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Trade Rumours and Proposals Thread Part 17: What does "bold" mean?

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Old
05-21-2013, 11:33 AM
  #876
doubledown99
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Originally Posted by RustE View Post
No. It's because we understand that this team is 5 good players away from being a playoff team and 8 away from being a cup contender. It will take the sacrifice of at least one of the big 5 to do this

This was Tambo's downfall.. he couldn't part with any player that even had the potential to be good, even tho his team as a group was barely NHL calibre.

Too many Oilers fans are falling victim to the 'you never trade a player that good' paralysis. Columbus traded their franchise player for 3 good players and they got better. Have a seat an a smoke and ponder one for a bit.
And this is the issue I have with this thinking....so CLB traded their star player and got 3 good players and improved. Even if they got to the playoffs were they a cup contender?

NO! Trading away Eberle or any of the other core pieces may or may not improve the club but I can guarantee that in either case we aren't winning a cup. In order to win a cup you need elite talent. We have 5 good pieces in Nuge, Hall, Ebs, Yak and JS. If the goal is to win a cup, you keep these pieces and fill out the rest of the roster to help the core.

Elite talent is the hardest thing to acquire. I figured most Oiler fans would understand this after what we have gone through for the last 20 years. Now that we have it you want to move it for lesser pieces?

Unless we are trading elite talent for elite talent, no way in trading any of the core pieces

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Old
05-21-2013, 11:37 AM
  #877
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
And this is the issue I have with this thinking....so CLB traded their star player and got 3 good players and improved. Even if they got to the playoffs were they a cup contender?

NO! Trading away Eberle or any of the other core pieces may or may not improve the club but I can guarantee that in either case we aren't winning a cup. In order to win a cup you need elite talent. We have 5 good pieces in Nuge, Hall, Ebs, Yak and JS. If the goal is to win a cup, you keep these pieces and fill out the rest of the roster to help the core.

Elite talent is the hardest thing to acquire. I figured most Oiler fans would understand this after what we have gone through for the last 20 years. Now that we have it you want to move it for lesser pieces?

Unless we are trading elite talent for elite talent, no way in trading any of the core pieces
It is Edmonton's cycle.

fail with mediocre players -> trade everything and suck bad enough to get elite prospects -> trade prospects for bundles of mediocre players -> fail with mediocre players -> repeat as needed

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05-21-2013, 11:41 AM
  #878
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Horcoff can bridge the #2C hole until our draft pick is ready.
Agreed. He's good for 20 goals and probably 60 points in that role. He's also a great face off guy so there is that .

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05-21-2013, 11:48 AM
  #879
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Originally Posted by BowDangles View Post
Voracek, an 8th overall and a third for Jeff Carter.

Voracek at the time had 38, 50 and 46 point seasons and was still young with a lot of time to improve. I think his value at the time is similar to what Gagner's is right now with the new cap coming into play.

This is how I see it from Voracek's value at that time in respect to Oilers of now.

MPS/Hemsky < Vorcek
Gagner = Voracek

Our 7th is better that the 8th but when it gets down to it, there isn't much difference in value, only a late pick...

So I think for a #1C it would take something like Gagner, 7th overall and a 2nd/3rd. But that team would need to be willing to trade their 1st line centre like Philli was..
I don't know exactly what it will get us, but to say we don't have resources to make trades isn't accurate.

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05-21-2013, 11:51 AM
  #880
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I don't know exactly what it will get us, but to say we don't have resources to make trades isn't accurate.
Edmonton does have the resources but it would take almost all of their top available assets to get a #1C leaving them with a ton of un filled holes.

I think they should be more focused on finding good defence man than chasing after top line centres..

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05-21-2013, 11:53 AM
  #881
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Originally Posted by doubledown99 View Post
Elite talent is the hardest thing to acquire. I figured most Oiler fans would understand this after what we have gone through for the last 20 years. Now that we have it you want to move it for lesser pieces?

Unless we are trading elite talent for elite talent, no way in trading any of the core pieces
I agree.

And if, as management says, the big 5 are not the problem, then one can easily surmise that our bottom 6 IS a problem - and that includes Horcoff and Smyth.

Any GM worth his salt should be able to adequately fill out a bottom 6 without having to give up elite talent.

The one thing that might be hard to get that I think we need is a top pairing Dman. I believe that all of Smid, Petry, and J Schultz are solid top 4 guys - but we would need one more, ideally a defensive stud with a good breakout pass. Run a 3rd pairing of N Schultz (who I'm not really a fan of) and Klefbom (assuming he makes the team out of camp)

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05-21-2013, 11:55 AM
  #882
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Originally Posted by Hoogaar23 View Post
I agree.

And if, as management says, the big 5 are not the problem, then one can easily surmise that our bottom 6 IS a problem - and that includes Horcoff and Smyth.

Any GM worth his salt should be able to adequately fill out a bottom 6 without having to give up elite talent.

The one thing that might be hard to get that I think we need is a top pairing Dman. I believe that all of Smid, Petry, and J Schultz are solid top 4 guys - but we would need one more, ideally a defensive stud with a good breakout pass. Run a 3rd pairing of N Schultz (who I'm not really a fan of) and Klefbom (assuming he makes the team out of camp)
If they can get a true #1 guy than I am okay with using Klefbom at the beginning of the year, assuming he has what it takes.

If they do not get anybody or just acquire some bottom feeder d men than I think they should start Klefbom in the AHL instead of exposing him to a heavy work load like they did with J Schultz this year..

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05-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #883
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Originally Posted by BowDangles View Post
Edmonton does have the resources but it would take almost all of their top available assets to get a #1C leaving them with a ton of un filled holes.

I think they should be more focused on finding good defence man than chasing after top line centres..
Well, we have this year's 1st which I believe is a huge chip. Next year's 1st would likely be a big part of a package to get a solid player in here. Prospects like Rajala who are lighting it up but we don't appear to have any room for...I dunno, I'm not a GM, but if the only way you can get bottom 6 guys and a Top dman is by using your elite talent, I don't think you're very good at your job.

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05-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #884
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Agreed. He's good for 20 goals and probably 60 points in that role. He's also a great face off guy so there is that .
Gagner couldnt give us those things so its all good. And Horcoff is much better defensively.

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05-21-2013, 11:56 AM
  #885
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Originally Posted by BowDangles View Post
Edmonton does have the resources but it would take almost all of their top available assets to get a #1C leaving them with a ton of un filled holes.

I think they should be more focused on finding good defence man than chasing after top line centres..
I was just using Carter as an example of what it takes to get good players. Can't tell me there isn't a decent d-man available for Gagner/Prv+ the 1st. Also have next year's first. Could look at something like Petry+ for a 5mil d-man that is far better from a team looking to cut salary.

I also don't expect them to be bringing in too many high end players anyway. A lot of what we need is depth and complimentary players.

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Old
05-21-2013, 12:08 PM
  #886
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Originally Posted by joestevens29 View Post
I was just using Carter as an example of what it takes to get good players. Can't tell me there isn't a decent d-man available for Gagner/Prv+ the 1st. Also have next year's first. Could look at something like Petry+ for a 5mil d-man that is far better from a team looking to cut salary.

I also don't expect them to be bringing in too many high end players anyway. A lot of what we need is depth and complimentary players.
This is true for the forward group... not so much the D... The way I see our D is as follows:

Top pairing - no body
top 4 - Smid,Petry, J Schultz
Bottom Pairing - N. Schultz
Press box - Potter

So under these circumstances they are going to need to sign/trade for at least 1 top pairing guy and use J Schultz as his partner.
Sign/trade for one other D man, hopefully a top 4 guy to push everyone down in the depth chart.

For the Oilers to go into next year and assume that Marcinin or Klefbom can step into the line up next year is a gigantic risk... If they fail to do so and MacT does not get anyone this summer than our D will be terrible and this team will not improve..

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05-21-2013, 12:12 PM
  #887
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It should also be noted that when Howson traded Nash, it was after Nash had been a Blue Jacket for 10 years and it had become abundantly clear that the marriage between them was never going to bear fruit.

The time may very well come when the Oilers will have to trade one or more of their Big Four (or is it Five?), but that time is not (or at least should not) be now.

IMO the goal for the Oilers in 2013/14 should not to be to move Heaven and Earth in an frantic attempt to turn this team into a Cup Contender in the space of one offseason. It should be to make smart, measured moves to get this team into the playoffs, and go from there.

It's my belief that with Hall, RNH, Eberle and Yakupov, we don't really know what we have in them yet. We need to show a bit more patience with them.

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05-21-2013, 12:15 PM
  #888
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everything changes if we can snag a top pairing dman.

New guy - Petry
J Shultz - Smid
Shultz - Klefbom/Potter/Marincin

If that happens, then we are in good shape next year. The rest of the roster is quite fixable.

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05-21-2013, 12:17 PM
  #889
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Originally Posted by BowDangles View Post
This is true for the forward group... not so much the D... The way I see our D is as follows:

Top pairing - no body
top 4 - Smid,Petry, J Schultz
Bottom Pairing - N. Schultz
Press box - Potter

So under these circumstances they are going to need to sign/trade for at least 1 top pairing guy and use J Schultz as his partner.
Sign/trade for one other D man, hopefully a top 4 guy to push everyone down in the depth chart.

For the Oilers to go into next year and assume that Marcinin or Klefbom can step into the line up next year is a gigantic risk... If they fail to do so and MacT does not get anyone this summer than our D will be terrible and this team will not improve..
Acquiring a serviceable top 4 guy shouldn't be hard. The top pairing guy is really going to be the tough one, but I do think we have the assets to get one. We've done it before. I agree on the bottom paragraph.

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05-21-2013, 12:23 PM
  #890
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Originally Posted by Beerfish View Post
Agreed. He's good for 20 goals and probably 60 points in that role. He's also a great face off guy so there is that .
OMG

Horcoff will never come close to 60 points again. He was less than 50% on draws this year. He is slow, doesn't hit, doesn't score enough blackhole into a void of never ending suck.

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05-21-2013, 12:30 PM
  #891
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Originally Posted by ZenOil View Post
OMG

Horcoff will never come close to 60 points again. He was less than 50% on draws this year. He is slow, doesn't hit, doesn't score enough blackhole into a void of never ending suck.

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05-21-2013, 12:31 PM
  #892
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Originally Posted by ZenOil View Post
OMG

Horcoff will never come close to 60 points again. He was less than 50% on draws this year. He is slow, doesn't hit, doesn't score enough blackhole into a void of never ending suck.
I agree, to a certain extent. Sure he can't hit 60 points and 20 goals but the "black hole in the void of never-ending suck" is maybe taking it a bit too far?

I also think he wouldn't make a good 2C, hopefully Monahan could fill that up. Gagner isn't bad for it either.

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05-21-2013, 12:49 PM
  #893
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Originally Posted by ZenOil View Post
OMG

Horcoff will never come close to 60 points again. He was less than 50% on draws this year. He is slow, doesn't hit, doesn't score enough blackhole into a void of never ending suck.
Give Horc a break. He's still not over playing against the toughest competition 2 seasons ago. I think there is a 1 year lag of becoming productive again when you stop playing the toughest minutes.

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05-21-2013, 12:51 PM
  #894
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Originally Posted by ZenOil View Post
OMG

Horcoff will never come close to 60 points again. He was less than 50% on draws this year. He is slow, doesn't hit, doesn't score enough blackhole into a void of never ending suck.
He can easily score 60 points, 25 goals, be plus 20 and be 55% or better on the dot if they just give him a chance.

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05-21-2013, 12:57 PM
  #895
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Originally Posted by ZenOil View Post
OMG

Horcoff will never come close to 60 points again. He was less than 50% on draws this year. He is slow, doesn't hit, doesn't score enough blackhole into a void of never ending suck.
Is some one seriously suggesting we get rid of Gagner and keep Horcoff.... epic

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05-21-2013, 01:19 PM
  #896
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At first I was like, "Beerfish, what the hell are you talking about?"

Then I saw what was going on. Well played, sir!

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05-21-2013, 01:23 PM
  #897
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Is some one seriously suggesting we get rid of Gagner and keep Horcoff.... epic
Gagner GAON/60... 3.24
Horcoff GAON/60... 1.85

Gagner GFON/60... 2.71
Horcoff GFON/60... 3.19


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05-21-2013, 01:25 PM
  #898
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Gagner GAON/60... 3.24
Horcoff GAON/60... 1.85

Gagner GFON/60... 2.71
Horcoff GFON/60... 3.19

where is your avatar?

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05-21-2013, 01:26 PM
  #899
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where is your avatar?
Did you check your behind?

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05-21-2013, 01:28 PM
  #900
joestevens29
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Originally Posted by I am the Liquor View Post
Did you check your behind?


So you start a thread, lose your bet and won't go through with the wager that you proposed.

Nice to know.

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