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Old
05-10-2005, 04:19 PM
  #26
sparr0w
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Jennings doesnt mean crap. It's a team award. Only Vezina trophies mean you're the best goalie. And of course if you win a hart or a pearson or a conn smythe it means you're the best player in general.
From '81 on anyway.

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05-10-2005, 04:26 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Jennings doesnt mean crap. It's a team award. Only Vezina trophies mean you're the best goalie. And of course if you win a hart or a pearson or a conn smythe it means you're the best player in general.
Last time I checked a goalie is part of the team. one Vezina and two of his Conn Smythes came with that gear. Guess that means he was the best huh?

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05-10-2005, 04:27 PM
  #28
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The size of the players today was a direct result of Eric Lindros.

Teams looked for big defenseman that could handle Lindros, at the time he was drafted very few teams had more than one defenseman of size that could handle him. As defenseman around the league starting getting bigger and stronger teams looked for bigger forwards to help combat the ever growing defenseman.

Hopefully some of the new rules and thinking will help to allow the small, skilled players thrive again, because at the current rate the small player has to be extraordinarily skilled to even get a sniff.

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05-10-2005, 04:32 PM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
The size of the players today was a direct result of Eric Lindros.

Teams looked for big defenseman that could handle Lindros, at the time he was drafted very few teams had more than one defenseman of size that could handle him. As defenseman around the league starting getting bigger and stronger teams looked for bigger forwards to help combat the ever growing defenseman.

Hopefully some of the new rules and thinking will help to allow the small, skilled players thrive again, because at the current rate the small player has to be extraordinarily skilled to even get a sniff.
Good point. Lindros also probably influenced a lot of teams to take big guys who turned out to be busts because of the whole "You can't teach size" mantra.

He probablyeven influenced how teams used big men as scorers rather than diggers in the corners and on the boards. Guys like Leclair and Tkachuk probably wouldn't have flourished had they not been turned loose in reaction to what Eric could do.

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05-10-2005, 04:51 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
How do you know Hall was the leagues best goalie 7 times?
Check the records for the post-season all stars. He is the only goalie to ever be the 1st team all star 7 times.

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05-10-2005, 04:52 PM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Jennings doesnt mean crap. It's a team award. Only Vezina trophies mean you're the best goalie. And of course if you win a hart or a pearson or a conn smythe it means you're the best player in general.
I agree that the Jennings is a team award. The Vezina since 1982 and the first team all star goalie are the evidence of the best goalie in the NHL year by year. Conn Smythes and Hart Trophies are evidence of that, as well.

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05-10-2005, 08:59 PM
  #32
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I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

Jacques Plante and the Goalie Mask.

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05-11-2005, 11:32 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kdb209
I'm surprised no one has mentioned it yet.

Jacques Plante and the Goalie Mask.
Plante made the mask an every day piece of equipment but, Clint Benedict was the first to use a mask.

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05-11-2005, 11:37 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
Plante made the mask an every day piece of equipment but, Clint Benedict was the first to use a mask.
for what a game? 2 games? First to use it, but not really.

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05-11-2005, 11:41 AM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
for what a game? 2 games? First to use it, but not really.
I guess because that happened so long ago, it can't really be considered. That era should be stricken from the record books, shouldn't it?

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05-11-2005, 12:48 PM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thornton97
I often think about who was most revolutionary to the game of hockey...probably because my choice would be Bobby Orr and what he did basically creating the need for a whole new type of defenseman. Some others that often come to mind are Patrick Roy for his revolutionary "butterfly" which has spawned an entire generation of goaltenders. Gordie Howe/Bobby Hull are in there too with curved blades which made shots harder and more accurate.

What are some other names out there that have most changed the game? Who has changed the game the most?
I would go with Orr overall.

It was Glen Hall who developed the butterfly style of goaltending.
http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hall.html
Quote:
In his time in the minors, Hall perfected his style of goaltending, a rather awkward but effective combination of flopping and standing his ground. Purists who liked their goalkeepers to remain upright hated the way Hall would throw himself to the ice to block the lower corners of the net. Hall had the ability to splay his pads along the ice with his knees practically together in what is referred to today as "the butterfly style."
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...page=bio&list=

Another goalie to be considered as revolutionizing the position would be Emile "The Cat" Francis" who introduced the trapper and blocker to the NHL.

Quote:
Glove and Blocker
Emile "the Cat" Francis is credited with the creation of the goaltender's gloves. Originally, goaltenders wore the same gloves as the forwards' gauntlets. However, when Francis skated to the New York Rangers net in the 1943-44 season, using a first baseman's baseball glove, he changed the game. Although the new equipment was immediately protested, NHL President Clarence Campbell gave official approval and the "catcher" or "trapper" was born. The glove would morph over the years, but the design today is very similar to the original glove. Francis can also take credit for introducing the "blocker." He taped an outer layer of sponge rubber to his stick hand gauntlet. This quickly evolved into a full leather glove padded with felt, sponge and eventually shatterproof plexiglass.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...=gallery&list=
http://www.legendsofhockey.net:8080/...ry&pic=3&list=

The curved blade was developed by Andy Bathgate.
http://www.edu.pe.ca/vrcs/studentwor...yb/Hockey.html
Here is Rod Gilbert's explanation:

"Stan Mikita tends to take credit for the curved stick. But I remember Bathgate being the first one heating his stick and putting it under a door and putting a little curve in it. Mikita borrowed one of Bathgate's sticks in Chicago, scored a hat trick in the third period and then he started to do it too."

It was an Andy Bathgate slapshot which would result in a severe facial injury to Jacques Plante during a game which caused Plante to come back in the game wearing his mask.

However Plante was not the first NHL goalie to wear a mask, that honour belongs to Clint Benedict. On January 7th, 1930, Howie Morenz fired a shot at the Montreal Maroons net and Clint Benedict took the full force of the shot in the face, breaking his nose and cheekbone. When Benedict returned to the Montreal net, he was sporting a makeshift mask. Primarily made of leather, it resembled a boxing face guard. The experiment only lasted two games; Benedict had great difficulty seeing around the thick nosepiece and he discarded it.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/htmlg...masks004.htm#x

BTW this Johny Bower mask (the Louch mask developed by Delbert Louch on 1956 of St. Catherines, Ont) did not catch on - it continually fogged up.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/htmlg...masks007.htm#x

Jacques Plante also tried the Louch Mask before settling on the fibreglass mask.
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/htmlg...masks009.htm#x

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Old
05-11-2005, 01:01 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Bernie Geoffrion who created the slap shot.
The Canadiens of old and the Oilers of the 80-s (powerplay type)
And the one guy I hate to mention, Jacques Lemaire (the defensive minded game)
The first NHL player to use the slap shot was HHOF member "Bun" Cook back in thew mid 1930's with the Rangers. Alex Shibicky played with Cook on the rangers and says he learned it from Cook.

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05-14-2005, 03:30 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster
The first NHL player to use the slap shot was HHOF member "Bun" Cook back in thew mid 1930's with the Rangers. Alex Shibicky played with Cook on the rangers and says he learned it from Cook.
Thats the first time ive heard that. Everytime ive read or seen something on the slapshot ive seen it attributed to geoffrion. As far as the first soviet to suit up in the NHL it was pryakhin. I know the LA Kings had a player by the name nechayev that played a few games for them in 82-83. not sure if he was the first one either.

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Old
05-16-2005, 01:05 PM
  #39
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I can't believe no one meantioned Roger Nielson...

watching the games and scouting players.. come on..

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05-16-2005, 04:53 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by joepeps
I can't believe no one meantioned Roger Nielson...

watching the games and scouting players.. come on..
Good call. Captain Video lives on...

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05-16-2005, 05:44 PM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I guess because that happened so long ago, it can't really be considered. That era should be stricken from the record books, shouldn't it?
It should be looked at cautiously instead of taking everything at face value. If that is what you mean then I agree 100%.

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05-16-2005, 05:52 PM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
It should be looked at cautiously instead of taking everything at face value. If that is what you mean then I agree 100%.
LOL.

Are you saying that, because it was so long ago, it might not have really happened?

I really don't think that the world was completely incompetent in the 20s and couldn't actually record what was going on. They even had newspapers, if you can believe it!

Just discounting everything from before your time, is wrong. This is not the first generation of civilized existence.

You don't seem to respect history. Did the Canucks really make the finals in '82? That happened over 20 years ago, maybe it is all a hoax?

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05-16-2005, 06:09 PM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
I guess because that happened so long ago, it can't really be considered. That era should be stricken from the record books, shouldn't it?
Are you sure you don't have some sort of complex?

He didn't say anything about when either player played. Benedict WAS a pioneer more for what he did relating to dropping down. As the guy said, "for what, 2 games", which is just about how many I understand he actually wore masks in. Plante made it not only feasible, but acceptable (which is what you initially said, yes).


Last edited by Paxon: 05-16-2005 at 06:15 PM.
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05-16-2005, 06:11 PM
  #44
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I did happen there is no one denying that, but there wasn't the advanced statistics tracking methods that they have today, and as a result it is possible that the statistics were comprimised. This would be compounded by the fact that there was no video or any way to backcheck. I suggest you read of the instances where in the early years the NHL has attempted to go back and explain the inconsistancies (which is documented in Total Hockey) and has at least from my interpretation discovered it is hard, if not impossible to do. It wasn't completely organized as it is today where all the statistics can be added at the click of a button. Sorry to burst your bubble there.

But the thing is it is hard to judge the validity of statistics when that is all they are, statistics. There is no video footage, there is nothing really to outline or show the story behind the statistics. Dave Brown scored 55 goals or something like that, under your system that makes him as valuable as a player who scored 55 goals in the same era but did so without riding shotgun for Lemieux. Really not a fair way to judge players in my opinion, and then to insult other lists and call them stupid (at least that is what I think you did for the hockey news list because they didn't follow your method of gathering statistics. There are just so many holes, and things that you can't quantify especially with statistical evidence which one could certanly argue is questionable, and a lack of any further empirical evidence, and then the many variables (which you haven't explained) which must be accounted for, and also the fact that you know next to nothing about the players past their statistics. You are trying to tell me that a 5'7 Denneny would be able to match up against some of the larger players throughout history, even if you were to add some inches on to represent society and whatnot, he would still be undersized.


Last edited by Frightened Inmate #2: 05-16-2005 at 06:18 PM.
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Old
05-16-2005, 06:18 PM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Benton Fraser
I did happen there is no one denying that, but there wasn't the advanced statistics tracking methods that they have today, and as a result it is possible that the statistics were comprimised. This would be compounded by the fact that there was no video or any way to backcheck. I suggest you read of the instances where in the early years the NHL has attempted to go back and explain the inconsistancies (which is documented in Total Hockey) and has at least from my interpretation discovered it is hard, if not impossible to do. It wasn't completely organized as it is today where all the statistics can be added at the click of a button. Sorry to burst your bubble there.
They did the best they could with what they had. Saying that their best is not good enough is not how I choose to look at it. Their best is their best, I will accept it.

Our best today is our best. Is it crap because we will have better technology in 100 years?

Take the best available info and analyze it. That is my philosophy. If you choose to discard it, you are missing out, IMO.

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05-16-2005, 06:21 PM
  #46
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You can't quantify everything though, especially qualitative factors. I might be missing out you are right, but hell you don't know the players beyond their statistical achievements each year, and even then you only use selective measures, which would be at least in my opinion to create a list which you feel is great, not a list that is great.

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05-17-2005, 10:47 PM
  #47
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Kjell Samuelsson for his height. He was a imposing player at a time when it wasn't very common to see a man of his stature. Obviously he wasn't as skilled as true revolutionary players like Bobby Orr but he was an imposing force and helped pave the way for tall players.

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05-18-2005, 10:34 AM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogopogo
They did the best they could with what they had. Saying that their best is not good enough is not how I choose to look at it. Their best is their best, I will accept it.

Our best today is our best. Is it crap because we will have better technology in 100 years?

Take the best available info and analyze it. That is my philosophy. If you choose to discard it, you are missing out, IMO.
No, but it will be crap in 100 years. However, the difference in reliability between today's stats and those we will have in 100 years (assuming there is an NHL at that time) won't be as great as the difference between them and stats from the earliest days of the NHL. That's the main point he was getting across.

You're right though that what is there is what is there and you just have to put your faith in those old stats and accounts as best you can.

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05-18-2005, 11:02 AM
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Paxon
No, but it will be crap in 100 years. However, the difference in reliability between today's stats and those we will have in 100 years (assuming there is an NHL at that time) won't be as great as the difference between them and stats from the earliest days of the NHL. That's the main point he was getting across.

You're right though that what is there is what is there and you just have to put your faith in those old stats and accounts as best you can.
I disagree on your point that the difference will be less in the future.

The difference in stats today vs. stats in 100 years could be much greater than the 20s to today. You just look at the technology developed in the past 25 years and it is amazing. Can you imagine living without the internet today?

In 100 years things will be so radically different, 2005 will look worse than 1920 looks to us today. People in 2105 will laugh at what hicks we are. There could be sensors in sticks that automatically record goals and assists. The video technology could be so great that a referreing mistake would NEVER be made. All new data will be collected by sensors built into the equipment. No subjectivity in measuring hits - the jersey will count them itself.

So, discounting the NHL's early years as 'unreliable' is very wrong, IMO. We have to trust the best records they have as accurate and treat it accordingly. In 100 years, our methods today will look like a joke.

That is how I see it.

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05-18-2005, 12:27 PM
  #50
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Clint Benedict was also prone to falling down to make a save and making it look like he'd fallen, not dove. That (from other goalies as well) led to the NHL allowing goalies to dive to make saves. It's also why he got the nickname 'Praying Benny'

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