm not really surprised by that. He stepped his game up in the playoffs when he was here, too.

I will never understand the bad rap that kid gets from some B's fans for being a socially awkward dude who wanted to get paid his worth.
I'll second that. It has always bothered me. I understand the imperfections of his game, but too often he is singled out for the wrong reasons IMO. Easy target. Ironically Kessel paved the way for many young players who came after him. Chiarelli became so afraid to have his hand forced again like that that he has been handing out big $ contracts to young players like candy. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Bruins do not have the turmoil every summer that some teams do, but I think it's hard to argue that Kessel softened up Chiarelli when it comes to dealing with the "next contract" for his young guns.

This has nothing to do with Kessel vs Seguin or whether or not the Bruins won that trade or whatever. It really has to do more with the microscope in Boston eventually turning to these types of players, probing for "now what's wrong with THIS guy?" You can tell a mile away who those players are likely to be.

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05-13-2013, 02:18 PM
  #340
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Originally Posted by Black Eye View Post
I'll second that. It has always bothered me. I understand the imperfections of his game, but too often he is singled out for the wrong reasons IMO. Easy target.

This has nothing to do with Kessel vs Seguin or whether or not the Bruins won that trade or whatever. It really has to do more with the microscope in Boston eventually turning to these types of players, probing for "now what's wrong with THIS guy?" You can tell a mile away who those players are likely to be.
It's honestly bizarre. Sure, it'd be nice if every guy had the compete level and zone awareness of a Patrice Bergeron, but you need guys like Kessel to win championships, too.

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05-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #341
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Kessel also had Savard dishing him passes..
He has done pretty well for himself without Savard and Lucic. He wasn't on that line in 2008 and obviously not this year either. The guy clearly steps it up in the postseason and it's just trivializing the truth to suggest that Savard and Lucic are the reason he has produced in the playoffs throughout his career.

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05-13-2013, 02:20 PM
  #342
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
He has done pretty well for himself without Savard and Lucic. He wasn't on that line in 2008 and obviously not this year either. The guy clearly steps it up in the postseason and it's just trivializing the truth to suggest that Savard and Lucic are the reason he has produced in the playoffs throughout his career.
True, he did make that 2nd goal last night look easy. Frustrating to see when you watch the Bruins not even being able to buy a goal if that was possible.

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05-13-2013, 02:26 PM
  #343
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While we're glorifying Kessel here, and I know some people will interpret it that way (wrongly), all I'm saying is, let's appreciate what we have when thinking about what we don't like about player X, Y, Z. As always, make good deals when they present themselves, but don't throw out the baby with the bath water. That applies to Seguin and Lucic too, when it was his turn behind the woodshed prior to the playoffs.

I'm as guilty of this as anybody, I'm just reminded to take a broader view when I watch Kessel doing well for another team. We got lucky with that trade but it does not always work out so well when you dump an imperfect player. Once upon a time Tyler Seguin's name was Rick Middleton and ask the Rangers how that worked out for them when they moved on from him.

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05-13-2013, 02:28 PM
  #344
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Originally Posted by RussellmaniaKW View Post
For what it's worth, Matt Duchene had a similar slump in his 3rd season. He put up 67 points (same numbers as Seguin) in his 2nd season and then dropped off to 28 in season 3. Granted he only played 58 games and was battling injuries, but the point stands. This season he had a major bounce-back year and was almost a point-per-game guy. I fully expect Seguin to do the same next year, but the difference is that this team needs Seguin to step up NOW where the Avs were not a playoff team and could afford to let Duchene work out the kinks.

Granted Duchene seems like the kind of guy who is far less distracted by off-ice ******** than Seguin is.
Duchene was pretty plagued by injuries that year though, but I agree, good point

Its funny, I thought the third year was usually a players breakout year in most cases

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05-13-2013, 02:31 PM
  #345
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Originally Posted by WhamBamCam8 View Post
Kessel playoffs... .90 ppg.

Seguin playoffs....38 ppg..

And before anyone whines about his age, Kessel was a 1.00 ppg at Seguin's age..Really just hope Seguin can turn it up..I'd still be hesitant to trade them straight up for each other, but really impressed with Phil these play-offs..
Marc Savard.

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05-13-2013, 02:32 PM
  #346
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Duchene was pretty plagued by injuries that year though, but I agree, good point

Its funny, I thought the third year was usually a players breakout year in most cases
I'm not making excuses for Seguin but 1) this is a weird season and, 2) there does seem to be something larger to the Bruins funk than just talking about Tyler. Maybe we'll get a better read next year

The other thing with Seguin's situation is that he won a Cup in his first year, plays in a town where he is more of a celebrity, and he's filthy rich. At age 21. Maybe like Patrick Kane, that's just a lot to mature into at such a young age. Obviously I have no real insight into that but it would hardly be surprising. And I would emphasize that it's not like he stinks or anything. Some things aren't coming easily to him lately but it does feel like he could break out almost any night.

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05-13-2013, 02:34 PM
  #347
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Duchene was pretty plagued by injuries that year though, but I agree, good point

Its funny, I thought the third year was usually a players breakout year in most cases
Seguin's breakout year was last year: scratching at 30 goals and leading the team offensively. I agree with Black Eye, this was a funny season. His trip overseas really messed with his game, reinforcing what he doesn't need to work on and letting his weaknesses grow.

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05-13-2013, 02:36 PM
  #348
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What do you guys think the ceiling would have been for a healthy, kept together Lucic-Savard-Kessel line? Pretty sweet, no?

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05-13-2013, 02:41 PM
  #349
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What do you guys think the ceiling would have been for a healthy, kept together Lucic-Savard-Kessel line? Pretty sweet, no?
They would have tore it up for sure. But Kessel leaving paved the way for some very key parts to the Cup run. And wouldn't trade that for anything.

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05-13-2013, 02:42 PM
  #350
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What do you guys think the ceiling would have been for a healthy, kept together Lucic-Savard-Kessel line? Pretty sweet, no?
Makes me sad to think about, actually...

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